lottery system for Bucks

[walleye_dan]

How many hunters wouldn't go hunting if you couldn't shoot a buck during gun season? How many of you keep a limit of 4-7 pound walleyes? I usually release them so that someday I might catch a trophy. If hunters themselves can set standards to what type of deer they shoot, then the DNR shouldn't have to step in. There are trophy deer out there and everyone wants a shot at one. Hopefully there is a way to give everyone that shot.

[BKB]

I think one thing that is a problem is the season framework here in MN. I grew up hunting in WI and with the 9 day season statewide we had the mindset that you pass the smaller bucks the first 4 or 5 days and take a doe if you wanted to fill the freezer. Here in MN if you hunt in a zone with only a 2 or 4 day season how many guys will pass any size buck? This is my 4th season living here and I still think if the season were later and you gave guys more than 2 or 4 days to hunt it would only help with the quality of the bucks.

[Flash]

I agree with Oilguy, too many people watching Monster Buck Videos. Lay down $5000 and you can shoot one too. If the woods were full on 10 pointers, everyone would want to shoot a 20 pointer. One thing to remember, cars get more deer that hunters do.

Flash

"Set the Hook"

[Dan Wood]

I would like to see a draw for bucks, but that is just my opinion. It depends on what you want. I'd give up a tag every other year to have the chance at bigger bucks, most won't go for that though. I'd also be in favor of a QDM program that is enforced by the DNR (6 pt. minimum or something of that nature).. Again, though.. This won't be popular with the majority of hunters who just want that 130 lb. deer for the freezer...

[who are those guy]

I agree with BKB - the short season in half the state contributes to bad mgmt. If you have 2 days to shoot &wind/weather/corn can easily screw with your hunt - its first come first dead. This year especially, the corn had does all holed up and the only things moving were bucks. Saw bunch more small 6 & 8's dead then usual. No one I know passes on bucks out west - not even me. Not any second chances out there.

[doser]

I think everyone has valid points. I'm all about QDM too. The first step I would like to see taken is getting the season away from that peak rut period. I'd probably be more for a point system than a lottery. Although I wouldn't condone that either. If even 50% of the hunters out there had the mind set we all did on this board producing bigger bucks the herd would be in excellent shape. I think I'd still let the bowhunters shoot whatever size bucks because I feel the majority of bowhunter pass on smaller bucks anyway because of the longer season. ( At least I and guys I know do), but if they tag a buck you wouldn't be allowed to party hunt like you can now with the all-seasons license.

[muskybuck]

Managed deer herds and quest for trophy deer is what brought Chronic Wasting Disease to WI!!! We can not even believe what the DNR is telling us about the spread of CWD. They do not want to panic us poor ignorant hunters you know. Got to keep those dollars coming in.

[Dan Wood]

muskybuck, I would have to disagree with you. WI never did much at all in the way of managing for trophy bucks, they still don't. The deer herds got out of control because there were too many does. All of those hunters that just want to kill a buck no matter the size... There weren't enough does harvested to control the herd. This has very little to do with QDM or limiting buck tags.

[jlm]

You know, I have to ask a question. How many of you guys on this board that are complaining about the lack of big bucks in your area would admit to being part of the problem? How many of you guys have taken small bucks over the last five years? Not that taking a small buck is a problem or a bad thing....unless you are complaining about the lack of big bucks! I am not trying to be rude or a smarta$$ but lets be realistic here. If you want bigger bucks in your area, quit shooting the small ones, its that simple. I supppose I would hear the arguemnt that if I don't shoot it, someone else will. Good arguement which may have some validity but who can predict the future with certainty. I can't and neither can anyone else. The point is that you gave that small buck one extra chance and you never know, he might make it through another year. So what I am saying is stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution...if larger bucks is what you want. This type of thinking has to be a firm mindset before we see major changes in this state.

Oh, by the way, has anyone seen the approval rating of Pennsylvania with their new point restrictions? It was highly favored by hunters (prior to going in effect) and after a season (maybe two, I can't remember), the majority disapprove of the system. Go figure! The grass is not always greener on the other side folks!

[Dan Wood]

doser,

I'm in agreement with most of what you say. I'd prefer the point system over limiting tags as well. I feel that limits on buck tags is inevitable as the hunter population increases and land decreases unfortunately. If that is what it takes to preserve good hunting now and in the future, I'm all for it.

"The first step I would like to see taken is getting the season away from that peak rut period."

I'm not sure pushing the season back away from the rut will be a popular option. Your chance of taking the real big bucks is much better during this time period. It just so happens that your chance of taking little bucks is too (this is I'm sure the angle your coming from). If the DNR were to manage for trophy bucks, they would need to have people taking larger bucks during the season for this to be successful. The little bucks would be protected by either limited tags or the point system, so the season change wouldn't be needed to protect them.

