"Hard" Mouth?

[2 DA GILLS]

Not sure if my pup really has a hard mouth or if there is something else going on. I have a 12 month old Griffon and he has been hestitant on retrieving downed birds. He has been great with a bumper and even a bumper with wings attached. He will do multiple retrieves with bumpers, but hestitates with (dead) whole birds in the field.

This last weekend I got 2 roosters and both were dead, but flopping around. He ran to them and grab them, but then dropped them and would not bring them back. When cleaning the birds, I found that he definitely grabbed them. They were fairly torn up in the breast. Is he just trying to finish off the flopping bird or is this signs of a "hard" mouth? He does not try to eat them or keep them away from me. He just grabs them, they stop flopping and he drops them.

I have heard from many people and read on this board, force fetch training will make him more reliable as a retriever. However, until I work on force fetch (if I do). What can I do about this tendancy to hard mouth the flopping birds? Will force fetch training help this as well?

Thanks

[caseymcq]

I have two labs. Both are pretty good at handling the birds. My male, Oscar, and I were grouse hunting this fall (he was about 18 months at the time) and I crippled a grouse. When it stopped flopping from what I could see I sent him in after it. As he was bringing the grouse back (and I actually saw it) the bird spurred him pretty good. Well, Oscar had a bit of a knee jerk reaction and clamped down on the bird. That was the only time he had done that. He didn't do it with any more grouse, ducks or pheasants.

Maybe your dog was spurred buy one or both of the roosters?

I had worked with both of my dogs using a bristle brush. They may not have needed it but it is one technique you could use to teach the dog to develop a "softer" mouth.

Good luck with him.

[2 DA GILLS]

I will have to try the bristle brush technique.

I should probably clarify what I am asking. Since he has been hesitant to retrieve, I am fearful to doing any correction with him. I fear that any corrections could add confusion and make him wonder whether he should pick up the bird or not. It may be that there is really no correction that can be given in the field and I just need to focus on training in a controlled setting.

Currently I have just been using a lot of praise and getting very excited whenever he brings a bird back.

[LABS4ME]

One of the BIGGEST problems I see with people and dog training is the lack of birds used in the training regimen. A lot of guys complain at the cost of a pro doing the training, but a good pro will have the dog on birds at least weekly, that will add up in cost.

If I had a dime for everytime I've heard someone say, boy does my dog do a great job retrieving bumpers or tennis balls or barbie dolls or sticks or dummies, but he really has problems with birds, I'd be a rich man.

The problem usually lies within the fact that the dog has been exposed very little to birds. We train all summer throwing bumpers from our side, and now we expect them to mark a duck coming in cupped into the decoys or a rooster flushing out 40 yards and hitting the ground running. The dog (if he sees it) is expected to run or swim out and retrieve that bird. He gets to the spot of the fall and low and behold there isn't anything rubber or canvas or even DEAD there, but rather this feather covered thing that is fighting to stay out of their mouths. This potentially is the 1st time the og has seen a bird on the ground. The next step, if we are lucky, is the dog eventually picks up the bird and begins to retrieve it but doesn't like the dang thing doing it's best to get away from him... the next step is either the dog drops it and says forget it, or he clamps down on it to get it to quit sqirming, and completes the retrieve. Then the process starts all over again, kinda of on the job training when you really want him to be a "starter". Then the dog gets a good face full of spurs or an angry honker pecking, whacking and flapping him on his 3rd, 4th or 5th retrieve and now we really have issues.

To counter act this, the dog needs exposure, exposure, exposure. To start out, minimize the use of bumpers and train with dead frozen birds. Make some of your sessions just a "sit and hold" session. Teach them to hold that bird firmly but gently until commanded to "drop or give". Have a family member or buddy throw your marks from a distance so the dog begins to key in on marking birds at a distance not bumpers always coming from your side. Progress onto training them to hold wing clipped pigeons or quail or chuckar until commanded to drop. The bird should still be alive... Then, use these wing clipped birds to teach tracking and picking live birds on retrieves....the more confidence they gain early on in training the less they need to learn while out hunting. They'll still need to learn to tackle that big live goose and get a hold of it without getting beat up, and they'll need to learn how to always grab a rooster so as not to get spurred, but the rest of the situation has already been taught.

