How MN can get big bucks

[grizzald]

I'm gonna wright this, I know some are going to totally disagree with me and some may even totally agree with me, but this is what I think needs to be done in my hunting area and probably some other areas in West Central Minnesota. I am a very ethical hunter, I don't shoot off fawns or does, or basket rack bucks at that. But year in and year out my hunting party only sees maybe one "alright" sized buck if were lucky. It is usually fork horns running around the country side. Now comes the part of disagreement and agreement--- Maybe what needs to be done to start getting big bucks back into circulation is every third year, shut down the buck season. The DNR could still hand out a handfull of doe tags for each area, but have it as a drawing system where you have to apply to get a doe tag. Now if you really think about this idea, it is a great idea because say there is a 2 1/2 year old buck that makes it through all of the sesons of deer hunting without getting shot, then say the next deer season comes around and its that 3rd year where no bucks can be harvested, all of a sudden he's 3 1/2 years old and has nothing to worry about. Then the next year comes around and that bucks that was once 2 1/2 and had a decent basket rack now is 4 1/2 and has a huge rack. Just my thought on how MN could maybe manage some areas of the state where deer numbers are very low right now.

[Labby]

I am all for trophy management but shutting down certain areas woul just put more pressure on other areas. This sport is so unfair for the trophy hunter anyway. I know a guy who shoots every buck that walks by and he shot a pig on friday.

Derek

[Quackaddict9]

I agree with you. I would like the DNR to put some regulations on buck size but it could be a little hard to justify by the size at times.

I have the same problem around my land, I passed up the same 7 pointer (small rack) I saw sat/sun/mon morning and then the other family who also owes the land with my family, the father wants his son (MAX) to get some shooting and told him to go to my stand and I told him no I'm going there. SO the problem right now is that I am heading up to the Farm this weekend and Max will be sitting in my stand waiting for that buck to come by and shoot it. They dont understand.. I passed it up, so it can get bigger and didnt pass it up for Max to shoot it. You know what I'm getting to. Max had some shooting in other areas on our land and missed, his gun was 2 ft off I guess, he, his dad never sight in their guns, so thats probably the main reason why he hit the big one a little bit too low under the belly last year out of my stand. You should check out MNQDM, they have some good explaination on what you can do to make it a better buck management in your area. I hope some people wont shoot whatever buck they see, any doe meat is as good as a small buck but it just has no antlers...

[Stratosman]

Grizzald, unless I misunderstood your post you said you don't shoot does? That is one of the first steps to managing land for quality deer, taking a good number of does off the land. Other than that I partially agree with the fact that it sure would be nice to have the deer like North Dakota where they have to draw tags. But I bet it would be pretty hard to get that passed, lots of opposition.

[lcornice]

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Other than that I partially agree with the fact that it sure would be nice to have the deer like North Dakota where they have to draw tags. But I bet it would be pretty hard to get that passed, lots of opposition.

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Before we go comparing Minnesota to North Dakota, we need to remember that Minnesota has more deer hunters than North Dakota has people!

[grizzald]

Stratosman-- How do you think that taking does off of the land is the first step to deer management. Last I remember bucks dont have fawns, and we need all of the does around my area that we can possibly get because there are hardly any deer.

[ortonville]

grizzald-i see you are from appleton. i am from ortonville.i dont know about the closeing of buck hunting all together. but the dnr should look at the way south dakota does it. you can always hunt but some times not the area you want. and over there the buck tags are what everyone wants. so maybe you only get a buck tag every 3 years or so. and maybe you only get a doe tag every other year for the area you want. so you apply for say 431 buck tag dont get one so second choice is 433 doe tag or 431 doe tag.the dnr dont have to shut off shooting bucks compleatly but at least limit the kill.and if they dont like that maybe a antler point restriction. i wish they would do a test of the antler restriction in 431 and 433. with the refuge and allong bigstone lake with the revines. in a couple of years you would see monsters

[Thunderchicken]

Grizzald I'm originaly from Appleton and now live in SD. Bergman is the last name!! Anyway I hunted up that way this past weekend for the first time in many years now and I agree that something needs to be done. I for one like how they do things over here in SD. They have a drawing system for every county and only hand out a certine amout of " Any Deer Tags " in these counties. Thus only allowing for so many Bucks to be killed. For instance the county I hunt they only have 300 any deer tags, 600 anterless tags, and 600 double anterless tags. With that said I would be willing to say that only 200 bucks will be taken for this year. And the average buck will be 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 years of age with a good handfull of 5 1/2 and older taken. I have been hunting this area now for about 7 years and in my group of 4 to 6 guys someone always get a wall hanger every year. Now around Appleton where there is probably 1000 guys hunting and maybe taking bucks it doesn't leave many for the next year.

