How MN can get big bucks

[almostthere!]

First of all, I would like to think that most hunters are ethical. It is funny how some hunters bring in the "ethical" issue(s) whenever they voice their biased opinions.

Just because you or the next guy passed up a buck due to whatever reason you or that next guy may have at that particular point in time does not mean that the guy farther down the slope should also pass it up. Some of us hunt for quality meat, some hunt for quality antlers, and some of us are just out there to enjoy a good, quality time.

A trophy is exactly what the word implies at the instant a hunter decides to take the shot. Since we all hunt for different reasons, all deer taken are trophies. I personally prefer the fawns and I do shoot fawns: heck, I will shoot any deer I see because my party is huge and everyone wants a different type of deer (fawns, big does, little does, old bucks, little bucks, etc...).

To quote some a fellow FM'er, "antlers do not taste good no matter how long you cook them".

[nolte]

Quote:

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Some of us hunt for quality meat, some hunt for quality antlers, and some of us are just out there to enjoy a good, quality time.

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I agree alot with this statement. The only problem is that it is very hard for all three to happen at the same time in most cases, without some sort of a restriction. As long as the deer populations are high(thus antlerless deer are very common) an antler restriction would allow all to happen. In areas of a real low deer density it might not, though.

My decision on this came after getting another little buck and putting the smaller rack in with the pile of other ones. If you aren't going to put it on the wall, let it go. If you want backstraps, blast a baldie.

The biggest hurdle to get through is the notion that every buck you let walk is shot by the next guy. If you can get the majority of guys in an area to adhere to this, the results will amaze you.

I don't agree with the argument of not wanting any more restrictions on hunting. The best way to manage any sort of wildlife is to micro-manage and not try to do it on a broad scale.

[hobbydog]

The last thing I would want to see is someone having to pay a fine for shooting a deer that does not quite measure up. I have seen massive 6 pointers, dinky 8 pointers and everything in between. There are a lot of hunters of all ages that have never had an opportunity at any buck. There are hunters that start hunting later and a fork horn is a trophy. Not all deer stand around long enough or close enough in the rifle zone to get an exact score on the rack. I have shot "does" before that had spikes when I got to them. Any fine would feel like I did something wrong when in reality I killed a deer in a state where overpopulation is a problem.

Not all areas of MN are alike. In fact we have very diverse deer hunting opportunities in the state. From the big forests in Ely with large tracts of public hunting land and low deer per square mile with preditation and winter kill. On the other end is the prairie deer in ag areas with shotgun only. Any regs need to take these factors into consideration.

The answer is education and voluntary restraint. Peole have to shoot does....especially in high deer population areas with lots of private land.

[swamptrailer]

A trophy is any deer shot. Here we are complaining about not having trophy bucks. They are out there. Only a few being shot makes even more of a trophy. minnesota DNR has did a great job. 50 years ago you were lucky to see a deer in Deer season let alone worring about a buck with big horns. So enjoy hunting, enjoy seeing deer and enjoy eating deer. manage deer on your property for trophy bucks if you wish. but please leave public land, public and not ask for antler restriction and let the person decide what a trophy is to them.

[Tyler D]

It is a very good point that everyone hunts for different reasons, and I understand that. However I do think that everyone would like to see more trophy bucks, no matter what your reasons are for hunting. Does out number bucks at least six or seven to one in my area, if you want meat shoot a doe, they are more plentiful anyways, antler point restrictions would allow meat hunters to get their deer while still giving a chance for bucks to grow old.

My dads brothers and their freinds hunted the land we have now for the last twenty years, until my dad bought it from my grandpa. We still told them they could hunt, but now they would need to pass up the small bucks. On the first day one guy seen a basket rack 10 point yearling that I passed up three times with my bow, and all he did was complain about how he couldnt shoot that buck. Well the only reason he even saw it was because I let it go earlier, that deer was a 10 point yearling can you imagine what it will be in two or three years. But they havent come back since, because they had to let the small bucks go.