The force fetch, while I believe a important component in the finishing off of a retriever, will not guarantee you will not have a dog with a hard mouth. I know of several field trial dogs that were forced, and while those dogs would run through a field of broken glass to get to a bird, would not have brought it back in the condition you'd want for the table. That is taught more with the controlled "hold" sessions.

In closing, save some of your birds for training, even breasted out pheasant without legs and duct taped back shut will work. Keep 'em frozen between sessions and progress onto live birds, either buy some or go to the game farm and work with him. You can usually talk to the owner of the game farm to leave the birds in a crate so you can control the situations.

Good Luck!

Ken

[2 DA GILLS]

Thanks of the information LABS4ME.

He has been exposed to live birds (in training), but not as many I would have liked. My issue is not the expense, but that I have no where to keep live birds right now. I will find a way to keep live birds and work with them more.

I have used frozen and fresh killed birds this summer during training. I have a frozen bird in the freezer right now, but I am a novice to training and I am not sure how to use it in training in a proper fashion. This is my first dog. I completely understand that I can not expect him to relate retrieving dummies in the yard to retrieving game in the field. They are 2 very different things. I try to switch it up and have him stay while I leave his sight and throw a dummie. He never falls to bring it back. I have also used frozen and dead birds for drags and tracking, which he does well. It has just not translated to the hunting situation so far. He has had close to 50 rooster harvested over him this season (this is a hunting group total, but he was the only dog). So he has had exposure this first season. With this amount of exposure to birds this fall, I assume it is something that I am missing in my training. He has about 6-8 complete retrieves (all cripples) and another dozen where he has located the downed bird.

Looks like my answer is to put away the dummies and stick to birds or bird parts. Since he has hestitated in the field to pick up some birds (especially stone dead birds), how do I correct him for hard handling of frozen birds, but not discourage his desire to pick up birds in the future?

I have also heard mention about pointing or versatile breeds not having the same retrieve instinct as say a lab. Does this require more specialized attention to develop a dependable retriever? I understand this will vary by indivdual dogs, it was just a generalization on breeds.

[LABS4ME]

The desire to retrieve is not only based by breed, but by individual lines. Some of the versatile or pointing breed lines tend to be "naturals" when it comes to retrieving, some have to be taught the whole game of retrieving and some will just never be competent retrievers.

I hope you didn't take offense to my post, I guess it sounded like it was solely attributed to you, I was actually trying to generalize what I have been asked and seen over the years and hoped there was some information you could gleen from it. Sounds like you are well on your way to finishing off your dog. I would really concentrate some sessions to working on "holding" and dropping the bird. Do this at home in a quiet controlled area. Do not throw the birds and have him fetch it, but rather teach him to hold and make it a command. Roll the bird in his mouth and command hold, and when you take the bird from him command drop or give. Do not let him release the bird until told to do so. Increase the duration of the time in which he needs to hold the bird until told to drop it. Work in some live birds as he continues to understand what you are asking of him. Over time he will understand that he needs to hold onto the bird until he delivers it and is command to release it by you. When working in a controlled enviroment you can also gauge the amount of pressure he is putting on the bird and work with him on how he is holding the bird. Keep it up and you will have him retrieving all 50 of those roosters!

Good Luck!

Ken

[2 DA GILLS]

This line should be pretty good for retrieving. A few pups from the same litter have been doing well with retrieving this fall. I am sure it is something that I have done or not done that he has not made the connection between training and hunting.

I did take a little offense, but I was over it quickly. I just want to bring out all of his potential and I know that there are some very knowledgable people that post on this site (that includes you LABS4ME). I really appreciate your last post. It gives me a plan to get started with. He drops fine with dummies, but he does not like to hold when I place it in his mouth. Should I use the command "fetch", which I use in the field, when placing the bird in his mouth? Then command hold?

Thanks for your help. It is appreciated.

