The Suspended Walleye Revolution

[Scoot]

Toad,

I tried fishing suspended fish on White Earth on Tues. and Wed. with no luck at all. However, through a series of mishaps I ended up leaving my deep diving crank tackle box at home (don't ask) so I had to use cranks that ran at who knows what depth.
I am not able to find the thermocline with my graph- it's a Lowrance x-60... probably 12 years old or more. I did mark the ciscos in deep water from 8 to 40 feet down. I was surprised by this- I expected to see a lot of fish related to a small area in the water column where the thermocline is. Is this typical?
Another question (sorry if it's already been asked/answered)- am I wasting my time without a line counter on the reel and the book Rick recommended? I'm using 10 lb. superline (I know this is not ideal), maybe I'll switch that, but at least I know how deep my typical cranks are going with it- 8 to 14 feet. I'm not geared too well for fishing cranks more than 15 below the surface. Any cost effective suggestions?
Scoot

[Toad]

Hi Scoot,

Glad you got out there; that's the first step most fishermen won't take 'cause they either simply won't believe the pattern exists or think it's just too difficult logistically, but nothing could be further from the truth (although a multiple line allowance would be nice). Few years ago I actually got into an arguement with a well-known area guide about the pattern; I won't mention names. (He went so far to hint that, in fact, I was lying about it in an attempt to make a fool out of him; he'd be out there in the middle of nowhere trolling with his clients who would think he was goofy, and his reputation as a hot stick would be forever tarnished). What's wrong with being considered goofy? I thought . . .

Anyway, the thermocline in most deep, clear lakes runs anywhere from 25 to maybe 40 feet of water. So most often, you'll contact walleyes from 10 to 23, 24 feet down over these deep basins.

During midday in lakes like White Earth, which is largely infertile, sufficient oxygen can exist even beneath the thermocline. That means that you will see ciscoes spread over a wide vertical range. They can range from 100+ feet, up all the way to the surface to feed in lakes like these. Though they won't remain high in the water column except around twilight periods.

The key is to realize that in summer walleyes and other gamefish normally only cross paths with ciscoes in this 0 to 25 foot range (below the surface). Each lake is different, and every day on each lake is different also. Bring friends so you can run extra lines with staggered depths and baits. Won't take long to find out what works.

As far as line-counter reels, sure, they're nice, but far from essential. Just get to where you can estimate line length (or put a bobber stop on the line for measurement sake). My favorite set-ups include 7 to 8-1/2 foot K-Mart specials (fiberglass for shock-absorption with a bit of backbone). Large capacity reels like a Abu Garcia 5500 are perfect. Also, high gear ratios are nice for quick line retrieval. Otherwise, you can get decent line-counter reels for around $50.

For line, Berkley Fireline in the 10/4, 14/6 or 20/8 sizes work fine. Berkley Whiplash is also incredible stuff (twice as thin as Fireline for its breakstrength).

Other tools that will help your trolling are planer boards (I like Church Tackle boards), snap weights (also from Church Tackle or OffShore Tackle), good rod holders and the trolling depth book.

If you're at all like me, you'll simply become comfortable with 'your system' based on experience with what works and what doesn't. I use the book only to get a rough idea of depth. With Fireline, the more line you run behind the boat, the deeper your lures will dive. To get to the 20 to 25 foot depths, you really don't need any sort of extra weight system.

Take a #9 Shad Rap, for example. With 250 feet of 14/6 Fireline I reach 22-23 feet while trolling 1.8mph (10lb. Fireline like you're using will get the lure even deeper because of less water resistance). The 8 to 14 foot zone you're talking about is also often a very productive depth range. Though again, each lake is different. Look for those ciscoes flipping on the surface.

Hope I've answered your questions (or at least not confused you too much). Let's keep this dialogue going. Hey, I'm learning from you fellas, too! So thanks for your help!