My dad and I spend countless hours improving or land, putting in food plots, and scouting every square inch of our 230 acres. It just amazes me how little importance people place on deer hunting until they have to let a small buck walk, then its like the end of the world. Just because you dont get a deer doesnt mean your hunt wasnt successful. 90% of the fun in deer hunting is just being out enjoying nature, getting a deer just tops it off, and getting a trophy buck shows that all the work you put in finally paid off.

[nolte]

Tyler

I agree. It seems after you see a few larger ones(even if you don't connect), you can't wait till it happens again. They don't have to be these huge super giants either. I think if more people got to experience that, they would feel the same and let a few smaller ones go.

The most important thing is to always enjoy the time you spend outdoors with good company, cause it's way too short in my opinion.

[walleyeguy23]

I am all for letting smaller bucks go. However, I hunt in zone 410 and we get 2 days to hunt. It is really hard to let smaller bucks go if you want to shoot a deer. I am still an advocate of letting them go, but I KNOW that the guys adjecent to our land would never and do never let them go. Is our 160 acres large enough, that we could see a difference, while knowing others will shoot them? I dont know. I wish the state would open up our season to a 9 day hunt. That would help alot. I would be all for a minimum rack imposed regulation too. I shot a nice 7 pointer this year, not big, not small. Part of me wishes I would have let it go till next year, and the other part doesn't, because he probably would have been shot a few hours later. It's alot like fishing in some ways. One year, people can't throw enough +20" plus walleyes in the livewell, have all their friends come and limit for weeks on end, then then next year they complain of only dinks.

That's why my hotspots stay quite:)

[Nova]

Again I agree with the QDM theory and we run our own, I just don't think we need the government involved. We let little bucks go and shoot does and have gotten all but one adjacent landowner to do the same, but if someone has their own land and wants to manage it their way they should be able to. It's called freedom and people die for it every day. What I don't agree with are the antler restictions. There has got to be a better way limit shooting 1.5 year old bucks. Several of the deer we passed on this year were 1.5 year olds with 8 point racks. Basket racks, but 8 points. These could legally been taken in most antler restricted areas. Just my 2 cents.

[Sid]

I agree that government shouldn't be involved with antler restrictions, although in theory their premise is good. One thing that it would accomplish in western MN is that the majority of bucks shot on private land are probably shot while making drives. If a 1 1/2 year old buck runs out full speed by you and its more than 20 yards away, its going to be pretty dang hard to count 4 tines on one antler. Basically you'd have to let it go. I'm sure some would shoot if its questionable and ask questions later. Some small bucks would still get shot by hunters in stands where they could figure out if there's 4 points or not.

To tell you the truth, if we could just get a year where for whatever reason, no deer were harvested, I think we'd be in pretty good shape, the little bucks we see seem to have decent genetics, at least some of them anyway, and hopefully if no does were harvested, the herd would become at least a little healthier.

I don't think you guys realize how serious the situation is with the herd in some spots. We probably saw as many bucks as does last weekend. They just aren't there. So in this particular case I strongly disagree with harvesting any does.

[shae1986]

Antler Restrictions.

The main way for us to see more bigger bucks is with the antler restrictions. I am all for them. I have downed two does this year so far and am now waiting for MR. BIG to come walking out. Now the people who are against antler restrictions are the people who shoot smaller bucks bc they say if its brown it down. I know there are a lot of people with this mentalitty and i also realize that there are some people that say if its brown its down but still wont shoot any small bucks.

I just don't see the problem with antler restrictions bc then everyone whould have to abide by the same laws. If it was a 3 point on each side restriction then your neighbor wouldn't be able to shoot that fork horn buck that you let go 2 hours ago. Where i am hunting now, restriction not a huge deal bc we employ the let all small bucks go and so do the people that hunt next to us, and yes there are some large deer around.

If you want meat shoot some does, there are a lot of them like Tyler stated earlier.

Good Luck all

Andrew

[Sid]

A major reason I'm not totally on board with hard antler restrictions is because deer in the "gray area" (1 1/2 year olds) make up a large portion of the deer herd. I think there will be a fair amount of wasting of animals by people who think its OK to shoot and ask questions later. If it weren't for that, I'd support it. Actually, I wouldn't be upset if they did it anyway.

