lottery system for Bucks

[walleye_dan]

I was just reading the newspaper and there was a article about a DNR survey that was given to deer hunters. One thing that caught my eye is a lottery system for bucks. According to the survey 60% of deer hunters are apposed to a lottery system for bucks. I know alot of people that only hunt for bucks, and they would never go for something like this. I don't think it would be that bad of an idea. I was just wondering what other hunters think about a lottery system for bucks in Minnesota.

[HC Eye Hunter]

It is my opinion that if we had a some sort of lottery system like the states that use we would see a noticable difference in the quality of our bucks. After all look at the quality coming out of those states, if it works for them why wouldn't it work in Minnesota?

It comes down to quality or quantity for deer management in Minnesota. I have passed on a lot of bucks over the years only to see them pounded by someone else. In my part of the state a 2 1/2 year or older buck is rare. Our buck to doe ratio is way out of wack and the major breeders are (yearlings)1 1/2 year old bucks. I remember when Minnesota used to be a major player for record book bucks and now the big ones mostly come from states like Iowa and Kansas.

It is not for me or anyone to tell someone what deer to shoot and what to pass up but I do think there needs to be some sort of change in our deer management policies.

My .02

HC

[BLACKJACK]

As far as I'm concerned, deer hunting in MN is as good as its ever been! You can shoot a doe (or two) early in the season, archery or gun, and then its up to you what type of buck you want to shoot. The big boys are out there, you just have to hunt them down. Watch the pictures of big bucks that show up on this forum, in your local bait shop, and especially all the nice bucks in the Outdoor News. The big bucks are there. Trouble is, people are afraid to put in the time and effort to hunt them down, they want it 'legistlated' by the DNR that more big bucks will be around. The dirty little secret about QDM is that more does will be shot, meaning less deer all around. I remember the days when you could only shoot one deer, and if you didn't get a doe permit, you were buck hunting only - it got to be a long season! Leave the deer hunting exactly the way it is, its as good as I've ever seen it in 25 years of deer hunting!!!

[JMR]

I don't know if a lottery system is the best answer. I would think something along the lines of not hunting during the "Peak" of the rut like they do in Wisconsin and most other states would be a better solution. With that being said, I would be chastised in our group for sugesting that the season be changed. There are many hunters out there that are 100% satisfied with the number of deer they are seeing today. And I too like to go out and see alot of deer, it makes time on the stand pass by fast. I think it has to be up to each individual group if they want to practice QDM. Now if I could just get the majority of our group to see things the same way! And the neighbors. This is a good subject with a wide range of opinions, lets hear others thoughts or ideas.

[BLACKJACK]

I also think a later season would help, two out of the three bucks (they were also the biggest bucks) we shot this weekend were with does. Two problems you would have would be more bow hunters (would they cut them back if too many people started bowhunting?) and colder, crummier weather later in the season ruining the hunt and cutting down on the harvest.

[Dockter]

I think a lottery system for bucks is useless when the system is working well....

[Jeremy Donabauer]

For those of you who aren't familiar with central MN our deer herd is in desperate need of reform. We used to be able to drive around and glass before the opener and see at least 15 deer a night, now you are lucky to see one or two. We also used to shoot giant bucks until the deer herd was totally wiped out by the abundance of doe tags. In one day in the early 90's my dad and I downed a 145" 8pt, a 155" 10pt, and a 205" 19 pt non-typical. These bucks were deer that we let walk for a few years and they turned into what MN can really produce. We used to pass up 20-50 deer per weekend now if you're lucky you might see 2. People who don't believe this are either in denial or didn't actually hunt here when central MN was a deer factory.

Before the conception of all the doe permits MN WAS THE LEADING PRODUCER OF BOONE AND CROCKETT BUCKS IN THE WORLD...that is not a coincidence- now we are down to like number 10 because states and provinces have figured out a way to manage such a great resource. Any tactic the DNR can use should be done fast and right now. Many states have a drawing for bucks and works out excellent, one of the problems is is that the DNR needs to keep the dollars coming in so they opt for quantity instead of quality at the expense of the deer and the hunter after a bug buck. Hunters should start to realize that they should be shooting a doe before they shoot these young bucks it is very elementary.

1.However one thing I think should be left alone is letting the youngsters shoot whatever they want.

2.Get the season opener away from the rut.

3.Ban all party hunting.

4. Either a point restriction or lottery for bucks.

Then watch as MN once again climbs to the top in record books.

[Dockter]

I would be willing to support some type of point restriction....if you can't tell about how many points are on your deer difference between a spiker or fork and a six), you shouldn't be shooting it anyway! I also think that the deer heard should be managed on a case by case basis, depending on the area. I know from shining and glassing in southeast minnesota that I see PLENTY of deer and a lot of good bucks on a daily basis. Along with a point system,also maybe a buck lottery for Non Residents would be a good option to have!!

