disgusting

[Guest]

To angry fishermen,
I cannot believe what some of you fishermen have for thoughts in your heads about the slot limits on Mille Lacs. The DNR is doing the right thing. They use the best methods possible for managing the lake. Fisheries biology is still somewhat a new science. Until some of you come up with a better way to estimate biomass in a lake, you should shut up. As far as the management goes, many more factors come into play than just how many fish you selfish people can take home. Treaties, politics, LAWBREAKERS, recreational users, etc., all are factors. Wildlife and fisheries management in not just management of fish and wildlife. It is people management also. You cannot compare Mille Lacs to 30 years ago. Many more people use the lake today, and they are much more successful. Guys that do not follow the regulations only make the managament of the lake more difficult. I hope some of you old farts can stop thinking about yourselves and think about what the lake will be like for your grandchildren.

[Guest]

The natives have full rights to commerical net on Mille Lacs. How do you explian that to your grandchildren. The slot is to insure the natives get what the supreme court gave them. Dont you think this is about egual rights?

[Ybone]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that commercial netting wasn't allowed. Only for personal use. It may not be fair but the Supreme Court decision makes slots or some other unpopular method necessary. I think it would be worse if the season had to be closed when the sportsman harvest quota was reached which probably would be about now comsidering how good the walleyes have bit this summer.

[Guest]

D-man,
I think you are misinformed. The slot is not just to ensure the natives get their quota of fish. It is also to prevent over harvesting large fish. With the pressure that Mille Lacs is getting, The fishermen would crop the fish down to 12-13 inchers really fast( most fishermen don't keep walleyes smaller than this). Why would it be hard to explain the treaty rights the natives have? Do you not understand why they have those rights?

[Guest]

As an active board member for PERM serving under Joe Karpen for 12 years i know this topic inside and out. The slot is to insure the natives get thier quota. The supreme court holds the DNR responsible that the natives get the quota. If we the sportsmen go over the projected quota and the natives were unable to reach thier annual quota the supreme court would hold the DNR responsible and they would face severe fines and penalties. And yes the natives have full power to commercial net on the lake. And as far as the treaty goes and what it means, it means the natives can take,take,take and not return anything to the resource. You wanna talk about old farts complaining, whats going to happend to these business's if the lake shuts down? What would happen to your famliy if you had no income. The banks dont want to hear your story, they want thier payment on time....

[This message has been edited by D-man (edited 07-12-2001).]

[Rick]

I understand why they have those rights. It's because the Supreme Court voted 5-4 that they had those rights.

It may be difficult to change, but it is by no means absolute. Several scenarios are still possible.

The Chippewa can still say, hey, we just want to have the same rights as everyone else, no more no less. We'll abide by the same laws that non-Chippewa people have.

The Legislative and Executive branches of our governement can change it.

A new challenge could be found to what the Chippewa currently are doing and the Judicial branch could change it.

The more folks involved, the more likely the right stone will be turned over.

Until then, we all live with it. It's what the law says is fair right now.

Oh yes, and Mille Lacs is on fire right now. Lots of walleyes are being boated. I thank those involved in keeping Mille Lacs Lake the awesome Walleye Factory it is!!!

[Guest]

Granted I do not know all the details abou ttreaties ect.. but as far as I am concerned it seems to be a double standard. I think the slots are just fine and truely enjoy the awsume fishery Mille Lacs is and hope it stays that way but I think that the tribes and any other American Idian should be under the same laws that any other American citizen has to obey including fishing, taxes ect... and throw away all those 150 year old treaties that should not apply in the 21st century. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Dan97]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the treaty of 1837(?) weren't ALL the rights the "native americans" had to the ceeded territories bought for something like 18 million dollars? So if this is true, wouldn't the "native americans" now have their cake and be able to eat it as well? Also being "native americans", key word being AMERICANS, why don't all the laws that govern the rest of us apply to them?

Just being curious.......Dan

BTW... Is there anyplace I can read the ACTUAL treaty? Not some copy doctored by either side, but the original?

[Guest]

Another point to consider is Don Wedl is leaving as chief conservationist for the tribe. They get the wrong person to fill that position and there my be some real problems..