[nolte]

I sat down with my grandpa and talked deer hunting with him one day. He is the old school type with the old red wool clothes and such. Anyway, we got on the topic of why in most of the old hunting pics we had of our family, how there were more large rack type bucks in them. He had some neat answers and it made me think a bit. If you look at many of the record books, you'll see that many of the ones on top came from way back. Now a lot of it has to do with less hunter, less harvest that sort of stuff. But the stuff that caught me in our conversation were this.

Back then noone ever posted their land. People were respectfull when they were on other's land and they were the same on yours. Now the deer have large sanctuary areas where they might not get hunted all season, or only for the first couple days. It is hard to effectively manage a deer herd or get a crack a bruiser when you have a checkerboard of land the people can access to hunt. The other answer that I thought was interesting was that nobody had scopes and most used 30-30s. The killing range of a 30-30 isn't near some of the more modern cartridges, so your shots were closer. Plus without a scope you couldn't tell if a deer that were out further (say 200 yards) was a little buck or not. Without any doe tags, you had to be sure that the one you shot at was a buck and many times to be certain you had to see a large rack.

I think that would be one benefit to a point restriction. It would make most hunters take a closer look and be more selective of their shots. It might limit the ones that are blazing at brown a bit more and create a safer hunting environment for everybody. Also, with more mature bucks around they would be the ones breeding the does instead of just any buck. This increased competition would make them more liable to travel during the daylight, instead of the nocturnal state that most are in.

[deeky]

I think we need to be careful on the blame game as well, but for slightly different reasons. It has been my experience that some areas just don't produce the big bucks that other areas do, whether it is available forage, genetics, etc. I grew up hunting NE South Dakota and we rarely ever saw anything larger than a 8 point, hunting plenty of public and private land. Maybe once or twice saw a big 10 pointer. Maybe not a big deal one or two years, but 14? I think there are just some areas that do not produce as big of bucks, so take it easy on the DNR and other hunters.

Thunderchicken - where do you hunt in SD? Those tag numbers sound a lot like the area I've hunted.

I would also have to agree with the SD lottery system. Much better control over the state herd, and we never had a problem as residents getting licenses in the counties we applied for - NEVER. We may not have gotten the Any Deer permit, but we were still out there hunting. Yes, there may be more deer hunters in MN, but there are also a lot more deer. I also like the longer, single season in an area, not 3 different seasons to figure out.

Deeky

[buzzsaw]

Alot of great points posted, unfortunately getting everybody to agree will be impossible. It has been mentioned, but it all comes down to people harvesting more Does and passing on smaller bucks... if you unfortunately hunt in an area will just smaller bucks, there are several reasons why they're small...we can all figure this out as well. I would maybe suggest trying another area or try and lobby everybody who hunts in your area to get on board and try and shoot more Does and no small bucks... good luck with that, but it's worth a try.

[HC Eye Hunter]

I am with you on this one Sid. I too think there would be an awefull lot of shoot first, ask questions later situations. I also see a lot of 4x4 bucks that are only a 1 1/2 old so esentially we would still be killing off young, good quality 4pt. bucks and leaving the inferior spikes and forkys. Besides, what gives anyone the right to tell any hunter young or old what kind of buck they are allowed to take? Even if I am for passing on smaller bucks I don't feel I have the right to dictate what kind of buck anyone else should shoot!

I am all for a well thought of drawing process in which I believe would be equal for everyone. Kansas,Iowa, Nebraska and the Dakotas have us hands down on QDM so why recreate the wheel? Why not go with a proven management plan that works in these states? When a hunter gets selected for a buck tag in these states they feel fortunate. I feel this in itself would make a hunter more selective on what he or she shoots.

