Strib - Sportmen's Show on Collission Course with DNR

[Getanet]

Interesting article in today's Strib about Steve Porter being fined for hauling his deer to the Sportsmen's Show due to the current ban on transporting farmed deer. The DNR also informed the Sportsmen's Show it will have illegal deer at the show if it allows Porter to exhibit them.  My personal belief is if the Sportmen's Show is really designed for sportsmen, that means following conservation laws, whether you agree with them or not - and shouldn't allow the deer to be displayed.

 

I know Porter is a bit of a lightening rod when it comes to CWD. I would be interested in other's take on what the Sportsmen Show should or shouldn't do in this situation - and if you feel strongly enough to have it impact whether you will attend the event or not. I personally wasn't planning to attend anyway.

http://www.startribune.com/sportmen-s-show-on-collision-course-with-dnr-over-trophy-buck-exhibit/566795792/

 

[leech~~]

Their in a trailer. Are they going to come in contact with other live Deer at the show? 

[delcecchi]

Well, I personally believe all deer farms should be shut down and the animals on them euthanized.   There have been too many incidents of them spreading CWD in Minnesota, and the Agriculture Department that "regulates" them has show an inability to properly supervise Deer and Elk farms in MN.     

[Getanet]

33 minutes ago, leech~~ said:

Their in a trailer. Are they going to come in contact with other live Deer at the show? 

 

According to the article the deer will be in the trailer the entire time. Also according to the article, the DNR  didn't make exceptions to the ban on moving deer from farms - and warned Porter ahead of time he'd be charged if he did.

 

While I don't like deer farming and realize Porter has a long running feud with the DNR, I understand where Porter s coming from on this issue. It's more interesting to debate what people think the Sportsmen's Show should do.

[Rick]

5 hours ago, leech~~ said:

Their in a trailer. Are they going to come in contact with other live Deer at the show? 

Have you ever heard of accidents?

 

How about other Deer farmers or outdoors folks who come in contact with pathogens and spread it wherever. 

 

I'm not advocating either way as I don't have enough information. Just throwing out items to possibly consider.

[creepworm]

The dude now has a go fund me set up to "Save his farm". Good Grief

[leech~~]

34 minutes ago, Rick said:

Have you ever heard of accidents?

 

How about other Deer farmers or outdoors folks who come in contact with pathogens and spread it wherever. 

 

I'm not advocating either way as I don't have enough information. Just throwing out items to possibly consider.

 

Actually, I don't care for the Deer freaks they over breed.  I think if their going to allow Deer farms they should have a dbl fence containment around them much like a prison and electrify the second one to fry the som-batchs if the get by the first strand! 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by leech~~

[eyeguy 54]

Trophy pets

[Bigfatbert]

This temporary ban by no means is solely targeting this individual , the ban exists and like anything else charging this individual is very much justified at this point imo. It’s just life , not everyone agrees or likes set laws for many different reasons , but we all must suck it up and either follow the law or get charged for the failure to do such , easy as that .  I do respect his right to fight his charge in court as I am all for peoples rights in this country , but the ban does say no transporting and he obviously did indeed transport , where is his argument ? Also I do respect his opinion on the basis of this ban and it’s enactment .

A heads up to the offender here is that I would think that once he has reached his destination of this show that his return trip home with Mr Heart Attack would also constitute another ticket for the very same offense as it will then be a new day , new travel and thus new ticket , and that this would not fall into the category of that one cant get charged for the same offense twice , so maybe you will have two tickets to fight in court .

 

I do question the Mn Board Of Animal Health for not using recommendations to them to carry out this ban through their agency as I would think the already known knowledge of issues with captive deer and elk and the possible spreading of this disease should be on their radar and the enacting of such a temporary ban to help get this CWD situation that does exist figured out. I am curious about if the Governor’s of this agency’s need a unanimous yay or nay , i personally don’t know that answer , but it makes me wonder about cronyism between the agency and the deer and elk farmers , nothing surprises me , and it’s just a opinion I have . 

I also believe the show should not allow illegally transported attractions at their festivity’s , I will not be attending this show , but it’s not because this issue .

