Did anyone see this article?

[BigPointBlake]

Here is intersting article I seen today.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/533/3167543.html

Hopefuly I posted the link correctly. If not check out Dennis Anderson's column on the Star Tribune page.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 08-27-2002).]

[Guest]

Looks like things could get very interesting in the next year. Lets hope the state has the guts to finally tell the band where to stich it!

[Guest]

The state cannot do that, it doesn't look good.

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MILLE LACS AREA GUIDE SERVICE
651-271-5459 http://fishingminnesota.com/millelacsguide/
click here

[BLACKJACK]

I wonder what the people that fought the settlement that the DNR had worked out are thinking now? Right now that monetary settlement is looking pretty good!!!!

[huskminn]

I'm with you D-man.....this doesn't look good.

I wasn't aware that the DNR's three year harvest plan wasn't accepted by the Bands...or was it and now they are reneging?

[bigeyes]

It would be interesting to see how many of those mortality pounds were directly from lindy rigging. Don't get me wrong, I love to fish that way, but it's probably be too hard on a lake that is mainly catch and release. I don't like it, but we may have to give up this type of fishing on Mille Lacs in order to keep a few fish. Next years limit will probably be 2 between 14 1/16 and 14 1/8.

[vikes40for60]

I posted this artice this morning with the heading

"Chippewas want to curtail Mille Lacs walleye harvest"

Either the post was erased or it was not inserted correctly. Either way, I am very skeptical of a resoulution and very concerned for next year.

Hmmmm, wait and see.

[potto]

I really enjoy fishing Mille Lacs....you can't find that kind of action anywhere...even in Canada....

Accordingly I wish to keep the fishing good for years to come. The slot is small...yes...but thats why you keep catching the big ones(even if you can't keep them)...its a pleasure knowing them for a little glimpse.

I question how they can really accuratley judge the poundage taken from the lake... I never was asked by the DNR "how many pounds I took?" , rarley asked " Do you have fish in your live well" and never asked ' can I take a look at your catch?"

I think the real issue should not be changing the slot or poundage taken, but " what do we need to sustain the excellent fishing that Mille lacs has?" I don't believe a barbless hook mandate will help at all. Is the DNR going to check rigs? Doubt it. They should really look at growing the forage base and improving the habitat for forage.

No one can do anything about the weather. Lets work together to preserve what we got.

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Anglin' Freak

[Hoyter]

The biggest problem I see right now is the estimated hooking mortality. Currently the hooking mortality number is 1.5 times the harvested number. I know people reported seeing a lot of dead fish, but later reports stated most were not walleyes. Do most people believe there is really 237,000 pounds of dead fish due to hook mortality? If this is true, the barbless hook proposal will only ease that number slightly because the stress involved in the fight and the warming water temperatures and the major contributors. Deeply hooked fish will still be injured regardless of whether or not the hook is cut off or removed (barbless or not), but I don't think death rate is as high as currently estimated.

[This message has been edited by Hoyter (edited 08-16-2002).]

[avrg.joe]

Hoyter, I agree 10,000%. There is no way in h*ll 237,000 lbs of walleyes died from hook and line!!!! NOt even CLOSE!!!!

I hate to do it, but I'm very close to moving my fish house/cabin somewhere else. My heart goes out to all the resort owners up there who could loose everything.

By the way, if you see me in the casino, call the cops. Cause someone shot me and drug my dead body in there. nuf said

[Guest]

Loose Lipps Sink Next Years Trips!

That was the jist of an earlier post that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle?

When you see the DNR stating:

"nearly 237,000 pounds died because of hooking mortality after being caught and released."

Where do you think they get those numbers? How much of that poundage is the guy bragging about the 120 fish day he had yesterday?

If the DNR wants honest creel information to work with, then they need to ask for it, not go trolling around the landings, making policy from Bovine Waste.

And "WE" collectivly need to keep our mouths shut until they agree to do so.

If "OUR" information is honestly given, and "HONESTLY USED" it will be a potent tool in the management of the lake. It is also the one and only bargining tool we have to work with, other than just walking away from the lake.