[SXViper]

I get a kick out of all the people that say they are going to wait for MR BIG to walk by. If you were really into trophy hunting you need to put the time and effort into it. Not just sit in your stand and wait fro MR. BIG. I dont think there should be an antler restriction at all. After all it is still called deer hunting not antler hunting, isnt it? If we put on a restriction 3 years into it people would say, "I dont even see small bucks anymore" because the bucks would be more mature and therefore would be much wiser. The guy just sitting and waiting for MR. BIG to walk by his 4x6 fully enclosed heated stand still wouldnt shoot a trophy.

Brian

[Nova]

ROGER THAT VIPER!!!

[swamptrailer]

"Now the people who are against antler restrictions are the people who shoot smaller bucks bc they say if its brown it down. I know there are a lot of people with this mentalitty and i also realize that there are some people that say if its brown its down but still wont shoot any small bucks."

Well I am against antler restriction and I have shot nice bucks. But I have also shot small bucks. I am completely against antler restriction. I remember shooting my first buck and it was 1 1/2 years old. I have also shot a140 class buck. That first buck and everyone in between have been trophies to me. Now with antler restriction somebody would be telling me I can't shoot the deer I want because need to have bigger horns to be a trophy. That is not right.

[shae1986]

I put in a lot of time waiting for my big bucks so dont' think i sit in a permanent deer stand and just sit their for gun hunting. Thats Bull ****. I put in a lot of time on stands and even more scouting. I bow hunt, Rifle, and muzzleload so i can be selective.

Also I have shot nice bucks and i am for antler restrictions. And EVERY deer i shoot is a trophy for me. I just don't understand, and maybe someone can explain it to me, why people shoot small bucks instead of just shooting does.

Also as i said the people against antler restions are the people who shoot small bucks, and swamptrailer, you stated that you shoot small bucks, of course you will shoot larger nicer deer if you see them, i don't doubt that at all. I honestly don't care what happens with this antler restriction and honestly i don't really care if you shoot the small buck that i let go. Good for you. But i will still let those small bucks go, I would rather not fill my buck tag than to fill one with a small buck. And i know someone will say, well what if you only have one tag and its a buck tag, well then i guess there will be no deer in the freezer.

Andrew

[swamptrailer]

If takes a buck of certain standard to make you happy that is fine. What i am saying that I like to hunt deer and if i harvest a little buck i am just as thankful as it was the next world record because i was succesful in the hunt and I made the decision to harvest that deer. It should be my decision to do it. Just don't make the DNR take that decesion away and support hunting

[shae1986]

So Viper you are saying that letting smaller bucks go will not increase your chances on seeing larger deer in the future. Well then how to Reserves and other private ranchs get big deer, its definitly not because they have them delivered in. Now part of it has to due with genetics, but you they don't shoot a lot of small bucks either. If i undersant you then the 8 pointer i let go 4 years ago and then shot it as a big 10 2 years ago, i would never see bc when they are so much wiser. Well then how do people every year shoot big bucks, its bc they put the time in and scout for thier deer, or they sit in that 4x6 stand, with their heater on, listing to the radio and happen to be at the right place at the right time. Even with more muture deer there will still be small bucks, bc does will still have fawns. And i will say it again, I put a lot of time studying deer, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, thats hunting, but i do know one thing for sure. Here at my college, University of Minnesota, Crookston, they had students running the DNR stations over deer hunting and all my friends said man there were a lot of young immutre deer brought in. And this is why were are doing this bc the DNR is looking at antler restrictions. And so far its looking good for the people that want them.

But i will still say this, if you want to shoot a small buck that i let go, go ahead, its still a deer and if you r a real hunter that cares, it will make you feel great that you put that animal down.

Good luck this weekend all

Andrew

[Rost]

After living in MN, then moving to SD, I would say a drawing works best. If anyone wants to argue, I invite you to ride around with me for a few mornings. You'll see more wallhangers in one morning than you have in 5 years in MN.

The honest truth.

[walleyeguy23]

I grew up in west central mn and now live in NE south dakota. I agree totally with you. I see bigger bucks each time I pheasant hunt then I ever have in MN. There are big bucks there too ,but the numbers are much higher in SD.