[caseymcq]

LABS4ME -

I have a female that is 14 months old. She has an unbelievable desire to retrieve. She is great at that. I am having a problem getting her to hold. I try to work with her on it in a controlled environment like you have suggested. I use a bumper most of the time. I have experimented with small to large. When I tell her to fetch she will grab the bumper most of the time. Sometimes she folds, though (i.e. she drops and rolls on her back like I am mad at her). When she does grab it she doesn't want to hold it for any length of time. When I do tell her to drop as soon as the bumper is out of her mouth she folds. I don't yell or change my inflection from any other command. I give a lot of praise when she is successful, I always end on a successful task, but I am not getting the results I would like.

When you say, "Do not let him release the bird until told to do so." does that include holding the dogs mouth until you give the command to drop?

Thanks for all the advice you have offered up in the forum. I have read a lot of what you have replied to others with and appreciate all of it.

[marine_man]

I force fetched my dog on my own (my first) following the Evan Graham Smartwork Series...

It sounds like you're trying to teach hold, which is good. The first week or week and a half my dog did not want to hold the paint roller (which is what I used for hold) at all... only if he was retrieving a bumper, not sitting there with me forcing him to hold it... I think the issue is that it's not neccesarily fun anymore... you're commanding the dog to do something, which isn't nearly as much fun as retrieving bumpers.

Anyway, what I had to do to get over that initial snag was to put a glove on and put a couple of fingers in the dogs mouth (bottom) and hold them there until the dog stops fighting it... basically you could feel the dog try and roll your fingers out of it's mouth with his tongue, but if you had a good hold it wouldn't work...

Eventually my hard headed dog caught on, and thankfully that was the hardest part for us of Force Fetch.

Anyway, give that a shot and see what happens... remember, it all takes time... don't expect results overnight. Some dogs take a day, others a month, but it all makes a difference.

Good Luck!

marine_man

[duckbuster]

Reading your post I do not believe you have a "hard mouth" problem. I do believe you, along with the poster from my old neck of the woods, Babbitt have the same problem and that is the dog is not finished yet from a force fetch standpoint. Force fetch from a training point of view is the hardest thing you will do. You will feel like a total Sh@# simply because of the pressure you are going to exert on your friend. They will be screaming, howling, whining, whimpering, rolling on there backs slithering on there stomach, anything to get away from the pain you are putting them through by piching the ear. Unfortunately it is an evil that must be done.

Work on the hold 1st.Force the bird into the mouth with a firm "hold". Get the dog to a point where it will walk around the garage at your side while holding. Once that has happened then the true force comes into the situation.

At the start hold the bird right in front of his mouth. Say "fetch" and pinch the ear. When the dog opens his mouth because of the pressure, force the bird into the mouth and say hold with some praise. When you get to the point where he is lunging at the bird at fetch now place the bird on the ground. With you holding the bird say fetch but this time make him sort of chase it. Meaning drag the bird in front of his face while he is trying to get it. Maybe a 3-5 second drag all the while you are forcing/pinching the ear and saying fetch, fetch.

At a point when you feel he can't get to the bird quick enough it is time to move to the next stage. Put the bird on the ground without you holding onto the bird and say fetch. At this point you still might have to use pressure to get him to fetch. If there is any sign what so ever that he is hesitant grap that ear. When this is at a point where you feel good about the dog knowing the true meaning of what is meant when you say fetch then for the most part you are done. Most trial dogs will now move onto what is called "stick fetch". This is a more advanced or finished type of force fetch. You place a line/string of bumpers maybe 10 and while walking the dog at heal with a whip in hand you say fetch. When saying the word fetch you give the dog some pressure with a snap of the whip.

Always, always reward effort with high praise!!

With all this said I will agree with what LABS said about some trial dogs going thru this entire force fetch including the the stick fetch. I have a trial dog, she had an enormous amount of pressure put on her during this part of her training. What do you think she did the first weekend of the Grouse season? Of the 5 birds I shot on Saturday you could literally hear her cave in the chest cavity of every bird. Whether the bird was flopping around like a crappie or dead as a door nail she crunched every one of them. I had to call her pro when I got back to the shack to ask how I go about changing that. I did what he told me to do and the rest of the season I never had another problem. Believe me when I say this that the majority of the birds I shot on the wing this season had nothing more than a broken elbow. After that day they all came back to me alive.