[jlm]

MN is number 4 I believe as far as record book bucks go. I think WI, IL, and IA are now above MN as far as entires go. There is one vast difference between MN and these states which must be considered. First off, MN has more public land than any other state which does not boad well for any type of trophy management. Second, all of these states have major outfitters and guides who manage thousands of acres of land which allows for some monster bucks. There are very few outfitters in MN, especially ones with lots of acreage. I would speculate that the majority of these monster bucks come from managed land or land adjacent to managed land.

I do not feel that a lottery system would benefit us as far a large bucks go. If you think about it, about half of the harvest is bucks in this state. If we have a lottery, about half would be for bucks and the rest does..I think we would have almost the same number of bucks taken in the state. The only way to really do it is to have about 1/3 of the harvest to be bucks...that spells lots of unhappy hunters. Along with this, there will be a significant rise in the harvest of does and in some areas this will be very damaging to the population...it might even mean that some people will not get to hunt where they want because there would be an over harvest of does and they can't shoot a buck. I agree that doe numbers are high but this is not a static situation, us older hunters are more wise and know what can happen with one really bad Winter. The best option, in my opinion, is to begin setting standards for yourself and your party of hunters and to practice some form of QDM. QDM is catching on like mad and in a few years, you will see a much different outlook for this state. We will have a better harvest of bigger bucks and the doe population will be in check. Sorry for getting on my soap box! Good luck and let the little ones go...if you choose to do so!

[Dockter]

Well said my friend....I do NOT think that buck lottery is the way to go!!

[Jeremy Donabauer]

MN may be number 4 as far as all-time but as far as yearly data goes we have fallen off the charts. Especially with the number of hunters that hunt here you would think it would be higher but its not. WI, IA, IL, KS, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, are for sure ahead of us on the yearly totals.

[Dockter]

Like Dan mentioned though, a lot of it comes down to public hunting land....I personally think that a buck lottery is pointless because that is what a lot of people go into the woods after. I would think that a buck lottery would discourage a some people from hunting. Would bow hunters have to have a buck lottery also?? What are your (Dunns) feelings on having a point limit then?

[Jeremy Donabauer]

Point restrictions would be even better than a lottery. Because then you MUST be aware of your target and everyone who wants to shoot a buck can. It would save a ton of 1 1/2 year old deer. But I still think the youngsters should be able to shoot anything they want for their first year or two.

[Dockter]

yes, youth (15 and under) should ahve free range of deer, because if they sit there and don't get to shoot anything, it is not going to make them want to come do it more! And I am glad that a points system would be more to your liking....

[JMR]

How about doing something in reverse of when I started hunting. I could shoot either a buck or a doe, even though the older guys had to draw a doe tag. So a young kid could shoot either sex but the adults would have to shoot something with 6 points or better, or a doe. One major problem is the issue of forcing ethics on hunters. On one hand it's managing the herd like having to draw a doe permit, on the other hand, it's telling someone what quality of deer they should be shooting.

[Dockter]

I think that antler restrictions would be better accepted than a buck lottery!

[Jeremy Donabauer]

Many other states do these types of management. I think if we could help people understand this will work they would be in favor. Some people are caught up in their ways and won't even listen to change. I also think we have a population of older hunters that say "oh its just fine" They area the ones (not all of them) that go on the lakes and catch 5 inch bluegills and keep them so they got a "limit"

[HC Eye Hunter]

Dunns is right. Mn has taken a major fall in the world of big bucks. I know there are some big bucks in Mn but it is Nothing like it once was.

I live in the western part of the state and we are faced with the same thing dunns refered to earlier. Our deer quality as a whole is not in good shape.

I don't know if point restrictions will work. There are alot of 1 1/2 year old bucks that sport basket 6,8 and even 10 points. So basicly under point restrictions we would just be passing on the inferior yearling bucks and killing the bucks with good genetics.

[JMR]

HC,

You're right, I started thinking of my last post and realized that it would just result in a bunch of 1 1/2 & 2 1/2 year olds being shot. It would improve the quality some what but not to what it should be. More does would be shot but that wouldn't really help with the quality of bucks.

[Jeremy Donabauer]

If the season would take place after the heart of the rut then the problem of superior genetics being passed on would be eliminated. But we all know that some older deer don't sport high scoring racks but they do have the body size to beat the @$%^ out of smaller bucks that may have better genetics.

