Did anyone see this article?

[huskminn]

Borch,

I did a little digging....as you suggested one might do. Although much of the BIA's web site is down due to pending court cases (of which there are many), I was able to get some information, none the less.

It is apparent that the federal gov't through all recent administrations (both Dem and Rep) has been very much in favor of protecting and encouraging each tribe's opportunity for self-determination through sovereignty. A 1994 proclamation reiterated long-standing policies regarding this and ensured that the tribe's right to sovereignty was not to be diminished.

The Indian Gaming Act of 1988 set forth regulations on Indian gaming in all states. It basically stated that a tribe can do any gaming that is already allowed within the state and, as long as the state approves it, they can offer more types of gambling (Class III games like blackjack, etc.). Obviously, the state of MN agreed to allow Class III gambling on reservations, although not off reservations. The federal gov't relinquished some of the tribe's sovereignty by forcing them to negotiate with the state prior to introducing Class III games.

With all that having been said, I found some info on Indian trust lands and property tax status of the lands. Borch, you are right. Here is some info from the MN Indian Gaming Association web site. (Keep in mind that the tribe is its own government, ostensibly acting in the best interest of its own people):

"Some tribes have begun purchasing land that once belonged to them, now that they have the economic resources to do so. They need the land for government purposes, to accommodate growth, housing and development on the reservation. There is precedent for taking land off the tax rolls when there is an overriding public interest in doing so. The State of Minnesota, the University of Minnesota, churches, counties, municipalities and school districts are all tax exempt, based on the assumption that the use to which they put these lands benefits the entire community.

The process required to take land into trust is complex and rigorous. The request for transfer must be approved by the Secretary of the Interior, after consultation with state and local officials and neighboring tribes. Not all requests for land transfers are approved by the Secretary. In fact, a recent federal court decision has called into question the entire process of transferring land into trust and raised questions about the status of trust lands acquired under the process. This case was recently remended by the Supreme Court for further consideration in light of new federal regulations."

This info may be incomplete and biased becuase of its source, however, it does describe the process.

Another thing to mention is that, because a tribal gov't is it's own government, Indian gaming is gov't gaming. The federal gov't (and state gov't) cannot currently tax Indian gaming revenues.....just like the federal gov't can't tax MN gaming revenues (Minnesota State Lottery).

It is now very obvious to me that any potential changes in sovereignty, gaming rights, treaty rights and taxation issues all stand at the federal level. It seems very unlikely that the BIA or Congress will attempt to diminish a tribe's sovereignty due to the long standing idea that they earned the right to sovereignty after much of their land was taken away. There is also a big push from the feds for there to be economic self-sufficiency on reservations (which there should be!). Historically, casinos have been the most successful economic venture ever attempted on reservations. For that reason, I think federal officials will be very reluctant to change the status quo.

Borch, you mentioned a strong arm takeover. That's an interesting comment. I wonder what power the federal gov't has over prosecuting tribes for anti-trust violations? If the MLB ends up controlling most of the economy around Mille Lacs, can anyone do anything about it?

If the Mille Lacs economy ends up functioning on Indian Trust land, not much can be done. So, the crux of the "takeover", as you put it Borch, seems to be dependent upon the BIA classifying these land and business purchases as Trust land.

This is a federal issue, folks. Who are you going to vote for this fall?

[Borch]

Huskminn,

Thanks for taking the time to dig. I am concerned by what appears to be happening right before our eyes. Not so much as to what will occur next season but rather long term to the fishery and the area as a whole.

[huskminn]

Borch,

I would have to agree. It is a very troubling situation, indeed. Some of this makes the slot limit and hooking mortality rate seem like small potatoes.

Good luck.