This post is interesting. I understand just about everyones perspective. Maybe what really matters is what you enjoy about hunting. I don't like the gov't dictating what I can and can't do, to certain extents, of course. However, either you do or don't shoot small bucks. If you don't, then you should be all for antler restrictions. If you do shoot small bucks, then maybe you should just say, "I like to shoot small deer", and let it be done at that. I feel quite confident that if there were restrictions, in a few years, most people would be quite satisfied with their success. If you hunt for the right reasons, antler restrictions should be the least of your concerns.

[buzzsaw]

I personally like Shae's response! If more people had that mentality there is no doubt we would have more "TRUE" trophy Bucks. We practice exactly what you said on the private land I hunt... we Bow hunt as well and it's frustrating when we let others hunt on the property to help take out does and they shoot freegin' spike bucks and say "I didn't know it was a buck until I walked up to the deer". My response was before you hunt on this property next year you'll need a nice pair of binoculars... I believe the teenager, but unfortunately what he did was NOT what we asked and what he agreed to do... oh, he was bowhunting and shot it from 20 yards away... hmmmmmm.

Then the other bordering neighbors smoke, bring there dogs up and let them run everywhere... yes, on our property and run their heavy equipment during the middle of the day and would rather shoot a spike or small buck as opposed to a nice Doe.... unfortunately the harder you try, it seems the more frustrating it gets. Sorry, I had to rant.

[subzero]

Seems to me there are a few questions here that tie together and also seperate the sportaman of this thread. Killing only the biggest bucks in a herd or taking any buck that walks by. With 500,000 hunters in the woods through out the season, I am sure very few of them either take the time to do what is needed to hunt only big bucks that have lived through numerous seasons. Or that they care if they shoot a huge buck every season. True trophy hunters are few and far in between because of what it takes in time and money to be able to drive for hours to scout year round and figure out a plan that will work on a trophy buck in their hunting area. If the experts are right the trophy bucks that live for a few hunting season develope a survial sense and find the refuges, either state, federal or land that is not hunted. Even in the best of years ( like this one ) I hear hunters saying they haven't seen a deer all weekend. These probably aren't the best hunters and if a small buck or a doe comes by they will shoot it and feel happy. Should only hunters with the skill or lucky enough to shoot a BC buck be allowed to shoot bucks? Where is the line, 8 points that have inside spread of 17 inches. Although a nice deer it won't make the BC book. Or should we only hunt bucks that score 170 where even by Texas, South Dakota, Iowa standards are not common. In the past I would only hunt the bigger bucks and know the time involved to do this. I no longer have that kind of time. I now make my decision deer by deer and beleive that the decision should be made by the hunter and not by the govt. or other hunters that look at the sport different than I do. It is after all deer hunting not trophy deer hunting. Check with any taxidermous and they will say the definition of trophy is extremely different by the deer they are asked to mount. No matter what the final decision either point restriction or buck only permit, some of the hunter that have agreed to it will say they have gone to far and some will say they have not gone far enough.

[nolte]

I'd like to add just a couple more things.

The thought that by letting the spikes and forks go, and shooting the smaller basket racks (because they would be legal) would hurt the genetics, is not accurate. Many times those spikes and forks are just deer that were born late and didn't have the time to develop. Sure some younger bucks would be shot, but just getting half through that first antlered year would be a major improvement.

I looked at the harvest stats from WI a few years back and at the age structure of the deer take. Almost 90% of the bucks shot were in the 1 1/2 year class. If you took out 90% of the 13-16 inch walleyes, and all of the big ones you caught, you would have a real hard time catching any over 25 inches.

[grizzald]

Subzero-- You say that everybody that tells you they havent seen any deer all weekend are bad hunters. Well ya know what, this is probably the most pathetic thing I have read on here yet. Hunting is in my family's blood. Most of my relatives hunt and we all own awesome deer land and yet you say we are bad hunters. I will admit you learn a lot of things while deer hunting, or any type of hunting at that, but when you bash us because there are actually NO deer where we are hunting, then maybe you need to come hunt around Appleton and we will see how "bad" of a hunter you are.