Remember how I started this post. The force fetch is as tough on you as it is on the dog. When done though you will feel a whole heck of a lot better about your friend!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

[BLACKJACK]

Quote:

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because of the pressure you are going to exert on your friend. They will be screaming, howling, whining, whimpering, rolling on there backs slithering on there stomach, anything to get away from the pain you are putting them through by piching the ear.

Unfortunately it is an evil that must be done.

---

I disagree heartily with your last statement. Theres no reason to put your 'friend' thru that type of torture, unless you're going to trial your dog. The vast majority of bird hunters just want and need a dog that will hunt up birds, and retrieve what is shot - a 'meat dog' in the trialers terms. I'm on my fourth lab now. On the first one 20 some years ago when I was young and energetic and gullible, I was going to force train him like the 'pros' did. As you put so well above, what a nasty bit of business that you're doing to your 'friend'!!! If I had a human friend do that to me, they wouldn't be my friend for long. Buts thats the nice thing about dogs, you can beat them/kick them/be mean to them (force train them!!) and they'll always be your friend and will wag their tail when you show up.

My current two year old lab isn't perfect, she'll be bringing a bird back and she may stop at three feet away and hold the bird down, but I just reach down, put the bird in my vest, and go on with hunting. Thats all the vast majority of hunters need and want - a meat dog and family pet to bring their birds back. I understand the dog trialers need for perfection, the competition is so tough, but thru the years, with a lot of dummies, commanding HOLD, walking away when they try to drop the dummy before hand delivery, and pigeons before they ever touch a wild bird, I've ended up with some very serviceable retrievers.

I think you do a disserve to the rookie dog owners when you make it sound like the only way to get a good hunting dog is to force train them. Very few dog owners have the will to force train on their own, and most don't have the money for a pro trainer, so without those two options, its important to put out info on how to get a dog to retrieve without force training. Many dummies, stessing hold, and introduction to pigeons will get you a reliable retriever without torturing your friend with force training.

[Dbl]

I agree 100% with Blackjack. I have stressed the hold command and used it in conjuction with my obedience training. Is my dog perfect? No, but I am more than happy with his behavior and ability to retrieve a bird to hand. I don't think the vast majority of us are looking for anything more than a reliable hunting companion. It will always be, "different strokes for different folks". Good luck in the training.

[Ray Esboldt]

I believe the force fetch really helped develop the relationship I have now with my dog more than anything. She knows there is a master, and the master's commands are to be followed. After the 60 days worth of force training we went through, there was very little optional listening by the dog. She knew a command could be subject to ramifications.

This helped with her behaviour around the house, with new people, new dogs, and in new places. She still exhibits a lot of puppy tendencies, but she really wants to listen to her master.

Guys, I love my dog, but it's not a person. I think one of the most caring things you can do for your animal is make sure it knows who is boss. For me it meant being physically firm with the dog.

[2 DA GILLS]

I appreciate all the information and opinions. I have not determined 100% if I will go the force fetch route or not, but I am leaning towards it at this time.

I do believe it is going to take some pressure to make him a better retriever.

[marine_man]

I agree with Ray... after force fetching my dog my dog has far more drive then he ever did before force fetch. As Ray said, he knows what he is supposed to do, and does it well.

The other thing it really helped with was retrieves in general. It was getting to the point that my dog was getting the bumper / bird, running back halfways, dropping it, picking it up again, on and on until he got back to me... I force fetched him shortly after that behavior started and he has not dropped another bumper or bird since...

It's been a good thing, and I feel that it's strengthened the relationship between me and my dog.... I don't get that confused look that often anymore when I send him for a retrieve.

It certainly wasn't a fun experience, but I don't think it was neccesarily a painfull experience for my dog either... more uncomfortable than anything in my mind.

It's a personal preference... and a decision one has to make in their situation.

marine_man

[2 DA GILLS]

Tried posting a picture. How do you get it to work? I can't get it to work?

