March Madness

[Ballyhoo]

Don't know about pike but seen it often with walleye and sauger on early ice when you can see through the ice. I have seen dead fish just under the ice.

I know everyone is thinking that a boat livewell does nothing for making the fish stronger. I can see where this one would. Actual fresh cold water, not warm summer water pumped into an aluminum heat tank.

We all can argue the legality, morality of this issue but I know several of these guys and know for a fact that they would not have done this if they thought there was a chance that they were doing the fish harm.

[jerkbait]

What JKB said. Also doesn't the law state as long as you are below your daily limit that you can cull as many fish as you want? Isn't that why tournament limits are always one below the legal limit? So they atre able to cull. By there understanding they were within the law.

[Sergio M]

Nice fish guys. I don't see what the issue is with there live well good idea. I don't see anyone complaining about the BASS TOURNAMENTS that fish all day and have fish in the live well then release them at the end of the day.

[Handsonthepole]

Good thread and now I know why I am so interested and irritated as some don't know what they are talking about. First of all these fishermen were "sorting" not "culling". Culling implies you generally intend to kill what is being taken from the group because it is inferior. Not always but most of the time. Secondly, it is a proven fact that mortality rates increase significantly when you are sorting from a livewell regardless of how it is being maintained. Why do you think there is so much controversy surrounding tournament fishing? Jbeck33 and his friends should research this so they know the proper way to handle those fish and reduce the chances of mortality. No reason for anyone to throw punches at each other but instead to help educate. Obviously this thread has gotten off topic somewhat. Great fish guys but take the time to learn how to handle them so we can all enjoy in the future.

[Hoffer]

OK...so I am not posting this to further raise any feathers.

Do I know that sometimes fish will not "come to" when released directly down the hole? yes. I have witnessed that on clear ice and also on the underwater camera. My question back is...do you know that their method of keeping the fish in the manner they did hurt them worse than letting them go directly down the hole?

Its just my humble opinion - but it seems giving the fish a chance to settle down a bit in fresh cold circulating water coming in directly from the lake under them wouldnt have done them any harm. I think a good argument could be made that at the very least it would be equal to any other way of handling them. I am no scientist or biologist - so I cannot support those facts. I am just trying to use common sense to look at it. I do know that when a bigger Muskie is caught or even a bigger walleye - many fisherman will hold them by the tail in the water and fan them back and forth to circulate oxygen in the gills after the fight. They dont just plop them right back in the water and hope they swim away. Is this any different? It just seems that it would actually be a better way to handle them. Again, I have no data to support that - its just a hunch.

[Hoffer]

Oops. Also wanted to mention to Scaup that I totally agree with you on the livewell thing. Most fish are damaged in a livewell and its not the best way to handle a fish especially if you are intending to ultimately release them.

However, what these guys did in my opinion was to create a little mini lake. I dont think its even close to compare the conditions of a boat livewell in the Summer heat with 75 degree water to the conditions the fish had in their little holding pen on the ice. They had cold circulating water that was the same as the water beneath them - just separated by a little ice. Very different than a livewell in a boat.

[MontanaMax]

Come on guys, use your experiences as a guide. Have you ever seen what a revived 3 lb northern in a live well does when you try to remove it? It thrashes wildly, injures itself, and fights again to exhaustion unless caught by a lucky grab. Did these big girls came out of the water again willingly? Do we have studies on mortality with repeated handling, no matter how careful or gentle, showing whether it is beneficial to a released fish? Do DNR employees return stripped walleyes immediately back to waters without further handling or do they pen them up for future handling and photo ops? If this practice improved fish mortatlity I would think DNR would encourage the practice. And how would we know 12 hours after release whether any of these fish died? Do you think this practice repeated dozens if not hundreds of times next winter will have a beneficial effect on the fishery?

My point is not to condemn what was done or those involved, but encourage reflection and consideration whether it should repeated. I'm sure dozens of people, like myself, would love to go with you next spring not to fish, but just to watch and take your photos, and even photoshop individual catches into group photos if you like. Win-win?

[Handsonthepole]

Montana Max is correct when implying it is doubful those fish came back out of that hole willingly not to mention the slime layer that protects those fish was rubbed off possibly bringing on disease and stress issues. Hopefully everyone has some better insight on this. Definitely a productive conversation! : )

[Wallsniffer]

The fact that these guys did not break any actual laws makes this thread sort of comical! Everyone is preaching to the choir about what the best practices are in their own opinion. If there were actual rights and wrongs in this situation or many other situations like this they would already be in the regulations!

Everyone is sounding like "that guy" that gets mad at people for fishing on "their lake" or "their spot".