-a friend called Toad

[GullGuide]

Just a side comment about your guide conversation Toad,
I too was almost laughed off the dock when discussing this with fellow guides one morning. They even razzed me about trolling structure. Guess some people do not want to leave their comfort zone to try something new. Had to comment on that one.
>"////=<

[Jim W]

Hey all,
I would like to add a couple comments. First, my hats off for pioneering!! Taking the time to share something that works with others is fantastic!
Second, "comfort zone" methodology will sooner or later catch up to you! Heck, I caught the biggest walleye of my life, by going outside of my usual tactics, fishing completely opposite of my "usual" comfortable and at best average walleye strategy!! Please keep this topic alive! I'm loving it!!! Jim W

[Scoot]

Man,

I'm armed with lots of good info. Now, if I can only get back out there asap. I do have a couple of questions still, though.
Toad, you're talking about planer boards quite a bit- would you strongly recommend them or are they just nice to use? It sounds like they aren't manditory though, right?
Another questions I have is regarding when to fish. I know you're saying low light conditions, but what about after dark? Would night fishing during full moons be a good bet too? Last night after the sun set I was still marking baitfish, but not in the same numbers that I marked earlier.

I agree, this is a good topic. Thanks to all for the info. I hope I can put it to effective use.
I fished in my "comfort zone" for 5 hours and only caught one walleye this weekend so the 1.5 hours I pulled cranks was right on track with my "comfort zone" pace (I caught none). I can see there is lots to learn about running these cranks regarding equipment- I will get the hang of it and I will catch fish with this method- quote me on that one!!!
Scoot

[Scoot]

Sicne I'm the man of a million questions, I think I'll do my part to make that name accurate. I thought of a couple more-
Do you find that you do better when it's calm or breezy? I'd imagine you could spot the ciscos surfacing better if the water was like glass, but then you'd probably spook a lot more fish too. When I was out yesterday it was still pretty windy and I couldn't see anything surfacing- but that's probably just because I couldn't pick up on it due to the chop on the water.
If it's like glass I suppose the planer boards make a big difference, huh?
Scoot

[Toad]

Scoot,

Planer boards aren't mandatory by any means. However, once you get into a pattern like this, you'll start seeing big advantages in fine-tuning, like with boards, etc. In lakes I fish, floating weeds and debris can be a big problem; boards keep the stuff from making its way down to your plug. Too, as you add lines, the increase in horizontal coverage is a huge help in locating fish and fine-tuning.

Timewise, it's clearly been best in the evening; from sunset 'til about 2 hours after-- that's prime time! Earlier in the year, though, it can definitely happen during the day. Sort of going back to what we were talking about earlier, it's simply a matter of examining daily periods when ciscoes will be crossing paths with walleyes in the water column. Without getting in-depth into tracking studies and such, evidence appears to suggest that (in summer) walleyes hold on structure near bottom during the day. Then, as ciscoes rise in the water column near evening (ciscoes are coldwater fish by nature), walleyes swim into the open basin in pursuit.

This may or may not be totally true, though. I believe that if there's sufficient oxygen below the thermocline to support ciscoes, then why not walleyes. Perhaps there is some feeding taking place during the day in these 40 to 60 to 100 foot depths . . . (We'll see).

Getting back to your questions, after dark the fish will certainly continue feeding. Though as insects cease hatching and plankton spreads out, ciscoes also scatter. A few hours after dark, walleyes can still be caught, just that you might have to cover more water to get back on 'em. Full moons would definitely be worth a shot, though I haven't seen a pronounced improvement yet.

Finally, about wind conditions, you should still be seeing flipping ciscoes in a little "walleye chop." Bigger winds haven't really appeared to hamper the fishing. Again, you just gotta look at everything in terms of how conditions effect the aquatic system. (Food chain activity and all).
Actually, I kinda like more wind-- it moves the weeds and other floating debris toward shore where it won't catch on your lure.

Yep, in glass calm conditions, boards will help in the spooking factor. Just watch out for oblivious boaters-- have had boards run over on two separate occasions. That's about a $40 loss in each case, not including lost line. Yikes!

-a friend called Toad

[Ybone]

The laughter of the guides brings back memories of when my brother and I were kids in the mid 60s. We laughed when old Ned told us about his favorite fishing spot since the average depth in that area was 70 feet which we considered dead water as far as fishing is concerned. But then we realized Ned was catching some darn nice walleyes over that deep water, not many but when he caught one it was usually 6lbs or more. What puzzled us was that he was just dragging a spinner and minnow with a light weight and couldn't have been more than 10 or 15 feet down. He had no idea how deep it was, just that he could catch a fish there once in a while and didn't snag on any weeds. I think you can sometimes learn as much from inexperienced or average fishermen as you can from the experts because they will try things that make no sense and sometimes it works.