I guess in my opinion they need to install a drawing system so that not every person that wants a buck tag gets one. Now I know that sucks, and I didn't like it a first over here but after a couple of years hunting over here it has become clear to me that it works!

[poutpro]

One reason that does need to be shot is so that there is not so many around that every buck gets to breed. When bucks need to compete for a doe, the dominate buck wins, and he breeds the doe and his good genes are passed on. Also, less deer allow for better nutrition and areas for feeding and bedding for the deer that are there.

[rollz2002]

I don't know about shutting areas down for management purposes that just means more deer are going to inhabit the area. A reason why big bucks are not found is becasue an area is over populated and they leave. I am sure there are some Bigger bucks around u just aren't seeing them. Every year I talk to alot of people who shot monster deer and its all over that state. Maybe moving where u hunt is what u need to. Do no restrict yougsters from taking their first buck that is a way to get have them lose interest in hunting. If a kid sees horns and shots the deer praise him no matter how many shots he took.

[BLACKJACK]

As far as I'm concerned, deer hunting is as good as I've ever seen it. I can shoot an early doe during archery season, shoot another one during the gun season, and still have a buck tag to fill with a 4 point or a 14 point, whatever makes me happy. I remember the days when a doe permit was sacred and it got to be a long season when you had one doe permit for four guys and you were only hunting bucks. For you trophy hunters, that’s why they call it hunting and not shooting. The big bucks are out there, just look at the pictures in the Outdoor News or your local hunting shop. EVERY WEEK Outdoor News prints big buck pictures from all over the state. Get out there and HUNT them down, don't expect special regs to help you get that trophy.

So what is a trophy buck? For a kid or anyone that hasn't shot a deer for awhile, that 6 point is a trophy. If you're a meat hunter and that 6 point comes along before a doe, too bad so sad, he'll taste good. Everybody has a different definition of what a trophy is.

Limiting tags is not the answer; the DNR is trying to get more deer shot. QDM is not everything it cracks up to be. The dirty little secret about QDM is that it advocates shooting more does, lots more does, to the point where you may not be able to shoot a deer every year. Do you really want that?

When you ask the question to deer hunters “do you want to see more trophy bucks”? Of course they do. It’s like asking a guy if they’d like more sex or asking whether you’d like to make more money. But what are the other consequences? Unplanned pregnancies, more work hours, less deer to hunt.

I think the one thing that could be done is to start the deer season two weeks later, get it out of the rut. Then more bucks will survive, a few will get bigger, and the brown its down crowd can still continue to shoot.

[subzero]

Good job Blackjack I couldn't have said it better. No matter what the DNR does some area's of the state will never hold numbers of trophy bucks. By there very nature trophy bucks are the few that have the right combination of elements to pass the other bucks in the area in antler developement and size.If trophy's were easy to get or were numerous then the standard would have to go up as to what is a trophy.

[Flash]

It really amazes me how much we expect from the DNR, Mother Nature, etc. I can remember 30yrs. ago there were no deer at all south of Mille Lacs. My neighbor went out hunting and shot a doe and you would swear the Carnival came to town. Now we complain that there are no "Big Bucks". Well actually, what is a "Big Buck"? If we had all 10 pointers running around the woods, we would all want 20 pointers. Hunting has become way too commercialized for it's own good. I say enjoy what you have now as it is not going to get any better than it is. Too many things are going against the animals. Hey, if you want to be guaranteed to be able to go out in the woods and have a shot at a 12point buck, then go to a game farm. The reason a 10 point is a Trophy is because there aren't many and not everyone has one. In my opinion, Deer hunting in Minnesota has peaked and will never be better. Enjoy it now. If you get a shot at a big one, good for you. Isn't it really the chance to shoot Mr. Big the reason we go. It may not be the only reason but it is a big one. Good Luck to all and enjoy the outdoors.

Flash

"Set the Hook"

[96trigger]

Its really hard reading this post to understand some of the comments. I hunt in SEMN, which I know is much different from SWMN. It wasn't long ago that we all had to apply to get a doe tag and it was a big deal to get one. This was less than 10 years ago. Now we can get up to 5 deer in bonus tags and still only shoot one buck. The DNR knows what it is doing. If it's not working in your area, maybe there is some other outside factor. Deer grow at a fast exponential rate, the state population is at record numbers. From what I am hearing on this post and some other posts is that there is a lack of deer in the area. Maybe there is something else going on with the population other than the brown its down method. Poaching? Lack of food? Lack of adequate cover? Its hard to say.