Are trophy bucks what the general population wants? I doubt it. I think most would rather have the opportunity to harvest a deer each year. The general population is perfectly happy with that 130 lb. deer for the freezer. I'm afraid we may be the minority here.

[Dan Wood]

jlm,

"If you want bigger bucks in your area, quit shooting the small ones, its that simple."

If you have thousands of acres and can start your own QDM program, that is a very simple solution that many are doing now. It becomes much more difficult for one person or even one group to actually make a difference on public land or smaller sections.

Regardless of what I or everyone on FM does, you'll always have meat hunters... If the goal of MN is large bucks, you need to structure the "rules" accordingly. Obviously the goal of the MN DNR is not big bucks, but that is the way this discussion is going..

[ricqik]

My whole bowhunting life I've only taken one buck, and it's a spike. [commercial-or-naughty-word] proud of it too.

Buck lottery only benefits folks who want trophies, it does VERY little for a healthy deer herd. IMO what it should be is have a every other year to harvest a buck of any size you choose. Why every other year. Well, all those yearling that doesn't get shot during the closed buck year will be 2yr olds by the next allowed buck harvest year. At 2yr old these bucks also become smarter and avoid daylight activity and it has a good chance at growing to 4-6yr olds. A does is allowed for harvest every year with additional tag for area's that are over populated. This would keep the does population at a safe managable herd all the while increasing buck population and older bucks. Of couse this is for Gun-Deer only. Bowhunters are more selective so I see no need for it to change. I always try to fill all 4 of my doe tags and hope to get a buck, which hasn't happen in yrs, just not my luck.

[Mr. B]

I am curious what will happen to this discussion if we have a bad winter? I think it was five years ago we had a bad winter and the deer population was decimated. Hunters were happy just to see a deer now we have more deer than we know what to do with and people are complaining that there are not enough big deer.

I hunt in the Brainerd area and see more and more deer every year. Just this year I passed on a spike and a big doe with a fawn to then missed on the largest buck I have ever shot at.

If you want to find big bucks I think it is going to take doing more homework to find them.

[jlm]

"If you have thousands of acres and can start your own QDM program, that is a very simple solution that many are doing now. It becomes much more difficult for one person or even one group to actually make a difference on public land or smaller sections."

That is exactly the mindset that contributes to the problems with trophy bucks in this state. People believe that they can not make a difference. If this line of thought continues, there will not be much in the way of change in our state. However, if you stick to your own standards and encourage others to do the same, you will see a difference in time. Each of us can make a difference by having personal standards. In some areas of the state (like in my area), people are making the changes and it is beginning to be more of a way to hunt than just a thought. It is making a huge difference. There are lots of young bucks running around and some real trophies to be had if you put in the time. Along with that, those that continue to shoot small bucks are feeling the pressure from their hunting counter parts to let them go. I am not sure if that is good or bad but it is happening. They are also beginning to see that there are bigger bucks to be had which increases their own opportunities...that to is changing some minds. I personally have decided to pass on all small bucks (have done so for several years) and am contributing to what I personally would like to see in my area and that is larger bucks. Good luck with the rest of the season guys!

[JMR]

I think alot of us on here do more homework than the average hunter which is also why we are in the minority when it comes to wanting bigger bucks. Mr. B, I'm sure things would be different if we were back in the mid 1990's but we are not. We have the opposite problem today. What if we have 2 or thee more mild winters? Then what will the conversation be about? We have done alot of talking about point restrictions and lotteries, but not much talk about shooting does. How comfortable do you think the average hunter is with shooting a doe? There is a mentality out there that any buck is better than a doe. I know, I still have it to a point and so do all the guys that I hunt with. This is a hard thing to over come and I think this is why it would be so hard to go to a lottery or point system.

[Dockter]

All I am going to say is that if there was a buck lottery I would no longer deerhunt here...unless the lottery didn't apply to bow, then I would only bowhunt here (would you want it to apply to archery??) I think quite a few people would take the same course of action as me also.

[huskminn]

Are you sure you wouldn't hunt firearms deer here at all? Even if you put in every year and got your buck tag half the time?

Most state-run QDM programs exclude bow hunters, as they have such a small affect on overall herd populations.

I don't know what's right for MN, but it's obvious that different parts of the state would need to be handled differently, as terrain, habitat and pressure vary widely.

7-8 years ago, South Dakota switched the Black Hills unit to lottery only. Prior to that they sold 15,000-20,000 buck tags over the counter every year. Now they sell about 5,500 by lottery only. They also have a one forked antler minimum.

The season runs the entire month of November.

Was the deer population in trouble? Not really, the buck-doe ratio was way off balance, though. There was habitat loss, which affected deer and still does, but that wasn't the impetus for change. Primarily, they wanted to provide hunters with a better quality hunt. They found out that hunters wanted a crack at mature bucks while having a more pleasant time in the woods (i.e.: fewer people around).