[duckbuster]

Blackjack I don't mean to sound like the dog will be near death when doing this. As 2 other replies have stated, what you are doing when you force fetch the dog, which by the way should be done shortly after the puppy teeth have fallen out, is establishing who is in charge of this relationship.

Like you stated there at the end " different strokes for different folks." If you or anyone for that matter is happy with your dog delivering the bird to your general vicinity, wonderful. For those of us who want the dog to return to the heal position and sit then deliver the bird,wonderful.

There is so much training that comes off the force fetch. I believe any trainer, whether you use them or not if asked, will tell you that the force fetch is a necessary evil of dog training.

Good Luck with your decision 2DAGILLS

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!

[Dbl]

My dog is a year and a half and I have not force fetched. My dog fetchs to my hand at heel and sit. He also knows who the person in charge is. If you look at the British way of training they do not force fetch their trial dogs. The training is done in conjuction with obedience training.

Force training is an American training method and is not the only way to get a dog to fetch to hand and heel. "British Training for American Retrievers" by Vic Barlow is one excellent book that describes how to do this with no force fetching and no electronic collar.

I am not contridicting anyones method of training, or what most trainers do, but there are alternative training methods and trainers who practice them that are very successful. Hence my "different strokes for different folks" comment.

Dennis Anderson, the Star and Tribune outdoor writer, is an advocate of the British training methods. I have chosen to go this route with my dog and I couldn't be happier with the results. It has not been easy, don't get me wrong. I have been tempted many a time to resort to traditional training methods, I think it has been much harder on the trainer than the trainee.

All I ask is that you should be aware that there are more ways than one to train your dog. How you choose to do that is up to the individual and your patience level, temperment, yours and your dogs, and how much time and effort you want to put in.

Good luck in your training.

[grab the net]

I'm with BlackJack on this one. I have hunted with Force fetched dogs and they are machines. However the process of getting them there is not for the meek. Decide what YOU want out of your dog. If you want the trial style dog, go for it. But with such a young dog, just a year. I think he can still get the hang of it without the force fetch. Sometimes I wonder how the guy with the gun would feel if when he missed that easy straight away somebody came and pinched him a good one, suppose it would help him concentrate on the next shot?

[duckbuster]

Actually we all were that guy with the gun who missed that straight away shot. Remember when you were allot younger and you had a poor grade on your report card. How about staying out past your schedule curfew set by your parents?

Most of us were punished for not obeying what was asked of us by our parents.

Force fetching is not something that only "trial dogs" need. Regarding what the earlier poster stated " different strokes for different folks." If you want to have a dog that is finished at a younger age every professional trainer in the country will tell you it needs to be done. If you are happy will a dog that will get it over time 1,2,3,5 or 7 years that's your choice.

You know my father in-law who is now in his late 70's has had Labs his entire life. He has never obedience trained one. I will tell you this, by the time they were 5-6 they were as obedient as any dog I have had.

What's my point? He now has 3-4 years left with a well obedient dog but the first 5-6 were a train wreck.

For those of you who think doing the force fetch is mean or cruel and will take away the desire of your animal I will say this. My little female, I say little because she weighs 52lbs and I want to try and get this point across in the best way possible. She went to hell and back with the force fetch because she was so doggone stubborn, she was going to have it her way and no other. She has as much desire to hunt, retrieve and just rough house as any other dog. Nothing was taken from her regarding her natural ability.

I guess I will end this reply with my own version of "different strokes for different folks."

If you prefer to wait and see by all means go ahead. I prefer not to.

To each their own.

[BLACKJACK]

duckbuster, my main point was that force training isn't a requirement in order to have a good hunting dog. You read some of the posts and its like if you haven't force trained your dog, all you have is a mutt. Thats not so and I think some of the new puppy owners that come to this site for advice need to know that.