 

I also must say that my opinion with these farms is that they should be shut down .

 

Ok , there  ya go , have at it people’s !

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Bigfatbert
Spelling error

[delcecchi]

Bravo.     We need to get folks together on this.  There is no reason that deer farms should be allowed to exist given the examples we have of their disregard for the rules and for the safety of the wild deer in Minnesota.   

[IceHawk]

I have to agree with most so far on this debate. We have enough trouble going on with CWD already why risk anymore chances of exposure. If we as hunters don't get a handle on this outbreak and the  deer farms in general and get some laws in place its scary what we may be faceing  in a couple more years. I own a piece up in Pine river that I normally hunt but being it was in a CWD area this year I opted to not hunt it chooseing to hunt one of my other parcels  locally because of the hassle involved if harvesting a deer. Hopefully things improve in the future because bites paying my taxes on it just to hang out. I have seen Porters big bucks couple times at sportshows. For his sake  I know where he's comeing from also. Its a money making business for him. If I remember right. He charges like $20 for people to get there pic with the animals. They are defiantely something to see freaks of nature as far as whitetails  and are in a trailer but why take the risks. On another aspect does anybody know if Whitcombs deer farm is still in business off 169 between Princeton Milaca? Was working in the area this fall and thought it looked closed up. 

[Paradice]

I hope the DNR wins this.  All farmers need to be held accountable for their impacts on the wildlife, water, and people.  Glyphosate in food, algae blooms in lakes, erosion, insecticide buildup in soils, nitrogen in groundwater, drugs in meat, carbon emissions, colony collapse disorder, etc.  

[DonkeyHodey]

22 hours ago, delcecchi said:

There have been too many incidents of them spreading CWD in Minnesota

Suspected.  Not "proven."  Scientific proof is a different animal.  Science is littered with cases where a suspected cause is exonerated in the end. 

 

I tend to be a little skeptical because, in my opinion, this is way to similar to another "suspected" problem:  AIS.  (and the flimsy "evidence" supporting the current massive public campaign reguarding cleaning/draining/disposing etc...  Don't get me wrong, I follow the guidelines--it's no great harm for me to pull my plug, pitch my minnows and pick off weeds.  However, I'm just waiting for more expensive, time-intensive regulations to be passed down to lake-utilizers like the current "recommendations" reguarding "high pressure wash" and cleaning with "very hot water."  (which has NO evidence supporting it other than inferential--See DNR guidelines.)

(https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/preventspread_watercraft.html)

 

But anyways, back to deer farms:  I have no love for the deer farms.  I think they're rather pointless, personally...  However, I get a little concerned when I see flippant comments about passing laws to euthanize a citizen's herd or tell them what they can or can't do on their land... (within the law, of course; I agree with Paradice that "All farmers need to be held accountable for their impacts on the wildlife, water, and people"   However, again, to say CWD is "caused" or "spread" by deer farms isn't supported by evidence...  (granted, It might be.  ...but what if it's not?))

[Bigfatbert]

It’s already a fact that it can be spread from deer to deer.

[Getanet]

12 minutes ago, DonkeyHodey said:

Suspected.  Not "proven."  Scientific proof is a different animal.  Science is littered with cases where a suspected cause is exonerated in the end. 

 

I tend to be a little skeptical because, in my opinion, this is way to similar to another "suspected" problem:  AIS.  (and the flimsy "evidence" supporting the current massive public campaign reguarding cleaning/draining/disposing etc...  Don't get me wrong, I follow the guidelines--it's no great harm for me to pull my plug, pitch my minnows and pick off weeds.  However, I'm just waiting for more expensive, time-intensive regulations to be passed down to lake-utilizers like the current "recommendations" reguarding "high pressure wash" and cleaning with "very hot water."  (which has NO evidence supporting it other than inferential--See DNR guidelines.)

