Special regs?

[Guest]

I was on the SCLV website and saw that they are considering special regulations for Vermilion. Any word on how this is proceeding? I think this is long overdue.

[Guest]

Sensitive topic?

[guideman]

There was talk about walleye slots the last few years, the DNR dosen't feel a slot would change the population much.

I would like to see some protection for the Northern Pike and the smallies. I would like to see a 10 to 14" slot for
smallmouth, to protect the big females.
Unfortunatly, I don't think that will happen any time soon.

I'm not to sure what to do about the pike, we have good numbers of big fish
but the overall population is average.
Maybe a slot of 25 to 40" that must be
released, and 1 fish over 40" for that
trophy, or better yet, that replica.

My major concern is the muskie fishery,
I would like to see a higher minmum say
48 to 50", that way most of the muskie
that are taken by walleye fishing will
go back instead of kept and killed.
I would also like to see a stop to all spearing on Vermilion, but we have had enough conversation about that.

The DNR may not agree but most of the guides on Vermlion, would like to see a
slot limit on walleye as well.
My personal opinion for a slot would be
17 to 24" must go back and one fish can be over 26".
on Vermilion

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[Guest]

i agree with a slot,though im new on vermilion,the walleye numbers seem to be good but the average size seems small,therefore my personal slot is 14-17 everything else goes back.while talking with cliff out in his fish house he told me he had seen stringers of 10"-12" walleyes come in.its thier right but i think its sad. dave

[Guest]

I have seen many a stringer of cigars pulled out of the lake. (I don't want to start something here but most of the boats I've seen with these cigars have IA or IL on the side.) This is the main reason I think we need special regs.I'd like to see a slot of 15-18" with one 28" or over. I think this would allow more recruitment of small fish and increase the average size (14") to 15" or 16" in the long run. We have had it good on Vermilion for the past few years, but I still remember the lean years. I think we all should and make the most of these incredible year classes by putting a little pressure on the DNR. Maybe someday biology will win over politics.

[Guest]

I have seen many a stringer of cigars pulled out of the lake. (I don't want to start something here but most of the boats I've seen with these cigars have IA or IL on the side.) This is the main reason I think we need special regs.I'd like to see a slot of 15-18" with one 28" or over. I think this would allow more recruitment of small fish and increase the average size (14") to 15" or 16" in the long run. We have had it good on Vermilion for the past few years, but I still remember the lean years. I think we all should and make the most of these incredible year classes by putting a little pressure on the DNR. Maybe someday biology will win over politics.

[TomWehler]

Walleye slot sounds good, then see what happens after five years.
Returning ALL Pike over 36 or so inches would be cool also.
High 50" plus slot on Musky would be cool.
Pike and Musky take so long to get this large it is a shame to kill'em when there are quality replica mounts out there for about the same cost as a skin mount.

Great fishing though.
Big water, and DNR knows best.
I will agree with what ever is mandated.

Love that Island and everything around it.

T.

www.muskytomsguideservice.com

[husker4u9899]

There are people from everywhere that should not be allowed on the water fishing. My view has long been that if we were REALLY SERIOUS about protecting any particular body of water that the fish population was being stressed for what ever reason we ban the use of any electronic equipment to locate fish for a period of time that the respective DNR's would mandate, along with what ever other protective measures were needed. I would allow the use of 1 digital read-out depth finder for safety reasons. I will coming to Vermilion for the first time this year. Coming early June and staying at Voyager Cove Resort. Looking forward to the trip, have spent years at Leach and Bowstring, thought is was time for a change of scenery before these old bones can't get around. I really enjoy all of your comments and know that they are all well intended and different points of view are always healthy. See you in June. PS: We only keep fish for a meal or two, don't take any home.

[Guest]

I'm glad to see the subject of regulations come up. I think the DNR needs to manage all of MN's lakes on a lake by lake basis with input from the locals. The DNR has got personnel all over the state so each district should have a handle on what's going on in each body of water.

As for Vermilion, I think a slot limit makes a lot of sense and for all species.

I know most everyone thinks only of walleyes northerns and smallies. But what really has me riled up is the DNR's proposal to change the state sunfish bag/possession limit to only 10. Gees, that's not enough for a fish fry for you and your wife and kids. It also would end taking any for the freezer for a fish meal in winter for those of us that don't ice fish. I don't think the sunnies in Vermilion are in trouble. Sure we'd like to catch all big ones so why not put a size limit on them to protect the big ones. There are plenty of smaller ones that could be taken say from 5-7" and that would protect the big ones. But to make it only 10 just seems to conservative. This will force guys to cull to keep the biggest 10 they can. And wait till the IL, IN, IOWA crowd comes up and find out they can only have 10 in possession. I've mentioned this to some IL. guys and they laugh at a 10. limit.