As far as obedience goes, just because I haven't force trained my dogs it doesn't mean they are not obedient. Sit, Heel, Stay are well drilled into my pups by one year of age. We walk a lot of miles on Heel on and off the leash, a big part of my hunting is sneaking up on duck and pheasant spots, I won't tolerate a dog that won't heel. The same with Stay, once they know what it means, they better not jump out of my truck, tailgate open or not. And even though I haven't force trained them, they know who the boss is. As far as bringing to hand, my 8 year old lab does it every time, tail wagging. The two year old lab does it 100% of the time with dummies, but occasionally with birds, she'll stop a couple feet away. I tolerate it because I just want to stuff the bird in my vest and get on with the hunt. I don't need a dog thats going to run out 80 yards, make three circles, go right 60 yards, find the bird, follow the same track back, then plop down beside me every time. Just hunt up the birds, stay close, and retrieve them after I shoot them.

Good luck to all in their dog training. Just remember that there is more than one correct method and that just because your dog hasn't been force trained doesn't mean that its not going to be a good hunting dog.

[Dbl]

Quote:

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If you want to have a dog that is finished at a younger age every professional trainer in the country will tell you it needs to be done

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duckbuster, I don't think a blanket statement such as that is correct. I am aware of more than a few trainers who do not subscribe to force training. My dog, as I stated in my earlier post, has accomplished obedience, fetching to hand, etc. without force training.

This is a forum for all to use and get feedback from others who have gone through training with their dogs. What a dog owner does with his or her dog will no doubt be influenced by what others have experienced. They would not be here asking if they did not want options and opinions.

Keep an open mind and be aware there is more than one way to get the results you want. Lets not make this threed uncivil, let the original poster make a decision based on peoples success or failure with their experiences.

Good luck

[LABS4ME]

I've been watching where this thread is going and I don't see anything uncivil going on. I think all have stated their case passionately and with honesty. It is good for the ebb and flow of differing ideas of training to come out. The desemination of information is important for those not familiar with a topic to understand all points of view so they can make an educated decision on what they will do.

With that said, I will add my input. I've owned dozens of labs over the last 20 years. Ran some traditional trials and an uncountable number of hunt tests, was a certified judge for both the AKC and NAHRA, guided hunters for 2 years, hunted thousands of hours behind mine and other people's dogs of many varying breeds. I've owned, trained and hunted behind dogs that were forced and dogs that weren't. I've owned both dogs that were forced and dogs that weren't. My 1st Master Hunter was not forced and was an exceptional dog. I say exceptional because she had the ability to get through and succeed in both tests and hunting without the force. My next dog was a natural in everyway (bred out of SkyWatch Radar, I'm sure Duckbuster remembers what a great dog he was) and I can almost guarantee I DID NOT need to force her, but I did. It was actually a pleasure forcing her as she was a very level headed dog, took it in stride and to this day was the quickest student I ever had doing the force... all the way through the stick and collar. Now I will tell you she was going to run trials and tests, but her hip x-rays failed OFA and she became my meat dog. To this day I have not had a dog measure up to her in every regard. Was it because she was forced...? Probably not entirely, but it turned her into the most dynamic dog a guy could want to own and hunt with. I still miss her dearly and we were as close if not closer than any other dog I've owned.

I can say this... every dog I own from here on out will be forced. Done properly, it is not the torture session everybody who is against it, is painting. True there is discomfort for the dog and a really stubborn dog will need to have more pressure applied than a level headed dog. But the stubborn ones are usually the ones who really shine when forced. As others have stated it permeates throughout all aspects of training. The force should not cause injuries or damage to the dog, but rather just enough dioscomfort for them to relate that "not retrieveing is not a good thing". Tailor the amount of pressure to the dog.

The last dog I did not fully force is my 11.5 year old. She only got through part of her force training and it showed. The 1st 7 years of her life she would not always retrieve to hand... I lost a couple of birds due to this (ducks diving, pheasants running) when out hunting. She's now got it through her grey matter that this isn't a good thing and in the last 4 years or so, I can't remember her not bringing a bird back to hand. On the flip side, my 8.5 year old male, retired trial dog, has been forced and has such a passion to "fetch" he always has to carry something in his mouth. As soon as he is let out of his kennel, he runs over and grabs his rope knot or bumper and carries it the entire time he is out of the kennel. He lives breaths and dies retrieving....! Absolutley loves it! And he is not your average bouncing off the wall high strung male trial dog... but rather a fairly soft, very sensitive, does not excell with "hard" pressure dog. But the force elevated his desire to retrieve to an incredible level.