[iffwalleyes]

dunns I completely agree with you. I have hunted the same spot in MN for 13 years now and have harvested one trophey buck in that time. We used to have guys always get a 8-10 point every year for years know it seems we are luckey to see spikes and basket rack deer. I now live in ND and have been part of the lottery system. Every year I put in for buck only and have been drawen for a buck every year since. I have seen several buck out here and I think that they have a better management program than the DNR in MN has. I would be a strong support of lottery in MN.

[Captain B.R.K]

It would be interesting to get the DNR's point of view on this. Just this last weekend I was talking to someone and we agreed that MN should do something about the size of a rack (say 3X3 or 4X4) and taking deer based on their rack size.

Isn't the problem that some younger deer will have bigger racks than older deer because of nutrients?

Maybe after the DNR is done with the chronic wasting disease piece, they may turn their attention to the deer harvest.

For me it's not about numbers, but about quality. I'm new into deer hunting and yeah, I would love to shoot a deer out everytime if possible.....but to have 5 deer in possesion in some counties, give me a break!

[Dockter]

Would bow hunters have to have a lottery??

[jt24]

I will agree that there certainly needs to be something done whether its a lottery or points restriction. I also will add that comparing MN to some other states like IA isnt really apples to apples. I think some of the problem is that in MN it takes longer to grow bigger bucks than states like IA or OH. A 2 1/2 yr old buck in MN might only have a little basket where in lets say OH a buck of the same age will be a wall hanger. I have proof on my wall from OH and its unreal for a deer of that age to carry a rack of that size and here its not even possible at that age anyways. Dont get me wrong MN can grow big bucks as the Outdoor News shows but it is certainly going the wrong direction. Like was stated earlier if one was to pass on smaller bucks whos to say your neighbor wont shoot it? I hunt for horns and pass on small ones every year but do they make it until next year??? I can only hope! Moving the season later is also a good point but will recieve lots of complaints from the gun hunters. Maybe after the CWD the DNR will look at controlling how our bucks are being taken?

[N_Foster]

I do agree that there are some 1 1/2 year old bucks that do sport 8 or maybe ten points on thier small basket racks. But I also think antler point restrictions would be the most effective way to improve the quality of bucks in Minnesota. Yes, some younger deer would still be shot using this method, but I would venture to guess that 80% of bucks this age will not have 8 legal points. The remaining 20%(just an approximation) young bucks with 8-10 points usually have really small points and would be hard to count in many situations where they would be shot, meaning the hunter SHOULD pass on them because he or she couldn't be sure it was a legal buck.

I also think that many hunters are kind-of on the fence on the subject of passing up small bucks. Why?, because of the reason the previous poster mentioned, they don't know if the guy across the fence is gonna harvest him as soon as he lets him pass. I think any type of management where hunters would let the small ones grow would be strongly supported by this unspoken group.

In my opinion, deer hunting is a yearly tradition that involves "getting the shot at the big one", and to me, a buck lottery would destroy what I and many others come to yearn for each and every fall season.

[riverrat56]

I personally think a point restriction would be better than a buck lottery, also maybe brow tines shoulst count as points so a buck would acctually hafta to have 4 points on one side, there arent many 1 1/2 year old deer with 4 points on one side and i would hate to be sitting in my stand and have my first chance at a trophy buck and not have a buck tag. Another thing that is a problem is the buck to do ratio, i think that for a few years they should have a doe's only early/ late season.

[Dockter]

RIGHT ON!! Your statements are exactally correct my friend. If I was denied my chance at the big one, I honestly would stop hunting here and hunt in another state!! I mean I think that denying people the right to shoot a monster takes some of the fun and mystery out of the hunt, to be quite honest. There woudl still be fun, but it would also be painful to watch a true giant walk because you did not get a tag, that is something that I could not bear!!! I am glad someone else sees the light!!!

[Polar Bear]

Heres a direct quote from a retired DNR biologist who used to work out of the Farmland Research Center near Madelia:

"The goal of the DNR is to put a 130 pound deer in every hunters freezer"

Their mindset won't change as long as their funding is tied to the number of licenses sold. Fewer sold means smaller budgets. A lottery will never happen in Minnesota.

Polar Bear

[Dockter]

Maybe not a lottery, but a point system could be

that wouldn't make any numbers go down, taht would just make people more act more conservative, it would be easier to pass on that 6 pointer because they know their neighbor is not going to take him....like someone said before. I saw a decent 8 the other night bow hunting, but his rack was still small and he looked like a 1-2 year old. I had a reservation though, because I hunt public land and while I WANT him to grow into a big one I am afraid that someone else wont' care!

[oilguy]

How many of you fellow hunters WORRY if more record bucks come from other states. I certainly hope the Mossy Oak tumor (the WWF of hunting) isn't growing into our great state to that degree. I'll bet that the vast majority of "record" bucks killed in MN aren't even measured. Measuring deer justifies the FEE you have to pay in the south.