[Toad]

bmg-

No question the tactic works on Mille Lacs. I haven't personally experimented a lot with the system out there-- guess I've been more into proving that it works on lesser known fisheries. But I do know that guys like Dave Csanda, Mark Dorn and Al Lindner have done quite a bit of open water trolling on Mille Lacs. Needless to say, it works.

Ciscoes (tullibees) are very abundant in the lake. Best spots to troll plugs are over deep gravel flats like Sloppy Joes and the Graveyard or between adjacent mud flats.

Pull #9 Shad Raps (minnow pattern) for walleyes closer to the bottom. Deep Smithwick Rogues, Deep Husky Jerks and Rebel Spoonbills work on those 12 to 15 foot zone fish. And by all means, experiment! What I've mostly found by now is that the tactic works on all lakes with small ciscoes, yet there are minor variances in the pattern on every lake-- depth, trolling speed, lure preference, time of day, etc.

Let us know how you do!

-a friend called Toad

[bmg]

toad -

I'm wondering if this method would work on mille lacs ... although it is a shallow lake (about 37ft max in most areas) I almost always notice small fish jumping to the surface when I'm out on the flats. I haven't seen what they are, but they could be tullibee since mille lacs has a healthy population of those. let me know what your thoughts are.

[Scoot]

Toad,

I fished walleyes over 100 feet of water this weekend and ended up catching one eye in about 1.5 hours of trying (also lost a large northern at the surface). My first open water walleye- cool.
I have a couple of questions for you.
Do you use a flourocarbon or mono leader? Do you often see fish stacked vertically, one on top of another (they were not baitfish- looked like walleye marks). I wouldn't mark a fish for several minutes then I'd mark 30 of them one on top of another- I mean right on top of another- one arc directly on top of the next and none before or after the rest... weird.
Scoot

[Guest]

Would a drop shot style rig work on these suspended fish? Let's say something along the lines of a drop weight just heavy enough to keep the bait in the zone, and the drop rigged with fluorocarbon to prevent spooking fish? Maybe even live large shiners?

You mentioned that you seen them piggy's costing along almost following the boat. It seams that if a good shiner or Cisco imitator plastic rigged on a drop shot below the suspended bait ball would trigger a few fish?

A flutter and fall presentation may imitate well a dyeing baitfish falling away from the school is my thinking.

Just a thought?

BE.....><,,>

[Scoot]

Ed,

I've heard of drop shot rigs before, but I'm not exactly sure what they are- is it just another name for a 3-way rig?
Scoot

[Flick]

Scoot- At least for bass fishing, a drop shot rig is your main line tied to a hook, then another piece of line tied to the opposite side of the hook eye, attached to the end of that line is a weight(shot). It is best fished somewhat vertically. This allows the hook and bait to hang horizontally in the water-above the weeds, just adjust the dropper length. Works pretty good on bass.

[Toad]

Hi Fellas,

Nice to see this topic resurrected. The bite had really fallen to pieces on me up until two nights ago. Now I'm excited again; ready for the next batch of discoveries.

Scoot, glad you broke the ice out there. Relative to leaders, on the infrequent occasion I run a spinner rig in open water, 6 and 8 lb fluorocarbon has been my line of choice. It certainly can't hurt, although I can't say for sure whether it's really helped either.

For what it's worth, I don't believe line visibility is critical enough in this pattern to worry much about it. Although, again, it certainly can't hurt, especially given the clear nature of many of these deep lakes. I find that running a mono or floro leader also deadens your ability to "read the rod" as far as proper lure vibration and hooking small debris, etc. 'Course, that's also lost when you run boards . . . (As you can tell, I'm pondering this stuff as we go here ). Let's just say, when the fish are out there feeding, I haven't seen a marked difference while experimenting.

To your question about vertically stacked arcs, without seeing exactly what you're seeing, I can only take a few guesses. When walleyes and other predators (pike and salmon especially) get to really feeding heavily on suspended bait schools, you'll observe vertical "columns" of baitfish that appear virtually surrounded by bigger arcs. This type of feeding situation could be what you're seeing. Ciscoes travel in relatively dense pods, so as you're trolling, you might have a 70 yard stretch where you're not marking much of anything. Then you begin to notice a few "flippers" on the surface and your LCG starts to darken with life-- dense clouds of ciscoes from the surface down to 25 to 30 feet intermingled with larger hooks (walleyes, pike, etc.).