I would not be adverse to filling out a trip report on a mail/on-line basis for each trip to ANY lake if I knew that the information was enabling better management of the lakes I fish.

But until I see some changes, I for one will answer ANYONES questions with "I had a nice day thank you".

[Guest]

BigEyes

I enjoy rigging too, but usually not until after the air temp has been the 80's long enough that the surface water temp is into the high 70's. Thus most my rigging is done in July and August, of course by then there is probably a Colorado blade on my rig.

But my favorite way to feel a wally bite is while vertical jigging. This seems to be a lost art on Mille Lacs due to the preponderance of rigging on The Big Pond, but give it a try during the first 6 weeks of the season and again in September and October. I fished Mille Lacs this spring (summer?) 4 out of 6 weekends from May 24 to June 28 and every time that I switched from a rig and leech or rig and fathed to a jig with a shiner or rainbow, I caught twice as many fish.

My daughter and I were on the north side of Indian Point on June 7th in a group of about 40 boats. Everyone was pulling rigs (including us) and everyone was catching a fish about every 10 minutes (including us). I switched her to a quarter ounce jig and shiner and I went with the same jig and rainbow dace. We immediately had a double. For the next half hour we never got a jig to hit the bottom of the lake because we had a bite on every drop before the jig got all the way down. In the time that we boated 8 fish no other boat in sight had more than 4.

Of course it doesn't work every time, but it's worth a try (especially early in the season and again late in the open water season). And it sure is a blast when it does work. I think I can feel the bite and set the hook sooner with a jig (rather than waiting to "feed it to 'em" with a rig) thereby reducing the chance of a hook down in the gullet. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against rigs when they are working better than anything else. And if I do hook one deep with a rig, I cut the line inside the fishes mouth and donate the hook to fish's (hopefully) survival.

www.gemfishing.org

[Guest]

I read this on another site and want to use the thought here. If the Chippewa want compensation for a plan that did not work out well so far , how about we get compensation for all the eggs that the spawning fish they speared and netted could have produced?
The biggest problem I see with the published numbers of harvested fish and hooking mortality fish , is that they are projected from computer models , not an actual count. There is no way an accurate count can be taken so it is left up to educated guesses.
Dino

[huskminn]

WARNING: YOU MAY BE BORED TO DEATH WHILE READING THIS POST.

I've been thinking about the DNR's hooking mortality numbers, too.

Using very rudimentary numbers and assuming a whole lot, I've come up with the following stats. Granted, I'm assuming a lot, but I tried to play it conservatively.

Let me say that I thought I could show that the DNR numbers were way off when I started this excercise.........

237,000 lbs of dead fish due to the hooking mortality. Say they average 3 lbs. each. So that gives us 79,000 fish that have died through the end of July. Let's call it 80,000 for the sake of argument.

We've had 12 weekends and 58 weekdays. Let's say 60 weekdays for round numbers.

I'm estimating that 60% of the take has occured on weekends and 40% has occured over the weekdays. This is a big assumption, but I am just guessing that the vast majority of the pressure comes on the weekends.

I'm also assuming an 8 hour fishing day as the average. Some start early and leave in the afternoon, some start in the afternoon and fish well after dark, some fish all day and into the night. Launches usually get at least two 4 hour trips in on each weekend day, as well. As far as the weekdays, the same thing goes.......and I assume that you have a decent local population putting in a lot of evening hour pressure on the lake.

With all that in mind, 48,000 fish died on weekends and 32,000 fish died during the week. With 192 angling hours for each weekend day (12x2x8), that's 250 dead fish per hour on weekends. With 480 angling hours for weekdays (60x8), that's 67 dead fish per hour on weekends.

So, by the DNR's own estimates, 162,000 lbs of fish have been kept through the end of July. Because the fish have been small (14-16) and a few over 28" come into the mix, I'll estimate the average weight of kept fish as 1.5 lbs. The kept number would then be 108,000 fish. I've heard many numbers for keep percentage (number of fish kept vs. number caught), but I'm going with 10%, my own experience.

By those numbers, the DNR estimates nearly 1.1 million fish have been caught. My own estimates (see above) say that 80,000 fish have died due to hooking mortality. That's 7.3% of all fish caught.