I don't what any of us can do about what the DNR is going as new regs are slated to go into effect for 2002.

Sure glad this forum is here to air out our thoughts. Although I can't fine the time to ice fish, I sure enjoy "tuning in" to this form to see what's happening on the lake.

JimFish

[David Swenson]

Special Regs, the one thing I know for sure is I am tired of law making. How many fishing regs do you need and were will it end? I understand why there are special regs on Rainy and Red Lakes. Those lakes were clearly in trouble. Vermilion is not. Especially when it comes to muskies.

I went to a speaker meeting this past fall in which the DNR was speaking on Muskie Management on Vermilion. He stated there is no plan to impose any special regs on any species in Vermilion. There is no plan to ban spearing. With the information they gave me I agree with the DNR. Muskie fishing in Minnesota is some of the best in the world right now. I feel our DNR is some of the best in the country.

The best way to promote sound management is not to impose laws every time you think something needs fixing. I say it is education. Educate resort and bait shop owners. Give them the information to pass onto anglers. Make flyers about catch and release for anglers. Fifteen years ago I was a meat hunter with the exception of Muskies. Muskie anglers taught me the benefits of catch and release for all species. Now I am a strong supporter of catch and release. Why? Not because of laws but because of education.

A simple way to put it; "you have to make catch and release the cool thing to do". Becoming militant about catch and release will only push people away.

You also have to remember no matter what regs or education you have people will always meat hunt. A lot of these people take or possess more than their limits. This is a issue for law enforcement. There are programs such as TIP in Minnesota to assist law enforcement. If you know someone's spearing Muskies or taking more than their limit on fish, turn them in to the Warden. It is your duty to do so if you truly value our natural resource.

David Swenson
http://muskieguide.homestead.com/

[Guest]

I agree with David. We alresdy have too many laws. you almst need to be a lawyer to keep up with the fishing regultaion book. Although slot limits may be a good idea on paper, but rules and laws are only as good as the enforcement. I have yet to see a game warden, on Vermilion, the BWCA or elsewhere. The only time I was approached was from a DNR official taking a census of what I was fishing for, and time spent fishing. The fines and penalties for breaking the rules are not tough enough as a deterent, but rather a slap on the wrist. I think we need more wardens and stiffer penalties.

[TomWehler]

Good points.
Police ourselves?
Works for me, as I to do not need any more rules or laws to follow, but will everyone buy into it?
We only eat a few walleyes a season and some Sunnies.
Release EVERYTHING else.
I feel Dave and Robert make good points, but can we expect everyone to do as we do?
With MORE and MORE people coming to the area will this plan work?
Hope so.
20 years from now?
30?
60?
Time will tell.
I'm shooting for 100, so I would like to see these good times last.
I also agree that the Minnesota DNR is GREAT!
Hats off to them.

T.

[guideman]

Hi Guys,
I hate to sound like the "Fish Police"
unfortunately, It's been my experence that most people will keep as many fish as thy can get away with. Education and
ethics only come in to play, when your dealing with ethical anglers.

I love to see folks get their limit of walleye, and it is part of the total fishing experence. However there is a
major difference in a limit of 15" or 18" walleye and a limit of 24" or 25" fish.

The lake is very heathy right now, but
it wasn't so long ago that the walleye
and the smallmouth were in trouble. I would like to see it protected before it becomes a problem, not after.

In my humble opinion, if your doing the right thing, new regs shouldn't be a
major problem, because it only makes it tough on people who don't follow the laws.

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[CJ]

Hey Gang,

I have always disliked the only one pole and only 1 daily bag limit on Vermilion but one of my favorites is no minimum length limit on walleye. We always have a fish fry when we are up north and some monday nite frys were saved by 14" fish. Im all for selective harvest leave me some small ones just in case.
CJ

[CJ]

I cant post very long messages so im posting in spurts.
I also think that the one who first takes you fishing or teaches you how to fish has a great influence on how you will treat the fishery. my 6 and 8 yr. old wonder why we never keep any smallmouth but when they see me catch that 20" fish i will be able to keep it without any guilt and there will be a great value placed on that trophy. POINT Lead by example. CJ

[guideman]

Hi CJ,
We all have to make sacrifices, I tell
you what, I'll put back all the little walleyes I catch, so there will always be some fish for you pal.

I guess we could spare 1, 20" smallie,
as a matter of fact, I hope you catch it, when your fishing with me.

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[Guest]

My views on slot limits are to prevent depleation of walleyes and to improve the average catch size. I certainly do not have a problem with keeping a few for the pan. I think Ace said it best that most people will keep as many fish as they can. As far as education on catch and release, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Vermilion has seen a great increase in fishing pressure the past few years. We used to fish Pike Bay on opener. Now you can almost walk from Hoodoo to Puncher. I beleive we need some regs now in order to keep Vermilion from becoming a "dead sea". I'll leave with one last thought, "Tradgedy of the Commons"

[Guest]

Now that we have some of our opinions out, what is the DNR really going to do? The time for comment supposedly ended last year and they are going to make changes in 2002. I've been checking the DNR's web site to see what they have planed for the 2002 season. They have a chart showing some proposed changes to the existing limits. Does anyone know when they are going to finalize what there are going to do?