[Kidd]

Let's remember people, not all the monies generated by the casino goes into purchasing surrounding land and businesses. Here’s an a examples of tribal expenditures that benefit all Minnesotans.
The water of Mille Lacs Lake has been at risk from inadequate septic systems along the western shore. A growing population near the lake has increased the pressure on these aging facilities. Fifteen years ago, the City of Garrison studied the situation and decided a solution would be too expensive for that community to undertake by itself. In 1999, it asked the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe for help, and the Band agreed.
As a result, the Garrison Kathio West Mille Lacs Sanitary Sewer District was formed, and plans for a new treatment plant began. The cost of construction for the treatment plant is $12 million. U.S. Representative James Oberstar obtained congressional approval for a $7.7 million federal grant for construction of the new plant, and the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe will pay the rest. No local or state tax money will be involved in construction of this plant. The new plant will be a not-for-profit facility owned by the Band and operating under a board of directors made up of members from the Band and the Sanitary District.
The Sanitary District, which covers non-Indian lands between the City of Garrison and the Mille Lacs Reservation, will build a collection system at a cost of $16 million to collect and transport its waste to the Band’s treatment plant. This unique partnership between Garrison and the Band helps Garrison solve its wastewater treatment problem at a much lower cost because the city will not need to build its own treatment plant.
This project, which will protect Mille Lacs Lake from pollution for years to come, presents a wonderful opportunity for progress through cooperation between non-Indian communities and the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe. There are those who mistakenly see this cooperation and its environmental goal as some plot to expand Indian jurisdiction. There is no plot. But there is a commitment to keeping Minnesota’s most important lake clean and to extending a helping hand. Minnesota and the Mille Lacs Lake area will get a first-rate wastewater treatment facility at a greatly reduced cost to state and local taxpayers, while protecting a priceless sports and tourist attraction from pollution.

ONAMIA, Minn. - The Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe is building more than 25 homes in 2002 - more than it has ever built before in one year - to help meet the housing needs of its members who live on the reservation.

These homes, which are completely funded by the Mille Lacs Band, will be used for the Band's home ownership, rental housing, Elder housing, and home replacement programs. Twenty-seven homes are set to be completed by September 2002, and more are slated for completion by late this year or next year. Based on several different designs, these homes each feature two to four bedrooms, one or two bathrooms, and a two-stall garage. The home sites are in various locations across the reservation.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago when the taxpayer was building these homes.

If you want even more insight to where the lions share of the money goes; visit
http://www.millelacsojibwe.org/welcome.html

It may open some eye's and stop this nonsense about boycotting tribal owned business, which will only result in placing these burdens back on the taxpayer.

[This message has been edited by Kidd (edited 08-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kidd (edited 08-23-2002).]

[mistermom]

Hi Kidd!

I checked out the website and it is quite interesting and well done. However, we still have a 14-16 inch slot, 29 inch walleyes that weigh 5 lbs, and the Band is buying resorts and other lands and businesses. I don't have numbers but I speculate that many of these businesses sold because they were dying as a direct or indirect result of the current situation.

mistermom

[huskminn]

Kidd,

I don't think anyone ever implied that every dime of casino money was going to taking over the rest of the world.

As I said in previous postings, the casino is the most economically viable move towards self-sufficiency that the reservations have ever seen. A casino provides employment and a voluntary tax base that just keeps right on paying.

I can assure you that taxpayer subsidy of the MLB hasn't been reduced by the same amount that the tribe's revenues have increased from gambling. I haven't noticed my taxes going down recently due to casinos being built all over the country. And I bet the BIA budget is more than it was five or ten years ago.

Your examples are ones of new spending. I'd like to see articles on how current spending burden is being pulled off the general taxpayer's shoulders and put onto the casino goer's shoulders. I know that's a lot to ask in this state......neither Wellstone or Dayton would ever do anything that actually reduced funding to a program.

Don't get me wrong......any tribal gov't who takes an active role in self-determination of its people should be applauded. That is a breath of fresh air. The MLB is really making an effort in getting its members involved in the local economy. It has a small business development program that has worked very well (compared to other reservations). Obviously, if one is trying to run a business near Mille Lacs, it's most likely going to be something similar to what is already there. Resorts, gas stations, motels, etc. You said it yourself.....the lion's share of the money is being spent on growing Indian housing and the Indian economy. You have to have land and businesses to do that.

Kidd, I think it is ridiculous for you to ask some people here to "stop this nonsense about boycotting tribal owned business". Don't you think consumers are free to shop where they please?