Ed- as far as other presentations like drop shotting or livebait, absolutely. This is real pioneering you're talking about. To my knowledge, almost no one fishes this pattern. And then, those that do exclusively troll with plugs, spoons and spinner harnesses.

It all started in the late 70s / early 80s, when guys like Capt. Jim Fofrich on Lake Erie began casting Erie Dearies tipped with nightcrawlers. Vertical spooning also works on western reservoirs, where walleyes suspend and feed on shad. But I'm getting a bit off topic here.

The fluttering presentation you talk about could be really effective. I've been wanting to try ultra slow-trolling with lightly weighted big shiners. Or drifting with suspended livebaits below slip floats.

Thing is though, my sense sorta tells me that when these fish are out there and you get a plug through the right depth, they will almost always hit. I've wondered whether slower, more subtle presentations were really necessary in this case. Can't say for sure. But again, it sort of seems like the fish are either there feeding or they're not there at all, so you won't catch them no matter what. Certainly if this openwater thing wasn't such a numbers game as far as covering water fast, I'd be much more likely to try these slower, more subtle methods.

I can guarantee you one thing . . . I think it's definitely worth finding out for ourselves. Might be the beginning of yet another incredible discovery. So let's get to it and meet back here real soon!

-a friend called Toad

[Scoot]

I thought of another question that I have- when you talk about ciscoes on the surface do you see an occasional one on the top or do you see a bunch of fish (a whole school) cut water on top?
Scoot

[Willy]

So guys do you think that this method will or would work in some of the shallower southern mn lakes. I'd really love to try this thing and was out tonight and marked a lot of fish suspended out over fairly deep water. (25-35Ft) I don't think there are much for ciscoes around here but I know there are shiners and other bait out there. Do you think it's worth a try or not?

[bae501]

TOAD,

DO ALOT OF FISHING ON UPPER MISSION, HAVE YOU EVER TRIED THIS METHOD ON THAT LAKE?

I KNOW THE CISCO POPULATION IS HIGH.

BAE501

[Big Roy]

Any action on Gull? I have never been on the lake before and I am going to be at the campground this weekend. Any tips on fishing the lake would be helpful.

[Toad]

Fellas,

Getting back with the program here . . .

Scoot-- Normally you'll see one or two "flippers" at a time, although they are usually part of a much larger school of ciscoes. You get these little pods of activity where for 10 to 20 seconds you'll see ciscoes breaking the surface constantly. But the schools appear to be in perpetual motion as they elude predators and follow concentrations of copepods and daphnia (zooplankton).

So why do they jump? Hmmm . . . Sometimes we see a big pike actually break the surface behind several fleeing ciscoes. Walleyes don't often break the surface, but we know they often chase these critters up near the surface, which can also cause ciscoes to jump. Finally, slashing at clusters of plankton near the surface often propells them into the air. Theses reasons are why it's nearly always a good idea to run one bait "high."

Willy-- The method is certainly applicable to other lakes-- especially shallow darkwater dishpan type lakes that abound in southern and western MN. In this case, the dark water may restrict shallow weed growth, causing perch, sunfish and shiners (as you describe) to suspend in the open basin. Obviously, walleyes will be there also. Look for areas of the lake with the most expansive uniformly flat muck or mud bottom. Nice thing about these lakes, too, is that it's often times a real good daytime bite.

bae501-- Upper Mission would certainly be a candidate for this method. Although I've never trolled the basin for walleyes out there, this lake is on a certain list I put together a few years ago. Give it a try and let us know.

. . . Update . . . Big cisco dieoffs on a bunch of lakes in the area could mean one of two things. Either it'll mean great open water fishing as walleyes are forced to hunt for available cisoces, or real poor fishing if walleyes switch to other forage options.

Yesterday appeared to indicate an improving bite-- we boated three 25 to 28-inch walleyes and one 30-inch pike. Every fish fell to a J-13 Rapala (jointed floater) in the rainbow trout pattern. Lots of surface "flippers." Tonight will give us a little better idea what's going on out there. We'll talk again soon!

