Ivory Lab female

[Kodiak]

I am going to be purchasing a ivory lab, i want the almost white coat. I have had yellow and black labs in the past and i want to get a ivory one this time. Do you know any good sources to get a female pup, most likely looking to purchase in march. garunteed hips and eyes.

Thank you

[Bushwacker]

I bought a great little white lab in November from Tony Wenzel in Little Falls, MN. It has great bloodlines including Rik's Risky Raider. My pup at 2 months is already pointing birds in the yard and casting on retrieves. I would highly recommend Tony and his labs. His dam Kouba is pure white and has mostly pure white ivory labs. I really enjoy my pup and will definetly look to Tony for my next one. Twenty month written guarantee on eyes and hips and all health issues from the day you pick up the pup. Very stand up guy. Very reasonable prices. Email me at [email protected] for his contact info if you are interested.

[LABS4ME]

Being there is know "true" classification as Ivory Lab, finding one will simply be a matter of contacting breeders who have yellow pups available and see if they have any lighter colored pups in the litter. As a lot of breeders (I won't use the term "backyard") try to get an edge on selling pups, and they use "made up" colors such as ivory, fox red, white etc. etc. The AKC establishes there are 3 colors, Blk, yellow, choc. thats it. "Ivory" is just a light colored yellow just as Blondes can vary from platnum to dishwater. One problem you may run into is if you find a litter you like and put a deposit down to hold a pup, and none of them are light enough for you, you now have to try to get your deposit back and start your search over. Also, not all light colored pups stay light, I've seen them darken up several shades to the point they would be considered your average yellow color. Also if you duck hunt, the darker shades blend in better with cover and show less mud on their coats. This more for the best gal of the house than us guys, but they really don't want "their" dogs looking messy. With all that being said, I wouldn't put to much emphasis on the color and reject what otherwise is a breeding that you'd want a pup from. Sometimes show people want a specific color du jour, as that is "HOT" in the ring at that time giving them the edge over other dogs, but for hunting it has no basis.

Good Luck in your search...

Ken

[FISHER ED]

Great post Labs. A year ago I was also looking for an Ivory lab. After seeing many fine pups that would fit my "ivory" condition, I also saw a lot of older dogs that started out ivory that had turned more yellow with age. This yellowing wasn't consistant through the entire coat either. Some was more evident in the tail, others in the face and ears and some in back.
Long story short, I went with my second color, Chocolate, to aviod some of the darkening. Granted, I'm sure my dog will change some color with age but it shouldn't be as evident with the darker coat to begin with.
Kodiak, good luck with your decision and just remember to get what pleases you and not everyone else.

[Ruttin' Buck]

Hey LABS4ME, after reading a few of your posts on dogs, particularly labs, it seems you're a bit abrasive to the 'backyard breeders'. A bad experience or a bad pup rub you the wrong way?

I'll be the first to admit I'm no pro breeding kennel but I have to admit that you've almost made me feel guilty for raising a litter of pups on my own.

I didn't do it to raise a few bucks. I did it because my dog has an awesome pedigree and the sire's is also reputable. Both dogs are 4 yrs old and very healthy and hunted very extensively. Not to mention, I like every guy in the swamp on opening day, know my dog kicks a**!

So yes, there is more 'work' in these dogs than your typical backyard housewife's dog who dumped a litter just for the kids to see. I had many people that were interested in having my dog bred after seeing her in action. Too bad she only had 1 female...she was gone when she came out!...now I already have orders for females for the next litter!

To get to my point, I have also listed one as and ivory and not to get a leg up on my competition so to speak, but so that guys like Kodiak don't have to call on every yellow in the paper to see if it's an ivory lab. Because, let's be honest, there is a big demand out there for the white ones despite there not being an official 'ivory lab'.

In some ways I almost feel like I have an advantage over the kennels with several litters to tend to. Each day, every pup gets at least 2 sessions of sit, stay, come with me. It's only 2-3 repetitions, but hey, they're starting to understand it already. Also, they are close to being litter box trained. How nice will it be for an owner to just move the box outside some day so the dog realizes...hey, I guess I go out here now.