The only serious beef I have with this whole situation is that the Mille Lacs Band should not be able to purchase a mult-million dollar resort and then remove it from the property tax roles. I don't honestly know if this has happened, but the goal is certainly to turn all new land into Trust land. Tribes get too much subsidy from taxpayers already.....they shouldn't be allowed to increase the tax burden of surrounding property owners.

And just so you know.....I'm also against much of the State of MN's push to buy more land....taking land out of the private sector is not a very good thing. It limits growth and economy.

[Guest]

Huskminn,

I never really meant to relate a state run casino and how it would impact the fishing on Mille Lacs. Though a casino could play some role, by providing additional funds.

Good Luck,
Rusty

[Kidd]

Huskminn and mistermom, good post’s, I know this is a sensitive subject and I appreciate both of you taking the time to read and understand the points I was trying to make. I know we don’t agree on all these points and both of you pointed out our differences without introducing name-calling. Thanks.
To continue our differences;
Mistermom - I don’t think we can lay the blame of 14-16 in slots solely on the Band; the DNR is in charge of setting the non-Indian regulations. I think the DNR is out of whack with the way they estimate the fish population resulting in these ridiculous restrictions.
Huskminn – This is Minnesota, land of 10,000 taxes. Regardless of the amount of income generated by any source, you’ll never see your tax burden reduced. What you are seeing however is less tax monies being spend on band members and redirected to other spending, such as road improvements etc. Like you said, Wellstone and Dayton never met a tax they didn’t like. As for the boycott; yes, people are free to shop where they please, however when we start advocating a boycott we need to take the full ramification of that action into account. If a total boycott of band business were to be successful it would have a great economic affect on the total region, not just band members. Banks would lose, businesses that rely on casino and band owned resort visitors would either go bankrupt or have greatly reduced incomes. Local building contractors would lose, along with all their band and non-band employees. Our tax money would be redirected from other projects back to building and supporting the band. The list goes on and on. One last thing, I believe it is extremely difficult for the band to cede purchased business and land into the reservation. Just because a business is owned by a band member, it does not remove it from the tax roles. Only business within the reservation is excluded.
Thanks for listening.

[mistermom]

Thanks Kidd,

I try to keep it cival. I think it is just a good policy.

The Mille Lacs Band I believe is doing what is in their own best interest. Playing hardball with the dnr on the safe allowable harvest is in their own best interest. The phenomenal bite (is done?) won't last forever. Mille lacs would have been very empty this summer if the bite had been lousy. I just can't imagine lots of anglers going out and catching a few and unable to keep many or any.

In recent weeks the Band is saying that because non-band harvest this year is way over the agreed upon safe harvest limit, the dnr should count the overage against next years quota and shut down fishing immediately. That would be an absolute disaster for businesses in the area that rely on walleye anglers money. It would be bad for the Band owned businesses that rely on walleye anglers too. The critical difference is: How long do you think "the Grand Casinos" can keep a losing business or businesses afloat? I would think indefinetly. How long can a non-band business lose money? Anyway, just my thought s on the subject. Later.

mistermom

[Walleye_GFA]

Nothing will change till the fed govnt grows a set of balls and ammends the treaties... some of the only documents to not be ammended in 200 years. The were not written for today, think of the real intent. But nobody wants to be "bad" and take away their "rights".. but they gladly take our money for medical and highway uses... they pay no taxes, and contribute little to society (do they even pay for car tabs here)... sorry if this offends someone, but it is the tribe and the people, they stand at the corners to take our tax dollars at every turn. And give nothing but threats in return. They are lucky the Spanish did not win the war. If someone knows what the tribes contribute to our society, please let me know... I find little value to a group of peopele who are allowed more rights than the rest... hrm sounds like discrimination to me... but oh yea "we" stole their land... sad we are still making ammends for the alleged "sins of the father".