That means the DNR believes one out of every 13.5 fish caught dies from the stress or injuries experienced. I don't know how I feel about that....I suppose it's possible.

So, using my own estimates, 250 dead fish per hour (7.3% of take) means that means roughly 3,400 fish were CAUGHT per hour on weekends and 920 fish CAUGHT per hour during the week.

If you're not yet asleep.......what does all this mean? Whether or not the DNR's numbers are accurate all depends on how many anglers are on the lake at any given time.

Do you think on an average weekend day, there are 3,400 boats on Mille Lacs averaging a catch rate of one fish per hour? What about 1,700 boats averaging two fish per hour? During the hot bite, 16 fish over an eight our period was very possible. Some people caught none.....some caught 40.

Weekday numbers would be 920 boats averaging a CATCH of one fish per hour or 460 boats averaging a CATCH of two fish per hour.

Keep in mind that my catch per boat estimates has to include launches.

With nine public accesses and how many resorts with landings (50??) and how many cabins on the lake with boats, it does seem feasible to me that 1700 boats could be on the lake on a weekend day, especially during the hot bite. That would be an average of 25 boats per GPS point listed on the Walleye Whiffer map.

Even if the DNR's estimates on hooking mortality are inflated by 25%, that comes to 1 out of 16.5 caught fish dead from hooking mortality. 1700 boats averaging 2.5 fish per hour (20 fish in an outing) would cover that inflated number.

Unfortunately, the DNR's numbers may be closer to reality than I would have liked to believe.

I fished Mille Lacs four times through the end of July, with a total of roughly 45 hours on the water. My boat's total catch was about 70 fish. That's 1.56 fish per hour (I never did get into the great, hot bite this year. No 50 fish days. The biggest day was 32 fish.)

I am an average walleye fisherman, at best. Perhaps my experiences on Mille Lacs have been average. If so, the DNR numbers are high, but not by much. If everyone had the experience I had on Mille Lacs, and assume the DNR inflated the kill rate by 25%, sport anglers would have still killed 200,000 pounds of fish through the end of July.

With the slot fish harvest included, we are still already over our allotted take for the whole year (350,000 lbs).

I'm sure you all think I'm crazy for going through this exercise, but I was curious and worked out the numbers for myself....though I might share the information.

Unfortunately, I think the DNR is more right than wrong. And those of you who have read my previous posts on this whole issue realize that this is a tough thing for me to admit.

[avrg.joe]

Huskiman,
Wow, I've read shorter novels . All kidding aside, I just don't beieve that 10-15% of all fish released before the heat set in died. Maybe, and I say MAYBE in the 95-100 degree heat. All fish I released prior to the heat shot to the bottom like they were shot out of a canon. I fished a little bit in the heat in the deep water of the flats with very good results. These fish were slightly more lathargic.
79,000 fish dead? Most dying in 2-3 weeks? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

GOOD LUCK!!

[Guest]

I'm a bit of a skeptic on the whole Mille Lacs issue. I personally think the DNR has their heads so FAR up their you know what.... that it could take years before they see the light. I think the DNR and the bands numbers on a "safe" harvest level are set ridiculously low, and that Mille Lacs can support the harvest of a few hundred thousand more pounds of fish. It has in the past, and it certainly can now.

Sportsmen and sportswomen..... STOP patronizing casino's. The bands position has got everything to do with money, and nothing/very little to do with the fish or deer. This is an attempt on the bands part to shut down resorts and businesses other than their own. Curt Kalk the bands head of wildlife has pretty much came out and said he doesn't like resorts in his interviews.

Hope it gets better..... but I'm not holding my breath.

Good Luck,
Rusty

[Guest]

Rusty, I like yer thiking. But unfortunately, there are too many seasoned citizens on oxygen tanks, and fixed incomes that are far to willing to support them. But thats another topic. What to do? I was going to purchase a 12x24 fish house this fall to put on the lake..........but may have to reconsider. What other lakes can handle big houses like this? Following the money trail can be easy. Maybe a $200 a year special License for the big lake..................I can see this being a possibility, once they think of this idea. Or a statewide "Walleye" stamp? Monies to go the poor unfortunate Casino tribes. For now I say we just pay em off.