How many kennels go this far? I just want to conclude with the fact that I don't want you to take offense to my rebute, just to realize that in my opinion, there are still a few good 'backyard breeders' out there....with ivory labs of course! ;-)

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: GREAT POST!!! I have wanted to post something like that for some time now. There is NO such thing as an "Ivory" lab. You have 3 choices, BLACK, CHOCOLATE or YELLOW. Most yellow puppies are always light and with age will sometimes get darker. When I picked out my brother in laws yellow he too wanted a light yellow. She was the lightest pup of the group. Look at her today and you would never quess she was as light as she once was. My little yellow was very light when I got her at 6 1/2 weeks old now she has dark tipped ears and a 3 inch strip down her back that has darkened some.
When I was researching for this puppy I talked to Mary Howley of candlewood kennels and she laughed at me when I told her I was interested in a lighter colored yellow. Her response was the same as yours LABS, "don't look at color, look at the pedigree".
The bottom line is this, eventually that yellow will turn a little different shade than what she is as a puppy.
GOOD LUCK

[duckbuster]

BUSHWACKER: If you only got a 20 month guarantee you better call your breeder back and ask for a 6-10 month extension! I don't think I have ever seen a guarantee less than 26 months. A dog's hips can't be certified until 24 months. A 20 month guarantee isn't going to do you much good at 24 months if your dogs hips come back poor.
Give him a call and ask, if nothing else to protect yourself down the road.
GOOD LUCK

[LABS4ME]

Buckblaster...no offense taken. I have big shoulders. If I was abrasive it wasn't meant to be, stern yes, mean no. If I offended you with my "backyard breeder" (for lack of a better term) statement, I apologize. I too can probably be classified as a "backyard breeder", as I in no way make a living off my dogs. The difference being I will always do my part in trying to breed clean pups.

All that said, refer back to the thread in pheasant hunting...I believe it was "hunting dog suggestion". I really don't think guys want to read that whole post over. It spells out my stance. "Pup rub me the wrong way"? Yep! I already bared my soul and posted that it was from my first breeding. I had cleared parents but not enough knowledge to understand how these traits are passed down generation to generation. It caused me to start my whole lines all over. No fun. why do I do it? To better the breed! It honestly is the only answer. You got a dog that kicks a$$ in the field...Not a good enough answer for a breeding. People act like it's a rarity for a lab to be an awsome hunter. Usually those breedings take place for the ego of the owner, we all feel we have one of the best dogs out there. In no way am I saying don't breed your dog, what I'm saying is clear that dog genetically before breeding. Check to see if the grandparents are also clear. Then do your breeding. You say you had a bunch of pups spoken for before they were born, I assume it's friends / relatives / hunting buddies. How are you going to feel when a pup comes up lame? You gonna help out with the vet bills. It'll be little solace to your friend when he won't be able to take Bingo out hunting with him. Setterguy said it best when he stated, the first visit to the vet with a genetic disorder will balance out the price between a higher priced pup that has been bred from clear stock and one that hasn't.

I wouldn't feel guilty if I were you about your breeding, and I'm not passing judgement or trying to make you feel guilt, even if you decide to breed again without the genetic testing, at least put a limited registration on the pups. This way your pups can still be registered but their offspring if bred will not be eligible for registration. You stated the real reason for the breeding was so that a bunch of guys can get their hunting dog. The limited registration does nothing to stop this from happening.

As for the "Ivory" issue, sell em' however you want, they're yellows and most reputable breeders will call them just that! Sell a guy who only wants an "Ivory" an ivory, and 8 months later it is medium yellow, what is going to be your explaination? Oh well? I'll continue to call them yellow and if someone asks if I have a lighter colored one available I'll let them know. Remeber a couple years ago the silver labs? or ghost labs? A breeder was really pushing these dogs... What a debacle...they ended up being a lab / wiemeriener cross. But for a short period it was all the rage, see what happens when we put to much emphasis on a certain color? People will do what ever it takes to make a buck and when a color becomes the predominant factor in the pick of the dog we want, we've got problems.

In closing I hope I didn't offend you, I really mean no ill feelings, I post what I post trying to educate more guys out there so we all have the same knowledge on this subject. I do not know everything about dogs and I may be wrong on certain points and I hope others jump in to correct me if I'm off base, and if there's more info others would like to share I am always willing to learn more.

Good Luck! Ken

[bigdog]

I have an "Ivory" lab. He started out almost pure white with a bit of yellow on the back and ears. He is 5 now and has gotten a little darker. Easy to see in the field, except in snowy cattails. I wouldn't get one again as the white hair REALLY shows up on clothes and furniture.