(https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/preventspread_watercraft.html)

 

But anyways, back to deer farms:  I have no love for the deer farms.  I think they're rather pointless, personally...  However, I get a little concerned when I see flippant comments about passing laws to euthanize a citizen's herd or tell them what they can or can't do on their land... (within the law, of course; I agree with Paradice that "All farmers need to be held accountable for their impacts on the wildlife, water, and people"   However, again, to say CWD is "caused" or "spread" by deer farms isn't supported by evidence...  (granted, It might be.  ...but what if it's not?))

 

As far as I know every case of CWD so far in MN has been in close proximity - if not actually attributed - to a deer farm.  Has there been one that hasn't? 

 

[gimruis]

I've seen these deer at the exact show that started today - the Sportsman's Show.  I don't go every year and I don't intend to go there this year, but what is so impressive about a freak made in a pen?  If you go to the zoo and see an abnormally larger elephant than any that exist in the wild, are you that impressed?  I'm not.  So it was given some extra hormones and kept out of harm's way and leads a less stressful life so it could have bigger antlers.  Still not impressed.

 

Obviously the CWD and the deer farms are a controversial issue now.  If someone wants to have a deer farm AND obey the law, that's fine.  Its really no different than having any other type of farm.  Now maybe the laws are too weak or lax than they should be and that's why we have CWD in certain areas, but the DNR needs to then change the law or make it more restrictive.  In this case, if the law says its illegal to transport deer, then in my opinion, its a violation.  If Porter wants to fight it, that's his own personal decision.  It's no different than someone else receiving a citation and then trying to fight it.

Edited January 9, 2020 by gimruis

[DonkeyHodey]

1 hour ago, Getanet said:

 

As far as I know every case of CWD so far in MN has been in close proximity - if not actually attributed - to a deer farm.  Has there been one that hasn't? 

 

True.  However, close proximity doesn't establish cause/effect. 

There's enough deer farms within the roaming radius of most MN deer to practically make it impossible that a case could be found in Minnesota that isn't "in close proximity" unless it's in the boundary waters...

 

2 hours ago, Bigfatbert said:

It’s already a fact that it can be spread from deer to deer.

?fact.  hmmmmm...  How was that proven?  What is the mechanism?  (In the case of CWD, most of what we "know" is still based on models and particularly an assumption that this must be related to other prion based diseases like CJD, "mad cow", or Kuru...)

It frightens me that people are convinced about "facts" related to CWD.  It is absolutely not at that level yet...

 

1.)  They don't know definitively what causes CWD.--scientists and researchers are still simply speculating (albeit based on reasonable models).  Once CWD is found in a herd, it certainly seems likely that it could be a contagious thing, but again, if you can't identify the cause, you are still speculating on ?transmission.  With CWD is believeed that a prion is causing the condition (but again, it's not "proven" that the prion is the cause as opposed to an abnormal effect from whatever the underlying mechanism is.  As a comparison, when I have a cold, "snot" comes from my nose.  The snot isn't the cause of the cold, it's only an effect of a virus.  The prions observed in CWD (and which are far from universally found in specimens with CWD) may be a similar effect, not a cause...)  

2.)  Are you (and scientists) so certain the increased frequency of a disease in an isolated population establishes a CLEAR cause/effect that there is a clear contagion?  What about a genetic susceptibility in a limited and isolated breeding stock?  What about a pollutant in the micro-environment?  I'm not saying these are the cause; I'm simply highlighting that there's a great deal still unknown.  The point that much about CWD remains unknown one thing that is a fact.

 

I have confidence they'll have a clearer idea of some of this related to CWD in the next 10 years, but as a comparison, "mad cow" has been studied for ~30 years and still a high level of uncertainty remains...

All that said, are you really sure it's a good thing to impose restrictions/banning/etc... on a deer farm owner?--it's a bit of a dangerous "justice" slippery slope, isn't it?

[Getanet]

11 minutes ago, DonkeyHodey said:

True.  However, close proximity doesn't establish cause/effect. 

There's enough deer farms within the roaming radius of most MN deer to practically make it impossible that a case could be found in Minnesota that isn't "in close proximity" unless it's in the boundary waters...