I'm not going to pretend I know a lot of the British style of training, and that is because I firmly believe that the British and Americans have bred different styles of Labs. I've only owned one dog that was bred out of a British import bred to an American dog. I ended up placing it with a friend as a hunter. It kills me to see people saying they are breeding British Labs when usually they are already 1-2 generations removed from British blood. True British dogs tend to be calmer, more natural dogs and flourish with reinforcing what nature is telling them to do. I've had 2 friends directly import dogs from Scotland and can attest they were not your usual American labs that we all understand how to train. In fact neither of those dogs achieved any type of American title as they were totally confused on what they were being taught with traditional methods. They both ended up being placed in homes to become hunters and they did a more than admirable job. They were forced through the ear pinch, but never caught onto the stick and running blinds and hence the reason they were scrubbed. My point here is, one size doesn't fit all. We can probably learn form all this that we need to tailor our training to what we expect out of our dogs and what they themselves need to fulfill their potential. If they are flourishing without the force in a more traditional method... GREAT!!! If you are happy with whatever stage your dog is at in it's ability to retrieve, then by no means do you need to force. If they are dropping birds, not retrieving, giving you a no go in cold water etc... I see no reason not to move forward and run your dog through the force. If your dog is an impeccable retriever and wasn't forced, I do not look down upon you! I commend you and your dog! I'd relish the days I could hunt with you and your dog. But if your dog is a shotty retriever, drops birds all over, plays with them, is hard on them doesn't finish retrieves, gives no goes... I'd rather hunt solo. As i've pointed out I've had (and have) dogs that were not what I'd term "finished"... given the option, I'd take finished every time!

Good Luck!

Ken

[grab the net]

I still think his dog has a chance, although with some of repliles you would wonder how much? Maybe we should start talking about the merits of flushers over pointers and vice versa. Meat dogs vs trial etc.. I still don't want to get pinched when I miss.

[2 DA GILLS]

I took out the forzen bird last night and did a little work. I wanted to see how he would react to me tossing it 5 feet out with a fetch command. He went over picked at the bird and then started playing with it. I am starting to think that he was hard on the birds last weekend, because he was playing around with them. This I can see is an issue that I need to make clear with him. Since he was young I have kept retrieving as a fun experience in hopes of developing a natural desire to retrieve. Maybe I was naive thinking that would work. Regardless, I can see that a different approach is needed. I then proceeded to working on the hold command. He did not like it much the first 2 times, but caught on quickly. After a very short session I had him holding the bird (and with a relaxed grip) in a short time. Plenty of repetition is still needed of course, but he has been a quick study on most things. Like I said, I am a rookie at this. I am just trying hard not to do something that will really set him back.

What do I want in the end? A dog that I can rely on to make those more difficult retrieves. I winged pheasant on the run. The downed bird that he did not see fall in a thick CRP field or a duck that dropped in the cattails behind the blind. I know this will take time and effort on my part.

I ran him in a NAVHDA Natural Ability Test this August and that will probably be the extent of the tests I run him in. I am not interested in a test dog, but a hunting dog that will retrieve all harvested game. Based on his showing in the NA test I was being encouraged to take him to Utility Test level, but I highly doubt I will do so. I was very impressed with the retrieving skills of the Utility Dogs I saw run at that test. I would love to achieve that level of retrieving, but skip the testing part.

I do appreciate all the opinions that have been expressed. It gives me more information to consider. Based on how other training has gone, I do not see having to use a lot of force with the force fethc. He is not a soft dog, but he is not hard headed either. He is very intersted in pleasing me and has a high desire to work as a team at 12 months (I am guessing that could change by next season).

[duckbuster]

To DBL & Blackjack, Your points are well taken!! Obviously you 2 read allot of the posts and topics on this board, as do I. It seems though that so many have to do with someones dog not fetching or not holding or playing with the bird & not bringing it back in a timely manner. The quickest way to resolve this is by going through the force fetch.

I couldn't agree more with both of you when you state that there is more than one way to train. ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!