[Borch]

fish-n-hunt,

sounds like you have an ax to grind. But you are the one that is misinformed on the slot for the past 3 years. The original slot of one over 20" was for managing the fishery for quality. It remained that way until the treaty decision. Since then the sole purpose of the slot has been to spread out the harvest of the pounds of fish allowed following the federal courts decision. It has nothing to do with maintaining a healthy diverse fishery. In fact by shinking the slot specific year classes have and will continue to be hammered. Short term this allows for lots of big fish but in the long term as these larger fish die off there will be more than normal bad year classes, not because of a bad spawn but rather over harvest due to the slot. No, I'm not a biologist(but I play one on TV ). But just think about it and it all makes sense. Don't go blaming the SELFISH fishermen/women. They have helped to make this lake what it is. A lot of voluntary release of fish over 20" has been done when they could have kept one under the old slot but most didn't. Don't make those who enjoy a few meals of walleye bad guys either. They spend an enormous amount of money for those fish, they have a right to enjoy the fruit of their labors. But they most definitely need to follow the law. I will report anyone who doesn't.

Play nice and fish hard!

[This message has been edited by Borch (edited 07-12-2001).]

[Guest]

Borch,You're right about the early slot of "One over 20". This slot was based on biology and created to protect the fishery.

In my opinion the current slot is a child of bio-tics. (1/3 biology, 1/3 federal politics and 1/3 state complacency) Hammering a single year class for the entire harvest is politics not biology.

Rick is correct. We must, as a group, and individually contact our federal and state senators and representatives. They need to take our message to the executive branch. The current slot is damaging the area economics by reducing tourism dollars being spent in the area. The supreme court ruled the treaty is still enforceable. This includes the "Pleasure of the President" clause. A well crafted ruling from GWB would end this thing tomorrow.

I think the current slot is hurting the entire area. I drove by the casino Saturday Night. The parking lot was not very full. I believe the Mille Lacs Band's business is off because there are fewer sport fisherman around.

Can any one confirm this observation? If the tribe is losing business because of the slot they may be more interested in casino profits than fishing.

[Guest]

Its sad to see so many boats parked at the casino

[waterfowler]

That is what I don't understand, how come there are any boats at the Casino? If we truely want to change how things are run up there, then make the Casino feel the pinch as much as the local resorts are. I'm sure this would put them in a better mood for negotiating. I know this is a very simplistic view, but does it not merit some discussion??

[uffdapete]

I think you're on the right track to boycott the Casinos and encourage other sportsman to do the same. Fishing isn't the only sport affected.

The issue of reversing treaty rights that are based on the way things were 165 years ago would gain a lot more ground if we would all spend the time and energy flooding Washington with e-mails, letters, phone calls, etc. They will listen if enough people contact them. The changes may not happen in our lifetimes, but our grandchildren may thank us for impacting their future.

I've never fished Mille Lacs. But that doesn't mean I have no interest in the fishery. Many of us don't fish Wisconsin either, but hopefully we're still concerned about the same issues they face there.

To use energy complaining about it here won't change anything unless it brings about a concerted effort to demand changes in Washington.

[Jim W]

I have never fished Mille lacs!!! JA SAY TREE and I were discussing the lake! I'll speak for myself! I love fishing, especially for walleye. If/WHEN I get to fish Mille Lacs I'll probably catch and release everything! Just to have the opportunity to catch a decent average sized catch would be well worth it to me!!!
SOunds like a lot of people taking ownership in something they do not own!! I sure hope I can take my son walleye fishing on Mille Lacs someday!!!!! Jim W

[huskminn]

A comment for Troller:

Be careful what you wish for. Just because the treaties are old and may not "apply in the 21st century", doesn't necessarily mean that they should be totally disregarded.

The Constitution is older than the 1837 treaty.....should that be disregarded as well, or maybe just "updated" a little to match our wonderful 21st Century whims and desires?

General Comments:

The reality of the situation with reservations being nearly sovereign nations will not change. No politician will ever touch that one.....especially since Daschle is now Senate Majority Leader. He's in like Flynn with the native american lobby, always has been, gets those groups tremendous amounts of federal money every year and in turn gets their undying support.

So, that leaves us all with issues like Mille Lacs coming to the forefront. Rick is correct. This issue is not over by any means. The final decision has not yet been made and there are options ahead of us.

With organization, professionalism, money and sound efforts at lobbying, things can be changed. The game is POLITICS. It's got little to do with biology, little to do with what's best for the local economy and little to do with you and me and what we think is best.

The DNR is in a bad spot and it's quite obvious that they want nothing to do with this problem. That's why we've heard nothing from Garber and nothing from Ventura. For a Minnesota politician, this is a lose-lose situation. They've got Washington holding their leash, they've got the Mille Lacs economy teetering, they've got the Native American lobby poised to attack if necessary. It is easiest for them to wait and see what happens.

So, the best thing to do is force everyone's hand. However, that is not the easiest thing to do. First of all, the issue needs to become bigger than it really is. It needs to sprout legs of its own. It needs national media attention.......BUT!!, it needs the right kind of attention. Again, we must be careful what we wish for.