Well, they have been wildly successful. On a scale from 1-7, with 1 being 100% satisfied with the hunt, hunters rate the hunt at 2.5. This number is up from around a 5 several years ago and goes up a little every year. In addition to this, over 70% of bucks shot have 4 points on a side or better. And, this is all taking place on over 1 million acres of public land.

The state says that a reduction in hunting pressure has had the most dramatic effect on buck size, not the antler restriction. Locals say the hunting hasn't been this good for 40+ years.

I grew up out there and hunted many, many seasons there. I was out for a trip a couple of years ago. We hunted three days, saw 14 bucks, about half of them being what I would call "mature"--that is 3-1/2+ yrs old. I had never experienced anything like that before. It was awesome.

Since it's pretty hard to dicate what size of deer a hunter can shoot, it seems to be a better idea to restrict the number of people allowed to hunt. There are some large tracts of public land in MN that could stand to have less pressure. In over populated areas, you could also require people to shoot a doe before they can shoot a buck.

[muskybuck]

Dan Wood, CWD has nothing to do with the size of the deer herd. CWD has been started and spread by (they think, they won't tell us for sure) feeding of growth suppliments to help ensure large antler growth (suppliments which is made up of body parts such as brains etc.) and then further spread by WI's insane idea of baiting and feeding deer which brings them nose to nose while feeding instead of feeding individually on twigs etc. CWD was not introduced by having too many deer. It was spread by trophy hunters and politicians who fell for line that corn suppliers would undergo financial hardships if they were not allowed to sell the corn to "hunters". I do not call a deer shooter a "hunter" when sitting on a corn pile in the middle of the forest. I do not consider hunting a corn field to be baiting deer however. By the way, WI is full of area's managed by groups and clubs for trophy racks. You pay big money to hunt there and are allowed to only shoot does and certain qualifying bucks. Buffalo county by the MN boader has quite a few of these deer management area's. These are also the clubs bringing the antler growth suppliments in to "help" their deer grow giant racks. That's how we got CWD. I do not really believe that they have it quarantined or managed either.

[Dan Wood]

jlm, sounds simple I agree, but unfortunately it isn't quite that easy... We can always hope people catch on, as they are with C&R, but even with C&R slots and limits are needed most will agree. I don't believe that the majority of hunters are looking for big bucks, so there really is no incentive for them to "catch-on". It would need to be backed with regulations to be successful over the entire state. Just because there are rules in place now doesn't mean that we don't need change.

QDM can and is done without the support of the state, but obviously won't be as effective as it could be for the reasons given.

[Dan Wood]

muskybuck,

The deer herd was/is pretty out of control in WI. Large deer herds get weak and much more susceptible to disease. That is all I meant by that. I'm sure baiting like you said doesn't help at all either.

[Dockter]

If I got a chance to see if I got a buck or not, I would hunt when I got one. Also, if archery was excluded I would more than likely just do that. I could see having a buck lottery for SOME parts of the state. But really, what is deer hunting if you know you don't have a shot at the big one, I think that without that chance deer hunting loses some of it's luster/magic. Wether you want to admit it or not, the truth is every deer hunter envisions himself dragging out that monster deer. I do agree with banning party hunting and having a point limit, but a buck lottery is going way too far in my unexpert opinion.

[huskminn]

Dockter,

There is no doubt that a very high percentage of deer hunters dream about the "big one". Having a lottery system in some areas would allow big ones to grow, in my opinion. But, you're right, a lottery may not be the best management practice for all areas. However, I do think it might enhance the quality of the hunt in some areas that receive a tremendous amount of pressure every single year.

Another thought...MN has various deer hunting zones. If the DNR was serious about managing the herd, why don't they treat each zone as a different season with different licenses? That is, a hunter should be able to shoot as many deer as there are zones or units.

[bigbucks]

QDM, is gradually catching on, most of the hunter's that spend a lot of time in the woods, won't shoot small bucks, or at the least won't shoot multiple small bucks like they would have in the past. I am totally opposed to a lottery system or point restrictions. I agree everybody wants the chance at the big one, should he come along, but most people just want to shoot a deer & we do need to stay on top of this population. What's wrong with that? I've seen more deer & more bucks in the last five years then ever & I've hunted central MN for the last 25 years, so I really don't know where you're coming from dunns.

People used to get way less deer 25 years ago, in our area, but I don't think the bucks were any bigger. There's plenty of big ones out there now, just lots of little ones we need to wade through. I've passed on many, many small bucks this year bowhunting, as I have the last three years. I've shot many, many does over that time. I shot a 6 pointer by accident gun hunting last year, so what? I have now shot two bucks with my bow this year, but most of those I've seen bowhunting are still alive. They didn't get shot during the first gun season anyway. They sure could have, but they didn't. They'll be bigger next year, it doesn't hurt anything to shoot a few small bucks, it's just that people need to not shoot every one they see like in the past.