Im not a negative person so I dont want to hear that I should smell the flowers because I do, but it is my responsibility to try and keep these takers in check (for my kids)... they win battle after battle in court because we dont have enough people looking after our rights. They now want a mediator, heck who represents us ?? The DNR >??? LAUGHABLE... maybe I should demand money from the Feds,,, like the Indians do... oh yea, I cant since my skin is white (aka Im not a registered indian)...

Walleye_GFA

[huskminn]

Kidd,

You are right that a total boycott of doing business with Tribe owned enterprises would have a noticeable effect on the Mille Lacs economy in general. I don't believe a total boycott will ever happen....there are too many folks that like to gamble that have no interest in fishing on Mille Lacs or in the issues that we have been discussing.

I agree that the DNR has dropped the ball in many ways. Dennis Anderson's article in todays Strib identifies the overall problem as systemic--I have to agree with him. The Mille Lacs management policy has been flat and reactive.....there is little energy and absolutely no leadership. Hard decisions need to be made.

Your comments regarding MN and state taxes are accurate. I hope you are wrong about never seeing taxes reduced....eventually that will force me to leave the state. However, the taxation issue vis-a-vis the MLB is a federal one. The funding that went to building new homes and starting new tribal member businesses ostensibly came from the Band itself. I'm sure there are many other reservation improvements that have occured, as well. It is my belief that federal funding for this new spending would not be easily attainable, which is why the MLB paid for it. Because I don't think the new spending would have occured with tax money anyway, I think it's hard to say that our tax burden has been reduced. Is the MLB spending reducing my future tax burden? Perhaps, but that remains to be seen. If you have evidence that BIA funding has been shifted to other federal programs, I'd love to see it.

Although I have no numbers to back it, I stand by my original theory that federal funding to all reservations (via the BIA) has not been reduced. The reason why I picked on Wellstone and Dayton is because they are "our voice" in the Senate. They are the ones who have the final vote reducing funding to the BIA.

Lastly, I don't honestly know how difficult or easy it is for various tribes to get newly aquired real estate classified as Trust land. You think it may be very difficult, I don't know. I suppose somewhere there are numbers on this and perhaps I'll try to find them. There is some precedence, though, that when a tribe really wants to get something approved, it can. Reference the political contributions and flat out bribes that Bruce Babbitt took several years ago from a Wisconsin band that wanted build a casino. I liked him fairly well until that went down.

You're right. Just because a business is owned by the Tribe (or a member) doesn't mean it or its employees are removed from property and federal income tax roles. However, if that business/land is Trust land, property taxes are not owed and employees do not pay federal income taxes if they live and work on Trust land. That is why I see Trust land as being the crux of any potential increase in the property tax burdens of the rest of the jurisdiction.

Anyway, yes, good, civil discussion. Gotta bet back to work....daylight is burning.

[Guest]

Some irony here?

If there is one thing we have taught the tribes: give me a thousand to one odds, and we will flock to take that one chance. Either monies or walleyes.

Even if the slot is whatever, if there is the slightest chance of a trophy fish, they will come. Dont for a minute think the tribes dont know this, as long as there is a "chance" the lake will survive (or the businesses) Put one photo in the paper of a 32+inch fish, and watch em come.

I made a comment about the old doggers on oxegen tanks at the casino's. You know they are on a very tight budget, but that slight chance will make them pack up their wheel chairs, O2 tanks, perscriptions (that they cant afford,) some dog food sandwiches and HIT THE CASINO! There is one born every minute, we need better lawyers or a better lobbying group, or I will say it again, LETS BUY US A POLITICIAN! Lord knows, Dayton and Wellstone are for sale. Lets file the barbs off our hooks?

[avrg.joe]

HAT'S OFF ALL,
I have greatly enjoyed reading your thoughts and insights without any name calling.
I have not stepped into any casino other than Las Vegas since the whole lawsuit thing began. That being said, I am not trying to hurt any individual person that lives on the reservation. Most of the big money goes to an elite few, with little getting down to the average resident on the reservation. With all the money flowing though the tribal government, why is there still so much poverty?
My mesage to the tribe is,
1. Stop netting
2. Untie the hands of the DNR
3. Stop the lawsuits
4. Sit down with the state and negotiate a reasonable compromise
Let's face it, what's happening now benefits no one.