JimFish

[David Swenson]

You have to help me hear. I think some of you are saying the majority of anglers are unethical and meat hunters. That the only hope for anglers is more regulation. That you will only catch big fish if there is slot limits. If I am wrong in how I am reading your posts please let me know because I can not disagree with you more if I am reading it right.

I personally have found most anglers to be respectful of the resource and put back the big girls. I have found that most take only what they are allowed by law. I have found most anglers are receptive to new ideas and change (education). I have found there are a few idiots out there that give the rest of us a bad name by poaching, meat hunting and dishonesty.

Please correct me if I am reading your statements wrong, because if they are correct I have a whole lot more to say. Education does work otherwise you guys would not be letting the big girls go.

David Swenson
http://muskieguide.homestead.com/

[guideman]

Hi Dave,
I guess I just don't have your faith in human nature.

Next time you want to do some research on the subject, just go watch the fish
cleaning shack at McKinley park for an
evening.

There ain't no muskies there pal, just meat!....

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[Guest]

CJ,

You can have that 20" smallie after I catch it once. Just look for the hook mark.

[guideman]

Hi Dave,
I'm not against education of any kind,
heck.....I even went to college for a while.

My point of view is a very selfish one,
I live on Vermilion....so anything that
happens to the lake, directly effects me, and my livelyhood for that matter.

I think the percentage of "evil doers"
is much higher than most people think.
Not everyone is as enlightend about the
values of selective harvest or C&R, as you may think.

They may have good intentions, but when they see that 8lb walleye, or that fat
45"muskie, their eye's bug out and they start to mumble.....The very next thing you know, they start to talk about how good that fish would look, hanging on their wall.

Special regs, have saved many lakes and
rivers from disasters over the years.
They were in trouble because of years
of over harvest and the apathy of the angling puplic. Check out the thread on
"dead muskie's" on muskie central, the
people in those pictures look educated
to me.

The webmaster of the site, with all the dead muskie's, e-mailed me to explain that all things on earth are here to be eaten, and they basicly have the right to kill every freckin muskie they want.

That comes from a guy that is a member of a muskie club, I'm afraid there are
more members of that fraturnity than you think. Look at all the heat the DNR has taken over lowering the perch limit
this year. Two guys can still have like 60 fish in their possession, and that's not enough for some.

Gee's is the ice gone yet?
no guideman, go back to sleep.

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[Guest]

David, I do not think a majority of anglers on Vermilion are poachers or unethical. There are many who follow the law and feel that the set limits are OK. I don't think they are OK. The DNR seems to have a policy of "don't fix it 'till it's broke". I am not knocking the fisheries managers. They are intelligent and dedicated professionals. The problem is that their hands are bound by political red tape. They are not allowed to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. I have a few friends that went to work for the DNR after graduating from college and they were all disappointed by what they found and have since left. I agree that the muskie fishery is alive and kickin' in MN and on Vermilion. C&R is the reason. Among all fishermen, C&R ethics are the strongest within the muskie ranks. It is also a growing trend for the smallie chasers. But let's face it, both these species are not well known as good table fare to begin with. Who does everyone turn to when they want a tasty meal? Poor Mr.Walleye (not Gary Roach). He's been getting the sharp side of the knife. I think muskies and smallmouth are doing great in MN and I believe they will continue to do so. But with walleyes it's either feast or famine and I think it's time to give them a little help. I would like to see more consistant fishing thru the years. The only way this will happen is thru special regs similar to Kab and Nam's. Education is a key element but it won't work alone. I too have seen the fish cleaning shack at McKinley, not a pretty site. If you want to go in there and tell a bunch of people holding knives that they are keeping too many fish....well, good luck!

[Guest]

Pop-Rs with rattles, Guideman. You've gotta have the rattles.

The ice fishing season has been mediocre to poor. But, I still grit my teeth and bear it 3 to 4 times a week.

Pop...pop...pop......slurp. Guideman, I gotta 'nother one.

[David Swenson]

Ace,

Here is great opportunity for you to make change. You identified a place you can provide education through flyers, posters, or how about a seminar on fishing and the importance of catch and release at McKinley.

I counter your muskie death in the fish house with some of the fish I caught this year that were clearly released by others. Someone is trainable in catch and release and is letting them go. Then there is the fish I found floating dead probally due to poor release techniques. What regulation should we make for this problem? Maybe we make it illegal to fish muskies when surface temps exceed 65 degrees? Barbless hooks? Etc.? You see, in my opinion the regulations could go on forever.