One note on color after reading these posts. Since they do darken with age (didn't know that many were born almost white and turned dark). Anyhow, I got mine at 7 months and he was white then so if you really want a white one you may have to look for an older dog.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 01-06-2004).]

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 01-06-2004).]

[Ruttin' Buck]

No offense taken LABS, these forums to me are a great source of education, opinions, and worthy discussion.

Please don't think that I am not concerned about a lame or diseased pup in the future for a buddy of mine or any owner that calls up for a pup. I wish to better the breed as much as you do.

My dogs hips have been x-rayed and I have done some very extensive reading on CHD. I think many 'backyard breeders' don't understand that CHD is a polygenial and multifactorial disease. Therefore, I think in addition to sire and bitch having non CHD hips, it is also important that dog owners realize that overexcercising and unbalanced nutrition (namely too much protien and calcium) can be major factors in if a dog ends up with hip problems. So I educated myself, and I pass on what I know to the owners.

In addition, both dogs come from good lines. Candlewood's, decendent of the Marathon Man, etc. and both dogs are approaching 5 yrs of age. As you probably are aware, the average dog with CHG develops symptoms at 2 yrs of age, so I waited to breed these dogs to be absolutely sure.

I do agree with Setterguy's statement that one trip to the vet can be the difference between the cost of a dog bred from clear stock and one that hasn't. But I do have a little bit of an issue with 24-36 month hip guarantees with guaranteed puppies costing $500-1000 when CHD for instance has a 0.2-0.6 inheritability factor. If 0.0 is non inheritable and 1.0 being completely under genetic control even 'clear stock' genes will on average impart 0.4 of the influence of the disease while the other 0.6 is left to the owner due to the maltifactorial nature of the disease. Plus what happens if your dog shows signs of CHD at 3.5 yrs....what's the breeder's course of action then? I do realize that good breeders do all they can to control diseases genetically, but I will be honest and say that genetics do not solve all problems with regard to all disease and I refuse to charge for it. So I honestly believe my pups have just as good a chance of growing up healthy as a guaranteed pup, but if a problem occurs the owner can be thankful that he didn't pay an arm and a leg for a pup with the same chances of having the condition.

Maybe a discussion for another post...but as for this post...you are all right in that any light colored yellow will get darker to some extent...some more than others...and ivory is only to be used to describe the nuance in shade of a dogs coat as it is not an official breed.

[Kodiak]

Thanks for all the help guys, i know there isnt a "ivory" breed, i just see the real light yellows and read the ivory in the paper and i relate that to the lighter colored ones and i find that disirable in my new hunting dog, this will be my first "own"hunting dog, i am 25 and have had many dogs in the past with my father and brother, i need all the help i can get.

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: Which trainer has your buddies dog? Mine left for the south today and will also be running the derby this summer. She will turn one on 1-29-04.
Keep up the educational post, also it was good talking to you on the phone from LOW over x-mas.

[LABS4ME]

Hey BB...good post, though I do want to rebutt 2 statements. I don't want guys thinking that either of these is the Whole truth. The first is the one about to much exercise and to much protein. Neither of these will CAUSE hip dysplasia, period, end of sentence! They can both exascerbate the problem (which is usually a God send as you have less time into the dog). The disease is an inherited genetic fault and it can and will skip a generation. That's why I stated it is imperitive to have both the parents and grandparents cleared...hips - elbows - eyes. My friend has a 14 month old pup out of my last breeding, down in Texas being trained to run derbys this spring. She is run hard on a lot of marks each day and is eating Eukanuba. She has been in training since Sept. When home for Christmas break, she went in for her preliminary evaluation on her hips and elbows. If nothing changes she will be recieve an Excellent on her hips and elbows clear next year. The second is you stated that Dyspalsia shows in a dog at an average of 2 years of age. If you're talking outward signs and not on film, this would be in the most severe cases. Dogs with mild dysplasia may never show symptoms until old age. Dogs with moderate dysplasia generally show symptoms at 3-6 years. The dog I spoke of in my previous post (rubbed me the wrong way) did not show any signs until a warm pheasant hunt at age 10. I knew she had a bad left hip, but I didn't do anything to help her or prolong the onset of the disease. Had I never x-rayed her, I never would have known she was dysplastic and she would have been bred several times as she was to this day, the best lab I ever owned. She was a test dog at many trials and trained along side many of the dogs I was running at the time. She was my primary duck dog and hunted all day every day in the pheasant field.