If an owner can wait until that magical age, what ever it may be, to achieve the amount of success he wants with his dog regarding fetch, hold & retrieving, great. But lets be honest with ourselves here, 99 out 100 dogs are not going to naturally do this in the 1st year or 2 of their existence. When you read so many of these same post about asking for help as to why "my dog won't bring back the bird or he drops it all the time" force fetching is the fastest way to achieve that goal.

To reiterate, I don't mean to say that you absolutely have to do the force fetch but if an owner is questioning why his dog has problems in this area this is one way to correct it quickly.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!

[2 DA GILLS]

My original question was about the "hard" mouth with the birds last weekend. I think I have realized why it is happening. He is playing with the birds. To me it appears a more strict approach is needed and that will probably mean force fetch training. I have read several books with force fetch training programs. I will probably look into other options and make my decision. Either way, something different needs to be done. I knew when I wrote this message I knew what force fetch was all about and what results I could expect for the most part. What I did not know was if force fetch training with help with the "hard" mouth issue. I no longer think it is a hard mouth, but playing with the birds.

As far as the comments about being too late for my dog. Not sure if that was a joke, but several trainer types gave me there opinions that there was no need to have this done prior to the first hunting season. You need to assess your dog and how much pressure he can take. Like most things age is not the indicator, it is different for each dog. Everyone has their own opinion and they are entitled to that. I knew once this head towards a force fetch discussion this could get a little heated. It seems to be a touchy subject.

Have a good weekend.

[Tripleplay]

I also have a pointer that scored Prize II, 102 points in Natural Ability and I was moving towards testing her in Utility. (Her dad is a VC) We went willing into the force fetch training and although she didn't care for me a whole lot through the process because she is pretty stubborn, we were well on our way to completing. Then my daughter got sick and the priorities changed and we never got it finished.

I decided not to go back and start over as by then I had decided not to run her in Utility Testing and although I'd love to own and hunt over a dead on retrieving machine it just wasn't worth the struggles. (this dog used to go and hide under my wifes legs when I'd get the collar out for training! Also, the wife and kids didn't like the dogs reactions in the garage during training sessions which didn't help my case.) I just decided to accept the fact that she may not retreive every bird (her first rooster while training for the track in Natural Ability spurred her really badly) but as long as she finds the birds I could accept that. She retreives all cripples, but may on occasion stand over a dead bird until I arrive.

My next dog will probably have this professionally done but I've also learned that I can survive not having a "finished" dog so the decision is really yours on what your expectations are for the future.

Just as a side bar comment---the breeder of my dog was getting her dad ready for the Invitational and the VC testing over the summer. He was a very young dog but was awesome and had never been force fetched even though owned by a professional handler. In the weeks heading up to the Invitational, I'd never seen the breeder struggling so much this dog as all of a sudden he had decided he didn't have to retreive if he didn't want to. From what I understand they had one heck of a power struggle all while trying to prepare. As it turned out he was down right perfect for the testing but to this day the breeder still tells me it was the biggest testing surprize he ever saw as that dog did nothing right heading up to the test date. You just never now!

Good luck in your decision.

[Dbl]

It was not my intent to suggest this threed was uncivil, just that we have all seen posts like these go down the wrong path on occasion. That is one of the nice things about this site, it is one of the more civil and helpful sites around.

We all hope no matter what method or combination of methods 2 DA GILLS uses, he ends up with a dog he can be proud of that will be a lasting companion and hunting buddy. Keep those questions coming so we can all continue to learn from others experiences.

Good luck and Happy Holidays to all.

[BLACKJACK]

Labs, good response! I've been waiting for your post, because I value your opinion.

It was interesting to hear what you have to say about the British labs because my 2 year old is a descendent of Risky Raider, supposedly a British lab. She does appear calmer at a younger age than other labs I've had, but she still has an incredible drive for dummies and downed birds (the subject of my next post!!). To me, it appears the whole British lab craze is a marketing thing, kind of like the red labs, pointing labs, even chocolate labs 20 years ago, breed something different to make your product different. After 2-3 generations of being crossed with American labs, how much of that British influence will be left?