[cwmn]

Stay away from the casinos AND Eddy's resort, remeber the band owns Eddy's now.

[Guest]

Can we start a list of other ML-Band-owned businesses? (just so we all know, just in case we want to take our business elsewhere).

Okay most of us have said we'll never go to the Casino at Vineland. Remember the one in Hinkley is owned by the same band, so stay outta there too.

1. Obviously Eddy's now, what a shame one of the premier fishing resorts on the lake.
2. How about the Conoco between Onamia and Eddy's? The name of the place is MLB Conoco! Watta ya spose that stands for? Let's see . . . could it be . . . hmmm . . . MILLE LACS BAND Conoco???
I used to stop there occasionally if I was staying at Kathio and needed to make a run for boat gas etc., but no more. Now I make the drive to the Onamia Holiday. Please tell me that Holiday isn't owned by the band too.

I'm really bummed that the premier resort just north of Onamia got bought by the band, because I stayed there occasionally and loved the place but I won't go there now. And I won't stay at the premier resort just north of Isle since the owner called me and lots of my buddies "meat hogs" right there in the newspaper. What's left for top tier accomodations, go stay with the golfers at Izaty's? Ya I'll stay anywhere just to get a chance to fish (I'm usually in a tent at Kathio). And the when the wife and kids are with any resort is usually fine, but sometimes it's nice to treat them to a place with an indoor pool.

[Borch]

What's up with this? I didn't see that huge rebate check from the band when we were well below our allotment last season.

This is gonna get bad by the time it's done. I see the makings of a state run casino in say...Milaca? or the Northern metro near 169 or I35.

No... That would make too much sense I guess.

[Guest]

State "owned" casino...I really doubt it, they'd go broke just trying to keep up with the indians' casinos. But then, they could always raise taxes to offset the losses!
I still say..."Open it up to liberalized fishing"! Let's take what we can before the indians own it all!

[This message has been edited by HtchEyeCatcher (edited 08-20-2002).]

[Borch]

I suppose that they could contract with someone who has a proven track record to get it up and running. Say like the M.L.B. did. But you're probably right. Even they'd find a way to mess that one up.

[Guest]

A state run/owned casino is a GREAT idea.... unfortunately there are too many politicians lining their pockets with money from the indians to allow this to pass.

I voted for Jesse, and thought he was doing OK at first. In the end I was disappointed. But Jesse always wanted a state run casino, unfortunately, our other elected officials wouldn't allow it. Hopefully, it can become a reality.

A state run casino in a good location could compete with indian run casino's without a problem.

Good Luck,
Rusty

[Guest]

Huskminn....

I finally disagree with you on something

I believe a state run casino is a good idea for several reasons.

1.) Gambling is not illegal in Minnesota, Indians have numerous casino's and do quite well with them. In Minnesota it's only illegal to have a casino if you're a non-indian. Why should one group of people be allowed to have a monopoly on a HUGE market? (and state reps help them along.)

2.) State run casino's can create GREAT revenue, and pay for pet projects, such as light rail, etc.... that way the state doesn't feel the need to raise taxes so often.

3.) The ideal place for a casino certainly isn't in the Mille Lacs area, there are 10 times the people in the metro, and only one close by casino, Mystic Lake which is Indian run, and by the way makes TONS of money.

It has nothing to do with contempt for Indians and socking it to them. It has to do with ridiculous practices, and receiving special priviledges because of your race. Let's turn the tables. Let's say only White people are allowed to run casino's in Minnesota. Think anyone would have a problem with that??? Then tell me what's the difference with the way the current scheme is operating. I can't afford to continue paying for things that my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather did. And to suggest that it's reasonable that I do is ridiculous.

You also say that the MLB is taking care of their own..... in what way. The people on top are making the money, not the regular band member.

If it's not about money, then why do they like it so much, and why are they so quick to ask for it???