I'm wondering why if you x-rayed your dogs you didn't go ahead and have the films sent in to OFA for certification? The majority of the cost is in the office visit and x-rays not in the cert.

It sounds to me like you are knowledgable and are doing a lot more than the average breeder, it would be great to see you do that final step...if not, so be it, I honestly wish you good luck in all your breedings!

Good Luck my friend....

Ken

[Ruttin' Buck]

Hey LABS, one thing I wanted to ask you, can anyone access or request OFA records for dogs in their dogs pedigrees? Or more to the point, what is the best way to go up a few generations to assure none of the ancestors were hip dysplastic?

The reason my dog is not certified is not short. I considered breeding my dog when she was 2 years of age. Moving into a new area I found a great vet and he suggested I contact this lady who had a stud with champion lines and was working to win a few titles with him. Understandably so, she required a hip cert and venereal disease tests for my dog so at that time I got them so I was prepared. Well, not knowing what I know now, my dog was at the time 2 weeks shy of being 2 yrs old....as you know, they must be 2 to be OFA certified.

The lady with the stud dog had the same vet as myself and she had told me that he's seen enough film to know which hips pass OFA certs and which don't and that she trusted his judgement if I wanted to get the x-rays done to prepare for my dog coming into heat. I did, the hips looked great, the breed was not successful, and the lady has since gone MIA on me...none of her numbers are available anymore. I should really get my dog x-rayed again and send them into OFA. It may be interesting anyway to see if they've changed over the last few years.

So over the past few years I read, and read, and read some more and decided to wait with my dog until this year.

[Kodiak]

So does anyone have any ideas where i could get a good light colored yellow lab and some ideas on price???

[LABS4ME]

BB...You can access the records at www.offa.org Click on the search records link, have as much info as you can about the dog...ie. registered name, registration number, sex, etc. etc. You can just do it with the name...just make sure it's exactly how it's spelled. Good Luck! It sounds like your dog has sound hips, if people would at least do this, without applying for the #, it is a step in the right direction. Sounds like you are doing your homework...

DB...Did you end up finding the walleyes after the move? When you heading back up? Wouldn't mind meeting ya' sometime...

Good Luck! Ken

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-08-2004).]

[LABS4ME]

DB ...I forgot you other question, she went down with Greg Ye, Ten mile Creek Kennels out of New Richmond. She's in Texas now, really looking forwar to seeing her run!

Good Luck! Ken

[Kodiak]

that link takes us too ohio florists association LOL

[LABS4ME]

You didn't know they were the keeper of our animal records? LOL hehehehe Try www.offa.org Sorry - Ken

[duckbuster]

kodiak: Here is your official "white" Lab site.
www.aaalabs.com
I do know some one who has bought one from these people. The lab is still very light at the age of 3 now.
I did talk to the women from this place, she seemed very knowledgeable. She leans more toward the show side while her husband leans toward the hunting & trialing side. Check it out and see what they say. Let us know what they are thinking or doing with there litters.
GOOD LUCK

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: We ended up with only 16 on the ice. When I talked to you I believe we were in 30 feet. We moved into 25 around 11:30, then moved to 14 feet at 3:30 until 5:15. Between 4:30 & 5 we caught 5 walleyes, all about a pound to a pound & half. I quess you could say the day ended on a good note.

I am heading up with my 7 yr old daughter either 1-31-04 or 2-28-04. I will be going up with 3 other buddies on the weekend of 3-13-04. Our reservations for that trip are at the Sportsman's. If you are around on either of those times I would love to have a cold one and talk about dogs and fishing with you.
Let me know!!

[Labby]

Good topic guys. I agree with Labs on not letting the color phase be the deciding factor on choosing a Lab. When I got my last one I was set on a black male. I came home with a yellow male because I felt he was the best pup in the litter. I feel the choice in Breeders is more important than the color by far. I had a sick dog this fall (not a gentic issue) and it really makes for a tuff season. Get a good dog that has a good gentic background and you will be most happy. As for gurantees I would ask for at least a 24 month gurantee if not 3 yrs.

Labs4me When are you going back up to Red. Finally caught up with 9toes a few weeks back. Did he get his pup from you. Looking into trading a few pheasant hunts next fall for some fishing excursians this winter with him. Maybe we will meet up at he temple some day and talk hounds.