As for passing on small bucks, thats all you can do. I bow hunt on state land and always pass up small bucks. I have never shot a large buck, but had numerous shots at baskets, forks, and evens some decent eights. If I shoot that small buck I know that it has no chance of getting mature, if I let it go, there is a possibility that the buck will get missed, and will get bigger next year, even though I am sure that a couple of the small bucks will get knocked off, the big bucks get big for a reason. When the first shot rings out in November, they go nocturnal. I haven't seen a deer in my stand since Saturday morning. but I know that there are still lots of deer out there. I hope that your herd increases, but remember, be part of the solution, not part of the problem, if you want trophy bucks in your area, shoot does, and give the littler ones a chance to grow.

[WB make the CUT]

Nice thread, its hard when you pass a basket 8pt and a guy down the ridge blasts it.

My thought, change the season dates to not hunt the rut.

That would certainly help.

Big step though.

[Mark Christianson]

I can already hear people complaining if it were moved out beyond the rut a couple weeks.

"We dont see bucks any more, because they dont move around since the rut is done."

Its a no-win situation.

The good thing we have going since we hunt the peak of the rut is that you have a chance to see a lot of deer you normally would not ever get to see.

I kinda like hunting the rut myself. I personally dont want it moved.

How to get more bigger bucks?

Pass on little ones. But a huge subset of the deer hunting population will never ever buy into that either.

I pass on deer, and get to listen to gun shots minutes later from our neighbors at times. I get really frustrated, but I cant change their mindset.

[Tyler D]

Honestly if the DNR put antler point restrictions I think people would be amazed at how many bigger bucks they see. Three years ago we entered a pact with our neighbors that we would shoot no bucks that didnt have at least eight points and a spread to the edge of the ears. Since that time we see so many bigger bucks it is crazy, not necesarilly monsters but many really nice bucks many that have the required eight points and spread, but we still pass on those bucks, because they are still not yet mature. We also have some huge ones on our land that we have seen during bow season, but have yet to step out with the rifle.

Between the four of us in the pact we have about 1200 acres tied up, and Im sure it is tougher to pass on bucks, when you know they are just going to get shot when they cross the line.

My personal feeling is that if the DNR put a four point per side antler point restriction, the number of big bucks would go way up. All of the little forks and six pointers would at least make it through to their second year and be some pretty decent bucks, but it would still allow people to shoot small bucks if they wanted to. Obviously anyone under 16 should be able to shoot anything they want, so they can at least get something.

Let them go so they can grow.

[grip-em+rip-em]

3 years ago I sat in one of my stands and watched 8 bucks go by. 6 of them were 8 pointers with a few of them being nice 8 pointers. We had already put a few does in the freezer, so I made a decision that I was only going to take a buck that I would want to put on the wall. I passed on all of those bucks that night. When I got home, my mother-in-law asked me if I had gotten anything, and I told her about the bucks and how I had passed on them. She laughed and said that I would never see those deer again. I explained to her that if I had pulled the trigger that I would guarantee that I would never see at least one of them ever again. Anyway, this year there are 3 really nice bucks hanging around that area. I cant say for sure that any of these 3 bucks are ones that I have passed but I have a good idea that they are. If a guy wants to shoot a smaller buck then so be it. The problem I have are the guys that sit around the tail gates of their pickups with 3 six pointers, a basket 8 and nub buck and complain that they just arent seeing any big bucks. Do the math boys.

[nolte]

Tyler

You hit it dead on. It would be fairly easy to enforce and I think very effective. I also think that if people tried it for a few years, they would see the effects and be all for it. My thoughts would be to give away an antlerless/or 4 pts or bigger on one side to everybody, and an any deer tag for kids under 16 or first time hunters. If the population is high give out additional antlerless. If it's low change it to 4pt or bigger. The way to control the deer population is through the harvest of does not bucks. Use that and do it accordingly.

The example that we always give is that if you took out 95% of the boys in your school system in 4th thru 8th grade, how many boys would you see in high school or make it to college. Not very many, but those boys would be very lucky with all the girls around.