[tjz123]

There seems to be alot of resentment on this topic concerning the Mille Lacs Lake Band and the D.N.R.and it seems to be totally misdirected. The D.N.R. and the Band had an agreement all worked out so that the Band could net and spear approximately 4.5% of the lake and would have received a stipend of around ten million dollars. Greedy Bud Grant(a cheese-head who doesn't live here and never won anything big) and P.E.R.M. challenged the settlement and guess what ???? They lost and so did the rest of the state.Now the Band has access to ALL of Mille Lacs and numerous other lakes.
Maybe it is time to move on and not blame the Band for what happened and to put the blame where it belongs....squarely on Bud and the resort/land owners. Maybe another settlement could be negotiated with the Band.
Maybe a total catch lenght,say 45 inches would work better than the slot now imposed.It would allow mortally-hooked fish to be kept (and not left for turtle and seagull food) and would satisfy the people that want to keep a few fish for a fish-fry.

------------------

[Guest]

TJ............I like yer thinking........thats a good one. Still gives a guy a chance for a trophy or some vittles.

[Kidd]

Dinosaur, Bud and PERM had more than just an opinion on it. My memory is good, but it's also short so correct me where I'm wrong. I remember the DNR trying to negotiate an agreement with the band and PERM made the decision to take the case to the federal courts. Once that happened the DNR no longer had any say in the matter, as this was a federal case and the rest is history. I took this right off the PERM.org site.

"A settlement agreement between the State DNR and Band was voted down by the Legislature in 1993 due to strong public opposition. Since then, seven other Chippewa bands and the U.S. government joined the Mille Lacs Band as plaintiffs, and several counties and landowners joined the State as defendants."

I don't agree with the ruling, I think it stinks and I think it was political posturing by the judges as opposed to a decision based on treaty law.

[This message has been edited by Kidd (edited 08-27-2002).]

[avrg.joe]

The agreement between the tribe and the dnr lokked good on the outside. Only 4.5 acres, 10,000,000 dollars? We'd be better off right? I don't think so. If the state payed off the chippewa tribe, the seven other tribes that are netting the area would be at the states door for a hand out.

I'll do the math;
4.5 acres X Seven tribes + the chippewa = 36 acres. 36 Acres don't sound like much compared to the whole lake, but just as many fish could be taken out of a smaller area.

10,000,000 for the chippewa + 70,000,000 for the other 7 tribes = 80,000,000 dollars, EIGHTY MILLION.

Even in hindsight, I don't see we would be better off if the state would have settled. (Just my humble opinion)

There is no doubt, we've got a mess.

GOOD LUCK TO US ALL!!!!!

[Guest]

Putting the blame on anyone is not going to resolve anything. But certainly one cannot blame Bud Grant or PERM for having an opinion and fighting for what they believed in. (I believe they were in the right myself.) We all need to come together and get a hold on what is happening to the region before it is too late. The slot needs to be adjusted, and not on the short side either. Paying off the band is a ridiculous plan that won't work. We need to seek out other solutions.

Good Luck,
Rusty

[Guest]

TJZ: Bud and Perm may have had an opinion on the topic , but it was the state that pulled the plug on any settlement.

[Guest]

As a land owner in Mille Lacs County I feel the pain as much as anyone. I never want to be associated with finger pointing in any debate over the issues and I have mellowed a bit over the years.
I would like to correct a couple of points in a previous post. I pulled out my folder of info I have kept and see in a ML Messenger front page from 11/10/92 that the DNR negotiated settlement was to include 6,000 acres which is approximately 4.5% of the total lake. This would have been for the ML band only and they would have had exclusive control. It appears that after the legislature voted down this agreement the other Ojibwe tribes from Wisconsin decided to enter the fray. They would have been able to go anywhere , not just the exclusive area from the previous verbal settlement.
I do have a copy of a PERM newsletter from 05/95 which has a very good review of all the facts up to that point. It has been a very tough battle since then and there is no sign of an easy solution.
Thanks for some very interesting dialog on some of the previous posts.
Dino