LAB

[LABS4ME]

Labby...going up the 16th, only gonna be up one night (Friday) that weekend. Honey has plans for us Saturday. Will be up every other weekend here on out. Let me know your schedule...I can be a little flexible as I own a landscape compamy . See ya' soon...

Ken

[Labby]

Will do Ken. January is booked solid for my weekends but Feb is wide open. I will let you know.

[Ruttin' Buck]

Hey LABS4ME, I realize we skidded off topic several posts ago, but wanted to thank you for that information. To all who need to inquire about pedigrees with respect to hips, eyes, elbows, etc. this is a great resource.

After I got done ordering some wonderful flowers from Ohio (ha), I checked up on the hips for the parents and grandparents of my lab and the sire. They are all registered to some extent....

I haven't found this information before, but you had claimed that due the the recessive nature of one (or more?) of the genes that can cause displaysia you must go at least 2 generations. I'd agree with this statement since dysplaysia is a polygenial and at least one of those genes is recessive.

Let me ask a question at this point. Here's where the 'to some extent' comes in....my question becomes, if only one parent of the sire is not registered, but 3 generations preceding that parent are registered, the displaysia should still be considered 'clean' from this line...correct?

Let me know what you think. Thanks again!

[LABS4ME]

Buckblaster...I'd consider that to be clean lines, I really like to see both parents, all four grandparents and if possible all the great grandparents. In your situation I'd say the odds are very low of dyspalsia being passed through the one dog not OFA'd if the preceeding three generations are clear. While I'm not the tell all expert (though I like to think I am sometimes, just ask my wife )what you're posting looks very very good! Whenever I have questions on genetics I rely on Dr. Fran Smith. She is probably one of the most knowledgeable lab breeders in the country. She is also on the board of OFA, and the only small animal reproduction specialist in the state. She works out of Burnsville if you ever need to any breeding work or OFA work done. When she evaluates your dog 9 times out of ten it will come back from the OFA with the same designation as she gave at her office. Hope all is well...did you place your last pup?

Good Luck! Ken

[Ruttin' Buck]

Actually Ken, I have 3 pups left, all males, 1 choc and 2 blacks. Just ran them in the Star Tribune for this weekend. I hate to see them around after 7 weeks...you know the trainer general rule, 49 days.

All in all not the best time of year to sell pups, although they'd be perfect for next year's season at 10 months. I'm going to decide in the next week if I'll train 1 or 2 out and sell them trained this Spring, or maybe open up a special wintertime price for FM'ers only!

[LABS4ME]

I've had pups that I've had deposits on and the "new owners" fell through at time of pick-up. If these pups aren't sold right away, I'll start their training and sell them at around 16 weeks. I've done this a few times, and the new owners jusy love it...a house trained pup with all the basic obedience well on it's way and a good start a "fun" retrieves. Only problem is the kids really fall in love with them and they want to keep em' around. I keep thinking it'll get easier on the kids with each litter, but they never really want to let them go! My 19 year old daughter is the worse and my 6 year old son is the best at seeing them off...go figure. But boy do they help in sociallizing them! I know what you mean about selling winter pups, but you're right they'll be hunting this fall. Good luck with the boys! I hope they all find a home that'll provide them with plenty of tired nights in Oct, Nov, & Dec!

Ken

[Ruttin' Buck]

That's a great idea Ken. Any problems between siblings as they get older? I'd kennel them together and obviously train them individually. One thing I wanted to ask...do you name them? Or do you just praise them with 'good boy' until they're sold?

[LABS4ME]

Sorry for the delay in reply...had to catch a few Red Lake slabs!!!!

Generally I seperate them in crates, especially if there seems to be a hierarchy starting. Don't want to have the issues of dominence / submissive perosnalities starting. They still get plenty of play time together though, if I have more than one. Training is always done individually.

I always name them, and for the most part the new owners keep the name. I just found out last week that a pup I'd sold from my last litter that I named, had his name switched when I sold him at 14 weeks. The new owners said he picked up on it amazingly well. They had a name already in mind when they were looking for a pup, so Hobo became Drake. They really liked the fact that he was potty trained and had a good grasp of his obedience commands, it helped in the transition to his new home (with an 11 year old black male) better than they imagined. If you have the time to do this, it seems to be a good way to offer another option to potetntial buyers. I never really get "more" money for them after you add up the additional shots, food, training etc. but you'll cover your expenses (I figure I get about $200 +/- more for a 16 week old) and the additional experience of working with a pup.

Good Luck!

Ken