-a friend called Toad

[Northlander]

Toad we do a lot of this type of fishing on the south shore of lake superior. Recently it worked on Northern Lights Lake. As you have stated I believe any body of water with a population of suspending baitfish can be fished very well in this manner. Best thing is you cover a lot of ground and get to get the dust off of a lot of those stickbaits you dont always get to use too often.
If ya ever want to come try Lake Superior just get a hold of me on the Duluth Forum.
Good Fishin everyone in the Brainerd area!

[Toad]

Hi Northlander,

Man, you dug deep to resurrect this topic! 2001.

Be interested to hear more about your Lake Superior pattern. Are we talking about a smelt-based bite, or a cisco-based bite? I know that cisco populations in Superior and most other Great Lakes had nearly disappeared, due to pollution and invasive specie introduction, going back many decades. But I'd heard from biologists that perhaps cisco numbers have been expanding again recently. Just sort of a topic of interest for me, since this baitfish acts as a key indicator for water quality. Thanks!

-a friend,
Cory Schmidt

[Big Julie]

I've been interested in this pattern for years also...
I'll just have to go out and try it seriously.
I have some correlating observations that are now coming together based on what you folks are bringing together.
Years ago, fishing on White Earth, we were on an off shore hump (down in the s.e. corner of the lake is a bay-and a 20' hump).
Anyway, we found some rather aggressive fish ('eyes) that were biting on redtails. As the evening progressed, the eyes were jumping (out of the water) all over the place. I had never experienced that before and wished I was a more versatile angler to have some raps or something along.
It was a gas.
I do not recall seeing any smaller fish (ciscoes) surfacing.
I have seen the swarms of baitfish numerous times and always look for baitfish and fish together as a potential goldmine.
Sunday I caught a 25 and 28 eye on a fast rising deep hump in 33-40'.
When I recuscitated the 28 and let it go it rolled onto its back and I got real scared.
I backed up to it and touuched it and off it went. Life is good.
Over the past few weeks, I have caught around 6 smallies; 1-16, the rest between 17 & 19. All still growin to be sumo's for all.
Glad I had new line. 6# 'P'
My biggest smallie last year was 21! :-)
My goal now is to try the 'Toad' pattern with something to get more off the bottom, or troll raps.
I just know there is a big eye, slimer, or smallie with my name on it.
Thanks for the sharing.
Big Julie.

[stoneeyes317]

Toad:

I have been reading through your posts on open water trolling with interest ever since coming back from my annual trip up to Ottertail county last year. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind. First, I am fortunate enough to fish Star lake every year about this time; is this a lake you would expect open water trolling to work on? If so, I have noted that you have in past posts named the crankbaits you were trolling with, but my question is this: is there a definite depth zone I should be targeting, or are you chosing plugs based on the depth you are noting the walleyes on your graph?? I think I'm going to need to know this so I can justify a last trip to Cabelas before we leave for the lake on Sat.

eyes317

[Toad]

So you mean that it's actually necessary to have a reason for going to Cabela's? I always just sort of figured, why fight it if my truck always seems to steer off the highway there.

Star Lake. Let's see . . . is it the Star Lake up near Ideal Corners? If so then the answer is "yes." On most lakes I've fished, your primary target depths run from just beneath the surface down to as much as 30, 35 feet of water. If baitfish pods are dense, or your LCG unit lacks sufficient pixel separation, you may not mark any distinct big arcs at all.

You really want to determine the depth of the thermocline (on a good sonar, it'll show in the evening as the densest band of dark "clutter"-- typically 25 to 35 feet down-- in the water column.) From here, work from the very upper range of this layer and up toward the surface.

On a new lake, of if I haven't been on it in awhile, ideally we'll traverse three depth swaths (generally): 25' to 30', 14' to 20' and 5' to 10'.

So here's the bare minimums of what you'll need on your Cabela's list. (Print out this list and show it to your wife. This is important. Also note, I left out colors, as one could reasonably interpret this list to mean "this many" in each color.)
(1) Deep divers: at least 7 deep Smithwick Rogues (they often break in two when a big fish hits ), 3 to 6 Deep Thundersticks, maybe 4 more deep Reef Runners and no less than 2-dozen #9 Shad Raps. Oh yea, and throw in a token half dozen of the new deep Tail Dancers.