Good Luck,
Rusty

[Borch]

I don't have any issues with the members of the Mille lacs band. What I do have a problem with is the agenda of their current political leadership. As well as the system that allows this whole mess to go on.

Why do you suppose that all the decision in regards to to this case have been upheld? Even though the rights of these treaties have been purchased more than once.

It's called money!

The bands with the succesful casinos are MAJOR contributors to state and federal politicians. That is why it is so unlikely(although it might make sense)that there will ever be a non-indian run casino in MN.

What further concerns be in the purchasing of land and other property and taking it out of the tax state tax pot. That means that the more this happens the more each of us needs to add to the pot to make up the difference. For now the band has decided against registing their new land purchases in this way(for the most part). But it has been common practice.

You see as mad as I am about this situation. I'm even more upset with the morons that set up the system that allows them to do what they are doing legally. Granting them sovernty and rights as U.S. citizens. They get the best of both worlds.

How's that for shooting ourselves in the foot?

Huskminn,

At least to me it doesn't matter who they are. You better beleive I'm not happy with the Hollywood types for more reasons that I can even begin to discuss here. It's not who is doing this. But rather what and how they are doing it.

[huskminn]

Rusty,

If you've never disagreed with me until now, there's something wrong with you, trust me.

I don't understand the entire situation with the sovereignty that was granted to reservations when the reservations were created. I do know that different reservations have relinquished their sovereignty to varying degrees over time. I think I have heard that the Red Lake Band still has more sovereignty than other bands in MN, becuase they simply haven't given it up.

Anyway, the Indians are allowed to have casinos because of their sovereignty. They can do a lot of things because of that. Set their own game laws and seasons, have their own law enforcement and justice system, etc. etc. There is no law stopping the WHITE man from building a casino...it just has to be on a reservation, which some of them are.

The reason why the state of MN doesn't allow casinos off of reservations is because the majority of MN citizens don't want them. Yes, it is talked about every year, but every year, there isn't enough support to change the law. We could debate the aspects of gambling and its affect on society in general (or certain sectors within), but that is a different argument.

If you beleive the best place for a casino would be in the Metro area (and I agree), then how is building a state casino going to affect the fishing on Mille Lacs? Or did you never mean to relate the two things?

Initally I would have agreed that the casinos/bands give large contributions to politicians........read through some of the thread in the Outdoor Political Power forum. The numbers indicate that not that much money is given to anyone who has any real influence. At least not in Minnesota.

You know, I don't think anyone should be granted special priveledges above and beyond what is already provided for every individual in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. But, this Mille Lacs situation is more than special priveledge.

The Feds signed a Treaty, broke it, maybe even paid a sum to make amends, but, in the end the Gov't was held to its original agreement. Should you and I be paying for that right now? Well, unfortunately, the boneheads in our Federal Gov't didn't do such a good job in keeping to their agreements. Just because something is old doesn't mean that you and I shouldn't be obligated to share some of the burden. Ever hear of the Monroe Doctrine? That's a pretty old edict, but Americans will be paying for it forever.

Borch, I don't know enough about property law vis-a-vis Indians, but I have been under the impression that property taxes are still due on off-reservation land. The income tax situation is more tribe-member related. FICA, unemployment taxes......I don't know.

Yes, we shot ourselves in the foot hundreds of years ago. And we (gov't) has continued to screw things up on almost every reservation in the country. Politics and corruption have absolutely devistated native peoples. The federal gov't should be absolutely ashamed of itself for how they have continuously botched indian affairs.

Anyway, I still don't think it is about money. Money is the only thing that the MLB knows it can get from the DNR. That is the only thing that everyone (including us!!) is willing to give to them. All this talk of a special Mille Lacs permit or just buying out the band's keep allotment.

The bands are not stupid......they take money at every opportunity, but that isn't really what they want. That is why I contend that it isn't really about the money. It's about legally regaining land and power.

Even though we don't like it, Borch, it is perfectly legal and anyone in the country can waltz in here and do it.

[Guest]

Ya, it's about large amounts of money, large amounts of power and large amounts of land. As I said on another thread, Ain't it just too coincidental how all three are usually intimately intertwined?