I will be the first to admit that I usually go 60 in a 55 and occasionally roll through stop signs!

[fsnrod]

How about the thousands of 11 inch saugers and walleyes pulled out of 32 feet of water and released imediately to there death every year.

[CaptainMusky]

I guess the point I seeing made over and over isnt necessarily about the legality of it, but the ethics of it. Was the intention of the "livewell" truly to "revive" the fish? Or was it more of a way for them to glorify their catch at the end of the day for their bragging rights photos? Possibly some of each, but I am guessing more the latter. The reason is say this is the series of group photos. If the holding pens were purely for the safety of the fish they would have snapped single photos and NO VERTICAL HOLDS. I dont know these guys, so I cannot say for certain their intentions, but one thing we as sportsmen have to always realize is that our actions are ALWAYS under the microscope. Whether it be our children watching what we do or the tree huggers. Someone is always watching and IMO things like this give "us" a bad name.

I could see those holding pen pictures show up all over the internet with no context about the story and flaming fishermen. Seriously, this stuff does happen.

Fact is, no laws may have been broken in this case and its entirely possible the intentions were 100% in the right place, BUT, it doesnt look good in many ways and there is always someone looking for some ammo to fight things they are against.

I think its obvious this thread has run its course, right or wrong, it really isnt up to any one of us here to decide, but we really have to be careful what we do because there is always someone who hates it no matter what.

[Handsonthepole]

Wallsniffer......sniff back through these posts and you find almost all of them are concerned for the well being of the fish and not whether or not they broke the law. Fsnrod......As for fish being pulled from 32ft and thrown back to their death, that is completely not true. Most of those fish reabsorb their air sac and are just fine. You can actually push it back down carefully with no injury to the fish but it is not necessary. Air sac problems don't come from the depth but the quickness of reeling them up. I have brought lake trout up from 100 plus feet and they do fine if you take it slow. You guys need to get your facts straight before you make comments like that.

[Handsonthepole]

Nicely put Captainmusky. Thank you.

[LABS4ME]

I brought up the 1st post questioning if you can do this as I was warned by a C.O. for basically doing the same thing. Back in the Red Lake crappie boom, we went out on wheeelers for one last hurrah and formed a giant live well with the slush from dozens of holes and scraping away some of the top rotted ice. Let it fill with water and we had a holding pen for all of our crappie... looked cool when it was full. Like a salmon migration! Of course we had all intentions on harvesting these fish, but he told us to get them out of there and not to do that again. He said that they were in our possession but could not readily be counted... my guess is they would use the measurement argument with pike... again not sure... but I guess I wouldn't want to see if they can actually ticket you. The other legal issue is this, and it's in the regs. You can not 'high grade' fish from a live well once your possession limit is reached. If the group all have their 'one over' fish, you then have to quit fishing for the day. You cannot release one and keep fishing. You are at your possession limit for the slot. You can continue to fish for 'under' fish, but any overs have to immediately be released as you cannot release fish from a livewell once you've reached your possession limit. You also cannot release all of them and legally keep fishing for those same fish. Meaning, do so for a morning shoot, release, go in for lunch and do again in the afternoon. In legal terms these fish were possessed by having them in the livewell.

My only other take is this... if the premise of the livewell was to help them reduce stress after being caught and to insure survival after release, are the fish all put back in the 'livewell' for a couple of hours to again 'become healthy' after all the group pics at the end? I would tend to buy the argument of reducing stress if they are put in there with a large enough hole in the bottom in which they eventually swim out on their own.

I do not condemn these guys for what they did. I think their hearts were in the right place and believe they are sportsman whom love big pike. I commend the guys for letting them go. I think their ability to dial in a successful day pike fishing like this is fantastic! In the terms of one of my younger sons... you guys rock! I think there would be NO diminshing of your acheivments if a quick photo of each fish is taken and they immediatley are allowed to go. I think the release shots are the coolest and most dramatic of all! I don't feel the group shot creates a greater impact of your day on the ice than it would with each guy holding the fish he caught just prior to release.

I would pose the idea of an ice livewell to a C.O. prior to doing it and get their take. Better to have the discussion ahead of time than to argue about it on the ice and ruin what may be a trip of a lifetime. We may be surprised to hear that they would be O,K, with it and then it becomes more an opionated ethics discussion... Which can never be won one way or the other as those opinions would be biased to how each poster views the practice. I was simply asking if it was legal? Still not sure... just know I was warned for doing more or less the same thing...

Good Luck!