How on earth do you think PETA gets the national media coverage that they do for doing what many view to be absolutely ridiculous and un-newsworthy things? They have a machine.....they are tied to Washington....they have very talented, well polished PR professionals heading their efforts..they know how to play the GAME...and they have the MONEY to do it.

Believe it or not, this is not a Minnesota issue. Sure, it really only affects people who live in MN....resort owners, restaraunt owners, guides, anglers, gas stations, bait shops, Indians, Casinos, grocery stores..the list goes on. BUT, this will not be resolved in our state. It will be resolved in Washington.

The Minnesota DNR is trying to QUIETLY go about its business of abiding by the Supreme Court ruling. As far as they are concerned, the BIOLOGICAL management of the walleye population in Mille Lacs is out of their hands. They're not going to stick their head out of the fox hole unless there's a fire under their butts. The Indians have no reason to change what they are doing.....they've got the Supreme Court on their side for now. So, that leaves all the rest of us.

I can almost guarantee you that the Spotted Owl will come out on top. The question is, which side will be the most successful in painting themselves as the Spotted Owl? Which side will be the most organized, will have the most convincing press conferences, will have the best PR machine?

It's really very sad.......I sit back and think about this and, for me, I'd just like to be able to keep 2 or 3 walleyes to have a meal. I'm sure many of you feel the same way. But, that doesn't have much to do with what's really going on.

Rick, as always thanks for giving me the time and space to rattle on and on and on.

[Guest]

You too can keep and eat fish on Mille Lacs!
See my earlier post below. Got back from a week plus vacation. Had good fishing most days. Kept what I wanted to eat for 3 meals for the week, never measured a one! Released the rest. Very relaxing. Don't abuse the resource, don't call attention to yourself, have a good hiding place. Didn't get checked while any shorts/longs on board this week, was checked earlier in season however. Above all, don't abide by this BS.

[Guest]

fishingman .. you got that right...

[Guest]

[Deleted First Sentence, Sorry, no personal attacks.]

Could someone please post the email addresses of our fine politician's in Washington again...
Thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-13-2001).]

[Beckman]

Congratulations[deleted, sorry no name calling allowed]! I'm glad you're proud of yourself. Tell us all more about the finer points of poaching, I'm sure we all want to learn.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-13-2001).]

[waterfowler]

Let's not let this discussion go awry here. We've got some good old fashioned banter going on. I see a lot good ideas from many people on the board, let's not stoop to name calling and other childish ways.

Fishingman,
I do hope you reconsider posting your exploits when you aren't abiding by the law. That is a very touchy subject among many of us. Please don't take this wrong, but we really don't need that type of input. You can choose to do whatever you want, but many of us here will not hesitate to turn you in if we see you breaking the law.

I for one don't want to hear about it. It just stirs the pot and leads us down a road that turns into nothing but childish games. The most important reason that I would rather you didn't post this info on this site, I don't care to be associated with someone who is blatantly and knowingly breaking the law. Like mom always said, if your with someone and they are doing something you know is wrong, leave and make sure you are seen elsewhere. I only speak for myself, but I'm willing to bet many of us here don't care to be associated with anyone who is making the choice you did.

I would really like to continue to hear more opinions on solutions that are creative and resourceful on this issue. I think Huskminn made some very valid points. The more info we can put together in a public forum like this the better chance we have a turning the heads of our politicians. I know anytime I've written mine, I often use info I've gained from others. I look forward to hearing from others on this. I know it has gotten beaten around many times, but if we can keep an open mind I'm betting we would all be amazed what we can accomplish together.

Waterfowler

[Guest]

Let me throw in the mix of discussion here, and I am sure some of you have already heard about this,there is a Minnesota legislator from that area that is going to, or already has talked to the White House about this treaty issue. I'm sorry that I can't remember her-the legislator-name,and I don't live in her district. Her plan is to get GW to do something about changing the treaty according to his right with executive powers held by the President. The Supreme Court made commentary when they held the hearing on this pertaining to the treaty itself being changed, or interpreted differently according to the order of the President.So before we all go goofy throwing proverbial stones again for the 100th time, let's watch this play out, and hope for a good outcome.

[Rick]

Hi Fishingman,
please do not post anything about breaking fishing laws. I know your sentence above does not prove that you broke any laws.

Civil disobedience should be a measure of last resort. I am aware Ghandi and Martin Luther King did it and they were effective with it.

However, there are things happenning behind the scenes. The best thing folks can do right now is contact their federal Government representatives and voice your opinion.

Being cool headed and logical is the best way to make a point with them.

I have heard GWB is likely on our side in this issue. Contact him and urge those in other states with similar issues to do the same.