As far as directly competing with the casino's or boycotting band-owned businesses; When the money generated is being used in direct conflict to my interests, then I'll do whatever I can legally do to help cut off that money supply.

[mistermom]

Money is what makes the whole thing go round. Running for state rep or even senate is not a huge costly thing. The casinos/gambling industry spent $226,000 in the '99-2000 cycle and $296,000 in the '95-96 cycle in the state of MN (source: opensecrets.org). $500 to the right candidates here and there are healthy contributions and if you got over $200,000 to play with you can buy a lot of good will.

And good luck getting the media to say "boo". How much advertising revenue do you suppose newspapers, TV, radio, and magazines in the state make from the "Life is Grand" folks? This battle has to be fought by following the money trail and threatening the reps and senators with job loss if they won't listen to their constituents. A couple of angry e-mails isn't gonna get anybody's attention. A couple
of hundred or thousand might.

The state does'nt have to turn 169 and I-35 into the Vegas strip. The state only has to make it a real threat to actually have some bargaining power. Which, if you haven't noticed, they don't have any. Good luck.

mistermom

[huskminn]

Why is a state-run casino a GREAT idea? What purpose would it serve?

The only reason why some state politicians want their own casino is because it irks them that they can't tax the Indian casino revenues. The state believes it has a right to everyone's money. The state just wants to get its grubby, innefficient hands on more money.

You know, gambling isn't such a good thing. There is a reason why it is not legal in most states....it's not overly beneficial to the society.

As soon as some interest group finds out the state won't give them the money for their project, they come up with the grand idea that a state-run casino could pay for the project. Stadiums, light rail, whatever.

So why build a state casino near Mille Lacs? Just to compete with the Indians? And how, exactly, would that change the Treaty issue on Mille Lacs? To give the casino goer a non-Indian choice in gambling? Would you like the state to start buying resorts and gas stations around Mille Lacs...will that solve the mortality rate issues on Mille Lacs?

Or is there just a general feeling of contempt for Indians and some of you will take every opportunity to sock it to them? Take away their casino revenues.....take away their right to invest in private enterprise....what else would you like to take away?

They've got a lot of money that allows them to buy land, resorts and other businesses. They have a political agenda. They seek power in the American political system. They protect their own.

Hmmn....for a second there, I thought I was describing rich, white people from Hollywood who have spent the last 15 years buying up huge tracts of land in the Rocky Mountain states, increasing the tax bills of regular folk, removing land and water from sportsman access and increasing property values so much that, if a rancher wanted to buy a ranch, he could never afford one because Barbara Streisand paid twice the market value for the ranch next door.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why there is so much animosity towards the Mille Lacs Band.

What is it, exactly, that they have done that has hurt all of us so badly? And don't try to tell me that they've ruined fishing on Mille Lacs.....they took 53,000# of fish this year......how many did "we" take?

[Borch]

As far as the tax rolls are concern the land purchase just needs to be process through the buruea of indian affairs as reservation land and it is no longer taxable. I'm too busy to track down the exact info but it's there for anyone who feels like digging.

As far as anyone coming in here and doing it. Although I believe that it is possible for anyone to do it. Given the cards that the band hold right now(yes, I remember who dealt them those cards). They are the only one who has the power and control to do it in this manner "Legally". By continueing to put the squeeze on the the allowable harvest. This then put an economic squeeze on the region who relies on sportsmen for revenue.

Nothing but a strong arm take over waiting to happen.

Throw in a monopoly on the casino gambling in the midwest.

I'm well aware of the effects of gambling. Those who continue to play alway end up losing in the long run. The laws of probability are not in their favor. Prior to the casino I could count the number of pawn shops in the Mille Lacs area without raising a finger. Business's have closed, people have lost their life savings. But unfortunately this happens, the state then has the expense of tryng to deal with this. But receive none of the gains.

I just wish that there was a way to educate the public at large as to the problems the casinos have caused. Both economic and social. But no one what to sell that advertising(other that the occassional public service annoucement against gambing in general)because they would potentially be taking money(from the casinos)out of their own pockets.

Kinda makes me think I'm watching the Godfather playing a game of monopoly.