Ken

[pikerliker]

Well I'm sure these guys have learned their lesson with all the "spankings" they have gotten on this thread. I guess I feel that their hearts were in the right place as all the fish were released. Did they make a mistake? Probably but which one of you on this thread haven't at some point in your lives? I would bet several of you have done things far worse. I'll just say learn from what happened guys and thank you for sharing your awesome fishing trip with us.

[jwmiller33]

The fact that these guys did not break any actual laws makes this thread sort of comical!

Straight from the regs

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong, but I am pretty sure keeping a fish you arent "intending to keep" any longer than is needed to "unhook, identify, measure and photograph" is against the regs. I think this is another one of those examples where the regs can be interpreted differently by different people. I applaud these guys for eventually releasing the fish but I have to wonder how stressed they were when trying to recapture to get out of the livewell.

I also hope they clearly marked the big hole in the ice from the livewell so no unfortunate snowmobilers ended up driving into it.

Congrats on the great day on the ice! I know most folks would kill to have a day on the ice like that.

[magnum mike]

Will somebody please lock this thread...

[CaptainMusky]

Will somebody please lock this thread...

Why? I think everyone has been civil and there hasnt been any bashing. I dont see a need to lock or delete this.

The topic has probably run its course though, but I think everyone has been decent in sharing input.

[jerkbait]

So by what JWmiller put up. Doesn't that make all catch and release tournament fishing illegal then? Tournament fisherman stay one under their possesion limit and cull their fish during a tournament each day of the tournament. So for most this seems to be just fine with tournaments. Why is it so terrible then what these guys did? No different and there livewell is a million times better then the ones in a boat. To all you that think you are just trying to educate, then PM the poster instead of taking away from the great fishing story and pictures!!

[Wallsniffer]

Scaup3, I have read all of the posts and understand that many replies have been in regard to ethics. My message was intended to say exactly what it said, that they have done nothing wrong legally and it is silly to condemn people for something that one may think is morally or ethically wrong. Everyone has their own moral and ethical standards and as long as they are living within the actual laws that exist it is not important that they follow anyone elses personal beliefs and standards nor should be criticized for it.

[Ballyhoo]

Well said wallsniffer.

[Freewheeler]

+1 Ever notice how some people find fault like it was buried treasure?

[Boar]

When i post a pic an will continue to post pics, i thank the ones that congrats me an take into account ones with concerns an ignore idiots. Those guys did a fantastic job fishing. Unbelieable weekend to last a liftime an i hope this thread dosnt shadow that for them, but thats the price ya sometimes pay for posting on a public opinion forum. Good luck guys an remeber the weekend for whats it was. Boar

[schweady]

I will be the first to admit that I ... occasionally roll through stop signs!

The ones with the white edges are optional, doncha know.

[Boar]

I put scrambled eggs on my grape jellied toast.

[jerkbait]

GRAPE JELLY, that can't be. You need to use strawberry jelly!

[Boar]

No wonder it taste like grapes, I hate grapes. Duh.

[CaptainMusky]

So by what JWmiller put up. Doesn't that make all catch and release tournament fishing illegal then? Tournament fisherman stay one under their possesion limit and cull their fish during a tournament each day of the tournament. So for most this seems to be just fine with tournaments. Why is it so terrible then what these guys did? No different and there livewell is a million times better then the ones in a boat. To all you that think you are just trying to educate, then PM the poster instead of taking away from the great fishing story and pictures!!

I could be wrong, but I know Tournaments need to get a permit from the DNR to operate. What exactly that PERMIT is for, I am not sure, but perhaps this gives them permission to do so. Not sure.

[CaptainMusky]

Scaup3, I have read all of the posts and understand that many replies have been in regard to ethics. My message was intended to say exactly what it said, that they have done nothing wrong legally and it is silly to condemn people for something that one may think is morally or ethically wrong. Everyone has their own moral and ethical standards and as long as they are living within the actual laws that exist it is not important that they follow anyone elses personal beliefs and standards nor should be criticized for it.

Wallsniffer, see JMiller's post. It appears they did according to the regulations since the fish were not "immediately" released. Seems black and white to me.

[Wallsniffer]

A person may legally release a fish that was "reduced to possession", there are no laws against that. The regulation that people keep mentioning is incomplete as it goes on to state that people may not wantonly waste fish by releasing them dead, essentially. See page 13 of the regulation book.

Page 10 of the regulation book states that a person may "sort" fish in their livewell, meaning release them for freshly caught fish, as long as they have not reached their possession limit. Once a possession limit is reached a person may no longer sort their fish.

In the case of these fisherman, they appear to have reached their possession limit based on the pictures, and assuming the fish are in a healthy state, they may be released to the lake. At this point, even though the fish were released, the fisherman have still reached their possession limit and it would be a violation to reduce another fish to possession.