[Guest]

I just can't help chiming in even though I don't fish Mille Lacs (must have too much time on my hands).

Let me ask all of the self-proclaimed slot violators a question. Who do you think is going to win a political battle, the long-suffering American Indian (or that's how they portray themselves politically) or red-neck, law-breaking fisherman? Don't break the law. It only gives the opposition more ammo.

Interesting comparison Rick. PETA would love to hear that you're comparing the rights of fisherman to the rights of the oppressed humans of the world.

[Rick]

Bornoffice,
Please don't put words in my mouth.

Those were spiritual leaders as well as human rights leaders. I don't think Fishingman qualifies for that on this board, do you?

Also, answer this question, do non-Chippewa have the same rights(equal) as the Chippewa do with respect to natural resources in all of Minnesota?

I'm really not sure what PETA has to do with it anyway, explain that one please?

[Guest]

Many of you are missing the point here.
The idea in life and outdoor pursuits should be to conserve the resource and do what is right. Newsflash for some of you-what the DNR says is NOT always right. I’m not a hot-headed redneck, in fact, I try to attract as little attention as possible when I’m out fishing. Also, too bad if some wish I wouldn’t post anything about breaking the law. Quite frankly, I’m more disgusted with people who blindly follow whatever political agenda the DNR or government happens to be promoting at the moment, and worse, it's sickening when they’d rather silence those with diverse opinions rather than allow them to be heard. What country are you guys from? Did you ever study US history? Wake up! My point is simply this, I’m not willing to let the DNR, by it’s gutless attitude and their politics-of-the-day walleye data, ruin my fishing experience. I know that I’m not damaging the resource, because I and thousands of others have spent time fishing the lake, and know it goes against all reason and common sense to believe that the resource is depleted and requires such severe restrictions. The only “damage” I could do is to my own pocket book if I get caught, but that's unlikely. All of you law-abiding DNR butt kissers can kiss mine, as you continue to fish Mille Lacs and catch 20 or 30 fish a day that you release, including several at or approaching trophy size. I’ll go out and catch 2-3 fish to eat, and quit. I don’t keep ‘em over 20 inches so I might have release one or two sometimes.
Now, if you think you’re a conservationist and I’m a poacher because you follow the law,
You’re NUTS! You know you’re killing more big fish everyday you go out than I am.
The only thing you’ve done is followed a stupid law, made by a politically motivated agency, and I’m not buying all the BS you’re spewing out. Use common sense and look at who’s doing what to the resource.

[Guest]

Rick,

You misunderstood. I was just kidding or vaguely attempting to be ironic. There obviously is no comparison between human rights and fisherman's rights. Hence the PETA obviously would not see the comparison since they really think us fisherman are the bottom rung of the human race. That's obviously not true. However, law breakers will only get fisherman classified as the bottom rung by more and more groups outside of the world of fishing. Does that clarify my comments somewhat?

Do non-Chippewa and Chippewa citizens have the same rights when it comes to fish and game? Well, no. I guess that's the whole point of this discussion. I just think that people intentionally breaking the law will get us nowhere when it comes to trying to regain equal footing on Mille Lacs and other Treaty lakes. Law-breakers are just giving the bad guys more ammo against us.

We're on the same page, I believe. I'll refrain from humor from here on out when it comes to these sensitive topics.

[Guest]

Yep. We're definitely on the same page.

[Jim W]

fishingman,

I didn't have time to read all of the posts, so If you answered this question please disregard ok?!
If your opting to not abide by written law, claiming we or most shouldn't just sit back and let "higher" authority dictate our rights, What have you personally done to make change in legislation or opinion other than reacting to it?
If you have some good ideas on how to do this, I'm sure it would be more effective sharing tactics on how to change "governmental control" than getting on forum with a "ton" of strong minded(passionate towards conservation) individuals, getting on their bad side(not that you care if you get on their bad side).

I personally recommend that since you are sooooo passionate about this subject, if tactfully approached, you could/should and can make change!! Heck Hitler got a lot of people believing in his interestingly bizzare ideologies!!!!(I'm not comparing ideologies)
Jim W

[This message has been edited by Jim W (edited 07-16-2001).]

[Guest]

The post by Jim W covers it well, but the bottom line, fishingman, is a poacher is a poacher,a criminal is a criminal,black is black,white is white, and there are no shades of grey when it comes down to obeying the law.You either do, or don't. You don't have to justify it to me or anyone else here, but don't be a big crybaby when you get busted. As the saying goes," If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." I can't stand poachers, and will turn them in in a heartbeat. So take that as you will.You can't say you weren't warned.