 

?fact.  hmmmmm...  How was that proven?  What is the mechanism?  (In the case of CWD, most of what we "know" is still based on models and particularly an assumption that this must be related to other prion based diseases like CJD, "mad cow", or Kuru...)

It frightens me that people are convinced about "facts" related to CWD.  It is absolutely not at that level yet...

 

1.)  They don't know definitively what causes CWD.--scientists and researchers are still simply speculating (albeit based on reasonable models).  Once CWD is found in a herd, it certainly seems likely that it could be a contagious thing, but again, if you can't identify the cause, you are still speculating on ?transmission.  With CWD is believeed that a prion is causing the condition (but again, it's not "proven" that the prion is the cause as opposed to an abnormal effect from whatever the underlying mechanism is.  As a comparison, when I have a cold, "snot" comes from my nose.  The snot isn't the cause of the cold, it's only an effect of a virus.  The prions observed in CWD (and which are far from universally found in specimens with CWD) may be a similar effect, not a cause...)  

2.)  Are you (and scientists) so certain the increased frequency of a disease in an isolated population establishes a CLEAR cause/effect that there is a clear contagion?  What about a genetic susceptibility in a limited and isolated breeding stock?  What about a pollutant in the micro-environment?  I'm not saying these are the cause; I'm simply highlighting that there's a great deal still unknown.  The point that much about CWD remains unknown one thing that is a fact.

 

I have confidence they'll have a clearer idea of some of this related to CWD in the next 10 years, but as a comparison, "mad cow" has been studied for ~30 years and still a high level of uncertainty remains...

All that said, are you really sure it's a good thing to impose restrictions/banning/etc... on a deer farm owner?--it's a bit of a dangerous "justice" slippery slope, isn't it?

 

If 100% certainty is the litmus test we're going to use to make decisions, not much would ever get accomplished. As it it, what is certain is CWD is being found in more places in MN, the DNR currently has a ban on transporting farmed deer, Porter knowingly transported them anyway, and the Sportsmen's Show was informed of the issue. I haven't heard more about it, nor been to the show, so I'm assuming the deer are currently on display.

[DonkeyHodey]

21 minutes ago, Getanet said:

 

If 100% certainty is the litmus test we're going to use to make decisions, not much would ever get accomplished.

Agreed.  BUT, My point is we're not even at 80%...  (some would argue we're quite a bit less than 50% certain...) 

 

Let me be frank:  People who don't own deer farms and think deer farms are stupid are probably perfectly comfortable with shutting down another person's deer farm when they are < 50% confident--Guilty until proven innocent, right?   It's easy to limit another as long as it doesn't affect me... (or even easier if I somehow perceive it benefits me (as is the case for many deer hunters who want to blame deer farms for CWD))

But that's really not justice, is it...

 

How certain do you have to be to justify limiting another's right to a livelihood or right to use their property as consistent with a right to life/liberty/pursuit of happiness?

[Bigfatbert]

1 hour ago, DonkeyHodey said:

As a comparison, when I have a cold, "snot" comes from my nose.  The snot isn't the cause of the cold, it's only an effect of a virus. 

Ur snot that comes from your nose is contagious with that said virus.

[gimruis]

21 hours ago, IceHawk said:

On another aspect does anybody know if Whitcombs deer farm is still in business off 169 between Princeton Milaca? Was working in the area this fall and thought it looked closed up. 

 

I routinely drove past this business during the month of December when I went pheasant hunting and I thought the same thing.  Although, I did see the deer in the pen several times so maybe that portion of the business is still operating?

[Getanet]

1 hour ago, DonkeyHodey said:

Agreed.  BUT, My point is we're not even at 80%...  (some would argue we're quite a bit less than 50% certain...) 

 

Let me be frank:  People who don't own deer farms and think deer farms are stupid are probably perfectly comfortable with shutting down another person's deer farm when they are < 50% confident--Guilty until proven innocent, right?   It's easy to limit another as long as it doesn't affect me... (or even easier if I somehow perceive it benefits me (as is the case for many deer hunters who want to blame deer farms for CWD))

But that's really not justice, is it...