[grizzald]

Tyler D has the right idea and actually the DNR is sending out surveys in certain areas this December for the at least four points on one antler. These areas are 433, 446, 447, 448, and 449. I picked up this information and papers that were being handed out at the registration station this last weekend in Appleton. The DNR is calling this a 5 year pilot program which I feel is one of the smartest things the DNR has done in awhile. Sure my area is not included in this pilot but it will probably turn out to be a good thing and maybe mine and other areas will be included into it.

[poutpro]

There already is limited areas that have these types of antler restrictions isn't there?

[Stratosman]

Grizzald,

You ask why shooting does is important?? It is a major objective for a sound management program, a 1:3 buck to doe ratio would be ideal, however difficult to achieve. The benefit of doe harvest is the effect on deer density, sex ratio and habitat quality. Also, shooting the does earlier in the season is also of benefit from a management standpoint as it results in a higher percentage of does bred during their first cycle, assuring the fawns will be born earlier in the spring, and given adequate time to mature prior to the harsh winter. Also shooting the does earlier in the season has it's advantage because typically the doe will drive her yearling buck away prior to the following breeding period, forcing him to take up residence several miles from where he was born.

Not saying you should blast every doe you see, but 1 doe per 50 acres a year is not excessive in well populated areas. You did not state in your first post that you're herd popluation is low, however, the majority of the state as a very healthy herd.

Every area is different and would need to be adjusted accoridingly, but at least I hope that answered your question about the importance of doe harvest.

[decoy]

My inlaws hunt in ND. The mentallity of the group is. If It is a buck smaller than 4x4 and its inside the ears it is a "skank." In other words, They let everything smaller than a huge 8 pointers go.

These guys would make you feel like an (Contact US Regarding This Word) for shooting a small buck.

Well... it works. Those guys shoot trophy after trophy... year after year.

I hunted does with them last year and saw MANY trophy Bucks. I watched a Very Heavy 12 plus pointer look at me through brush last year and had easy kill shots on 6 or more other trophy class bucks. These shots were all at 100 yards or less. It was an amazing experience.

Last year they shot 6-7 large 8-10 pointers and one very large 13 pointer.

Here's the mentallity... I was google eyeed and saying "wow".

They didn't understand me because... that's just the way it is there.

Stop killing little bucks... start seeing big bucks.

[Nova]

The last thing we need is more government in hunting. I totally disagree with more restrictions. We personally have our own QDM set up, but I don't want to tell some guy 6 counties away that he can't shoot deer because our little sector has a low population.

[Stratosman]

I agree with that statement for sure. I think it needs to be voluntary. Our whole life is already regulated to a certain degree. That's why I doubt it will ever fly, 20 guys, 20 different answers.

[Mark Christianson]

Bingo

[Quackaddict9]

BLACKJACK wrote:

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For you trophy hunters, that’s why they call it hunting and not shooting. The big bucks are out there, just look at the pictures in the Outdoor News or your local hunting shop. EVERY WEEK Outdoor News prints big buck pictures from all over the state. Get out there and HUNT them down.

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Okay, I dont agree or disagre with you but you said for us trophy hunters that there are big bucks out there and yes we are hunting after them and we pass up the little bucks then other people shoot it, and that is kind of hard to get a trophy that way, and all the land next to people they might shoot anything they see or not. Not all the bucks in Outdoor News are from MN. I would say most of them are trophy hunters that pass the little ones up nor the ones that just got lucky. Last year we had one guy not too far from us who shot a nice 10 and it was his biggest deer in 25 years. My brother tells him he passed up a spike and he replies "You cant do that!", i thought that was funny.. I am not saying your right or wrong.

[buzzsaw]

Quote:

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You ask why shooting does is important?? It is a major objective for a sound management program, a 1:3 buck to doe ratio would be ideal, however difficult to achieve. The benefit of doe harvest is the effect on deer density, sex ratio and habitat quality. Also, shooting the does earlier in the season is also of benefit from a management standpoint as it results in a higher percentage of does bred during their first cycle, assuring the fawns will be born earlier in the spring, and given adequate time to mature prior to the harsh winter. Also shooting the does earlier in the season has it's advantage because typically the doe will drive her yearling buck away prior to the following breeding period, forcing him to take up residence several miles from where he was born.

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Stratosman, this post explains why taking Does is so importabt and is stated perfectly! Unfortunately we can't all be on the same page.

[lawdog]

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Stop killing little bucks... start seeing big bucks.

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Boil it all down and that little sentence right there about says it. Throw in decent habitat and good doe number controls and you are there!

[finny]

The best way I see to fix the problem and people may or may not agree with me but, I don't think they should have the gun season during the rut.