I agree on the rough winter thing too, so why not shoot a lot of deer? A controlled herd that's got bigger healthier animals has a better chance of surviving a rough winter, as opposed to a whole passle of small ones. I was carefull not to overhunt my place & not scare the deer away, but then apparently crop rotation or the neighbor's dog, who knows, caused them to vacate anyway. I might as well have shot them.

[Dockter]

I think things like hunter QDM and antler restrictions are more viable options to this problem. Hunter education is also a big key...because a lot of the people that crab about no big deer are the same ones who shoot bambi...I for one have passed up herds of spikes, forks, sixs, and even some small eights. I mean it should be more of a hunter option that is enforced by other hunters.......I mean this as hunters pressuring their buddies to pass on the smaller deer and also passing on smaller deer themselves.

[96trigger]

This is an interesting topic, but I am hearing the same thing, We need to practice quality deer management, and we need to have some kind of point system or lottery system. One thing that I think many of us are missing is that the DNR is trying to manage as many deer as possible. They do have fairly accurate counts of deer numbers in your area. It is hard to determine where some people are coming from because of your location. I am in SEMN and bowhunt primarily around Whitewater State Park, I followed large bucks all summer and as soon as October hit, the bucks became more and more nocturnal. The onle deer that I saw in October where numerous does and small bucks. Maybe the fact the we are taking less big bucks is due to the fact that the deer are getting smarter. Monster bucks hide after the first gunshot and don't come out until after the last one. Numerous times I have went out grouse hunting after the firearms season only to have a nice buck standing in front of me.

I don't think that restrictions should be placed on bowhunters, most bowhunters shoot a doe to fill the freezer or wait until a monster buck to shoot at. It's the nice part of bowhunting. In addition, I don't hunt at all in zone 3A, I hunt 3B, moving the buck season later for this season will greatly effect the other. In 3B we rarely see bucks. We hardly ever see shooter bucks. Most of them are still sitting pretty tight. But I enjoy seeing large amounts of does. Anyhow, if we could try and give an indication of where we hunt, it might make the discussion a little better. I know that we can look up the locations of each author but that gets annoying. I also think that with the past winters we have been having have seriously increased the deer population. If you are in an area that has had diminishing deer populations, I would be thinking that there was some kind of predator problem, the two or four legged kind. Remember that the corn crop also plays a large role and this year, much of the corn was still in for deer opener. Much of it is still in right now.

Just my random thoughts.

[IceBound]

I would be 100 percent for a buck lottery system...it wouldn't be any different than a slot limit on fish. Give the deer a few years to grow and then you would hear everyone talking about the "Big Buck" they saw, not...all I see are does and fawns. I understand that the DNR has made getting a deer a numbers thing...and it doesn't seem to be a problem getting at least one doe every year archery hunting, but it would be great having a good chance to harvest a 140" + buck once in a while. The majority of the bucks we see around here are 1 1/2 year olds. I do like the fact the DNR is at least looking at other management practices...it shows that they are trying to make the hunt enjoyable for everyone. Perhaps more State Parks could become similar to the type of hunts at Camp Ripley...protect the deer for the majority of the year and open it up to a limited special hunt. I know some are doing that now...guess I'll have to look into it next year.

[Dockter]

A buck lottery system is NOT a slot limit! A POINT SYSTEM that is like a slot limit. So I win the lottery, I can still go out and shoot a spiker...it doesn't stop the winner from shoot a spiker or a forkhorn, thus, accomplishing nothing.

[Dockter]

Nicely said my friend....I also checked the regs for wi, Ill, and Ia, NONE OF THEM HAVE A BUCK LOTTERY!!!!! Why would we need to have a buck lottery if all of these states that are "passing us on B&C bucks list" don't have that?? I mean come on, i don't want the chance at the big one ruined for hunters across the state, and I don't think outrageous things like this would ever become law anyway........

[Captain B.R.K]

Quote:

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How many hunters wouldn't go hunting if you couldn't shoot a buck during gun season? How many of you keep a limit of 4-7 pound walleyes? I usually release them so that someday I might catch a trophy. If hunters themselves can set standards to what type of deer they shoot, then the DNR shouldn't have to step in. There are trophy deer out there and everyone wants a shot at one. Hopefully there is a way to give everyone that shot.

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The DNR puts restrictions on those lakes that you cannot keep 4-7lb fish. It isn't JUST the fisherman showing judgement and wanting to catch fish another day. The DNR has regulated what can vs what can't be taken home.

I would like to see the DNR take an area and do a special season on it for the purpose of our topic here. See what kind of results it has.

[Dockter]

Maybe a special season....but not for the regular season.........