[96trigger]

Its amazing the differences in opinion on this thread, yet there seems to be some pretty common themes.

#1 To get big bucks, let the small ones go, even if someone else may shoot it, if its not a trophy to you, don't shoot, that at least gives it a chance.

#2. Practice QDM, shoot more does if a trophy buck doesn't come your way. There needs to be a certain amount of Deer per square mile to enable growth, if not, food and habitat will inhibit a bucks growth.

#3. Shooting a trophy buck takes skill, time, and effort. Its really hard to climb out in a tree stand. And just expect a BC buck to come walking by. I think this is where subzero was going. I'm hoping that he didn't mean bad hunters as in unethical. What I got out of his statement was that he was talking about the hunters that never scout and do more smoking and drinking before hunting, and then can't figure out why the don't see any deer. We would all probably cosider these people bad hunters, but not bad people. to each their own.

Grizzald, I feel for yah, it sounds like where you live you have a low deer population problem, and once again, I'm wondering why your numbers are so low when all over the state the population is at record levels.

As for more regulations on the taking of bucks, the fewer regulations the better. As for changing the season to after the rut, bad idea if you want to see large bucks. I hunt 3b and have yet to see any of the large bucks that I saw previously while bow hunting or scouting. Just my ops.

[CodyDawg]

I am for antler restrictions. It is done all over the western US and done successfully. I think it boils down to this.

From the survey done a year or so ago, I think I remember about half or more of the people were interested in some type of program to generate bigger bucks. A significant number were not interested in bigger bucks. However, they portion that are against it, lets really look at what they would be giving up. They would not be giving up any does, in fact, it is likely the regulations would even favor the taking of does. So in general, they would get to shoot more does. They would also get to shoot more big bucks. However, they would not get to shoot the little fellas. So they gain on two types of deer and lose one one type. So what if they did not get a deer every year? They would have to hunt a little harder and stay out of the bars a little more. Sure, it may affect a few hunters in low population areas, but that is a small % of the hunters today. And if the regulations were applied correctly, these areas could be exempt. I would think they could have different regs in different areas, eh? Appleton may not have any new regs, but the transition zone (roughly Thief River Falls to Mpls) may have some antler restrictions. Since there are plenty of deer, it should have minimal affect on hunters there.

One thing that really galls me is when guys complain about not seeing big bucks after they have shot little ones.

Oh, and one more random thought, the idea that you see big bucks in Outdoor News, thus we dont have a big buck problem is absolutely nonsense. Half a million deer hunters in the state should shoot more than a few pages of big bucks.

[almostthere!]

One more post.

We should concentrate on taking only the deer we have set our site on. Like the Rough Rider once said, "if you want a big one, don't shoot the little one." This one line applies to all hunters. For those of us who wants to shoot Mr. Big (whatever that may be), we should pass up all deer that do not measure up (even if a buck with one less point or 1 inch less total measurements shows up under our tree stand). For those of us who has no predetermined antler restrictions, we may shoot whichever deer we should choose to.

Some of us like to push the shoot a doe instead of a small buck line. What is wrong with this line? Well, we all know that a young deer taste better than an older deer and does tend to taste better than old bucks. Now the question is Does a young buck taste better than an old doe? You betcha! So, to tell another hunter (one of us, btw) that he/she should pass up on a young buck so that you or I can shoot it some year(s) later on down the road is just plain selfish and wrong.

Where my party hunts, we tend to see only little bucks. However, there is at least one Mr. Big taken every year and that one Mr. Big is truely appreciated that much more because there isn't 50 others like it running around our area.

What some of us want is not QDM but rather QAM (quality antler management). QDM is the thinning of a herd of deer so the habitat can sustain the herd and itself. QAM is the culling of inferior buck and does so that what we see all day long are monster bucks and still see no trophies because they are all the same size.

To produce a really big antlered buck, you should thin out the small buck and the doe population and cull the inferior antlered bucks: that is proper QAM.