My point is this, education and sound management does work. The muskie fishery in Minnesota is living proof of it. No one can dispute this right now with factual evidence. Our muskie fishery is 10 times better than any other state. Heck, people have quit fishing LOW's for muskies and now come to Vermilion.

David Swenson
http://muskieguide.homestead.com/

[This message has been edited by David Swenson (edited 01-15-2002).]

[guideman]

Hi Bornofice,
How is the hard water season going for you? I have been out buying all the Pop
"R"'s I can find, next trip I'll have the hot bait buddy.

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[vermilionfox]

Fishing regs have to be looked at very carefully prior to their enactment. When a regulation works on one body of water, it will not necessarily work on another. There are too many factors that will influence the outcome.
Heck in a way you can even consider the Big V to be two different bodies of water, east and west. So where do we go with that one? Regs for each end?
I'll always side with education. My first trip to Big V I ran across an article that talked about what fish sizes to harvest in relation to spawning size females. The article encouraged harvesting smaller fish to leave the larger more prolific spawning females to naturally promulgate the species. The article covered all species. I'd like to see that article again! It makes sense.
As for the "meat" fisherman from other states (IA, IL, etc.) that's totally unfair. I've seen more than my fair share of natives of MN, which I am not DARN'IT, take stringers of fish to just fill the freezer.......therefore educate everyone. The state you reside in does NOT make you a profligate abuser of natural resources, as that is a learned behavior.
Most of us that live outside of MN have the same deep affection for Big V that the natives have.
My wife and I brought home fish from our trip to Vermilion this past summer. I pulled out the list last night.
14 bluegills.
1 Northern.
1 smallmouth (sorry, it was gill fouled and bleeding badly)
12 rock bass.
Meat fishermen??????

Trust your DNR, they've got a good thing going at Vermilion, and a vested interest in the economy it generates. They'll make it right.

------------------
vermilionfox
St. Louis, MO

[guideman]

Hey Fox,
What do you think your doing, taking all those rock bass, now we need a slot
for them as well!

------------------
Ace guide service.
Beautiful Lake Vermilion.
[email protected]
www.aceguideservice.com
(218) 753-2612

[Cliff Wagenbach]

I am all for a slot size for walleyes on Vermilion.
I think it should be a 14 to 17 inch keeping size, and release ALL other fish.
If you catch a trophy measure it and get a replica made. They last longer and are probably better looking than the real fish in the long run.
There are times when you will HAVE to keep a big fish, such as a fish hooked too deep or a weak fish that does not recover from being caught.
I relize that with the slot size I would like to see these fish could not be legelly kept, and I really hate to see them wasted or have the seagulls eat them, but they sure will not live if they are hanging on a wall or in someones freezer!!
Another concern I have with slots is that once they are established the D.N.R. very rarely adjust the slot once all the fish are outside the slot.
I would hope that once a majority of the fish caught are above the slot size, the D.N.R. would adjust the keeper size to reflect the fish average size.
Most people go fishing to bring home a meal,at least in my guiding experience with my customers. They are not meat hunters, but they sure do love to eat walleyes!!
So do I !!
Catch and Release does work and is working on Vermilion!!
Good fishing and release those big ones.
Cliff

------------------
Cliff's Guide Service
CliffsGuideService-LakeVermilion.com
Lake Vermilion
Phone: (218) 753-2005

[Guest]

I talked to my brother-in-law ( a DNR rep.)about this topic. Simplistically, a lake can be thought of as a fish bowl. It can support a large number of small fish, a low number of large fish, or a moderate number of small and large fish. But never will it support a large number of large fish. Not enough forage.

The fish population is typically cyclical. A large number of small fish means more forage to grow larger fish. But as the population of small fish decreases due to predation, over time the larger fish will also die off to starvation. In other words a lake will always strive for balance. This not acounting to other factors such as mortality and fishing pressure.

For every action that is implemented, a reaction takes place, whether it is slot limits, or stocking. The lake can only support what it can, thus balances itself out. But there are too many variables year to year such as natural predation, desease, and fishing pressure to know wheather different regulations will prove to work or not. Some years are lean, some are great, nature has that way.

I feel the DNR is caught in the middle with one group wanting more fish, and another group wanting larger fish. They can't cater to both, or just one group. Thus a compromise of both must be established. The DNR also has to make the rules managable, enforceable, and easy to adhere to. Even though I don't agree with the DNR on a few items, in my mind, they are doing a great job. Perhaps slot size limits will work, for now, but what about 3 years from now?

As far as meat fishers, they will always do what they do no matter the laws or regulations. They will always push the limit, or break the limit. They are the takers. Education may work, penalties may work, but for some, neither will work.

Anyway, 4 more months!

Rob