(2) Middepth divers (essential): for sure 8 to 10 of Rebel's newly introduced Spoobill Minnow, at least that many #7 Shad Raps and #7 Tail Dancers, a bunch of Reef Runner's deep Little Rippers, and the hottest things going, two of everything in Salmo's line (no more than 50 lures).

(3) Shallow divers: it goes without saying that you need three each of every size Rapala Minnow ever made, plus backups, and nearly that many Jointed Raps, Husky Jerks, and #5 Shad Raps times 6.

(4) Big Fish Baits (more critical than middepth divers): no fewer than 12 Husky Cisco Kids (wait til they go on closeout, then they're only $8 apiece.), and to make things simpler for your wife to understand, two and a half times that many of each of the following-- Buchertail Depth Raiders, Mainia Jakes, Swimm Whizzes and Magnum Rapalas.

There. That was fun, wasn't it? Next time, we talk rods, reels, line, nets, rod holders, planer boards, side-scanning sonar, kicker motors, and finally, new boats. Sorry that you'll have to swap the nice cozy resort cabin for a potatoe sack in the bed of your pickup.

-a friend,
Cory

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-24-2004).]

[stoneeyes317]

Toad:

Oh Boy, now you've done it!! My wife said, and I quote, "Tell him he's a menace!"

When I showed her your list, she first said "Is he serious?". Then, after some thought, she said O.K. to my purchasing everything, as long as she got to spend $$ dollar for dollar on perennials. We don't have enough lawn for that (nor do I have that much tackle box space), so I guess I'll have to be "somewhat" selective...

Just one more question, for now: Where's Ideal Corners, and does it have anything to do with getting Bent in Dent??

Thanks for the reply...

eyes317

[Guest]

LOL...Toad=Menace....thats a good one! He's been a drain on my pocketbook ever since I met the guy!!

Big Julie,
You jolted a memory that was tucked away back in the cobwebs of my empty head...lol

Back in the day...lol...like 1990...I fished a small lake up by Bemidji. Small, but very deep. Towards evening, fish started to surface out over the deep water. Thinking these fish were either crappie or gills suspended, I took out my fly rod with a popper and went after them.

Yep, those fish that were surfacing were walleye. I ended up catching 3 or 4 nice ones on a stinking POPPER!! I never went back to that lake and I have never tried reproducing this fluke (or was it?) again.

P.S. Stone,
Can't believe you got your wife to agree to letting you purchase Toad's list of "esentials"!!...What's your secret man?! Please share with your fellow men!!...LOL

[This message has been edited by Tom Herman (edited 08-25-2004).]

[Swede in Elmo]

Stoneeyes,

#5 Shads work at night on Star this time of year. I would think the water temps being down would help too. 7 to 15 feet, you'll have to experiment with color to see what is working. Let me know how you do, I'll be up for September full moon.

[Jim W]

Toad,

I was just wondering how the Pelagic scene has transpired this year, popped open the forum to
ask and bang, the old thread is still alive!!

Re-reading: I often find myself revisiting this thread in my mind as I boat across the expansive Lake Pepin. However, not real deep(except for a few areas) there has to be walleye/ pike etc. following pods of food outside of just the shore line!

I guess time will tell and If I can pull myself away from the shoreline structure to explore!!!

You've got mail!

Have fun up there!

Jim

[stoneeyes317]

Duh!!

Sorry Toad, I just reread my first post here and realized I didn't make it very clear which Star Lake I was inquiring about. I'm going to be fishing just west of Dent, MN. and just south of Lake Lida...

Swede: Thanks for the Rapala info. Question though: 7 to 15 feet, is that the water depth, and if so am I running these Raps over the weeds (I only ask because I've found weeds out to about 13-14 feet)?? Thanks again, and you can bet I will post when we get back...

Tom:

Sorry to break it to you, but if you reread my 2nd post, I will not be purchasing all of Toad's list. My wife is a very understanding woman when it comes to my fishing, but she's the one with the Cabela's Visa, so she sees everything I buy, and she is more obsessed with plants than I am about fishing (can this be possible??)

The only way I've been able to get the things I have today is that I've been fishing since before we met, but she's just started getting into planting...

eyes317