 

How certain do you have to be to justify limiting another's right to a livelihood or right to use their property as consistent with a right to life/liberty/pursuit of happiness?

 

I guess if you want to twist the question around, how uncertain do you need to be that deer farms aren't a primary source of spreading a deadly disease before putting some further restrictions on them? From what I can tell, the rules and oversight of deer farms have been pretty lax.

 

I thought this was a pretty good article that at least gave both sides of the argument a chance to make their case:

https://www.brainerddispatch.com/sports/outdoors/4793448-Down-on-the-deer-farm-chronic-wasting-disease-is-critical-issue

 

[delcecchi]

The Center for Disease Control of the US Government says CWD is caused by prions and is contagious.   The experience of several western states and Wisconsin also show that it is contagious.    The outbreak in Pine Island MN came from elk on the Elk Run farm.  Wild deer were allowed to interact and feed with elk which turned out to be infected with CWD.   Other outbreaks of CWD are near deer farms with CWD infected animals.   Not all deer farms have CWD in their herds, but some do, especially those breeding "trophy" either for sale or for high fence hunting operations.   The "trophy" guys are much more likely to be importing animals from other states harboring CWD.   

 

Deer farms are supervised by the MN department of Agriculture which seems to rely a lot on self reporting and the integrity of the farmer.    This has not turned out to be good enough.    Deer farms have turned out to be a clear and present danger to the wild deer and to deer hunting and those that make a living from deer hunters.   

 

Deer farms need to be shut down until the regulation and management are reformed in such a way as minimize the risk of introducing CWD into the wild is eliminated or at least reduced to a very small probability.   

 

Deer farmers gave up the right to argue about freedom and property when they caused or allowed CWD to be introduced into the wild multiple times, in spite of the evidence from other states and Elk Run.

 

And Rick, I am ashamed of you for giving this denier a thumbs up.    

[Rick]

3 hours ago, delcecchi said:

The Center for Disease Control of the US Government says CWD is caused by prions and is contagious.   The experience of several western states and Wisconsin also show that it is contagious.    The outbreak in Pine Island MN came from elk on the Elk Run farm.  Wild deer were allowed to interact and feed with elk which turned out to be infected with CWD.   Other outbreaks of CWD are near deer farms with CWD infected animals.   Not all deer farms have CWD in their herds, but some do, especially those breeding "trophy" either for sale or for high fence hunting operations.   The "trophy" guys are much more likely to be importing animals from other states harboring CWD.   

 

Deer farms are supervised by the MN department of Agriculture which seems to rely a lot on self reporting and the integrity of the farmer.    This has not turned out to be good enough.    Deer farms have turned out to be a clear and present danger to the wild deer and to deer hunting and those that make a living from deer hunters.   

 

Deer farms need to be shut down until the regulation and management are reformed in such a way as minimize the risk of introducing CWD into the wild is eliminated or at least reduced to a very small probability.   

 

Deer farmers gave up the right to argue about freedom and property when they caused or allowed CWD to be introduced into the wild multiple times, in spite of the evidence from other states and Elk Run.

 

And Rick, I am ashamed of you for giving this denier a thumbs up.    

 

I am now ashamed of you for your attack on free speech Del. I have no horse in this race and my thumbs up was for Donkey's stance to think about who's ox is being gored. The thumbs up was not for allowing CWD to be spread. What makes you think your opinion is any better than the deer farmers with respect to their livlihood?

 

It is no better just with a different self interest. It may be more popular because there are far fewer deer farmers than there are deer hunters. It still doesn't make your belief any better, just more popular.

 

It's obvious to me the deer farmers are already in deep and getting in deeper when they go against popular belief.

 

Just be careful when you are goring someone else's ox Del!. Yours could be next and no one to stand beside you pointing that out.

 

Can you tell I'm a little tired of outrage culture.

[delcecchi]

3 hours ago, Rick said:

 

I am now ashamed of you for your attack on free speech Del. I have no horse in this race and my thumbs up was for Donkey's stance to think about who's ox is being gored. The thumbs up was not for allowing CWD to be spread. What makes you think your opinion is any better than the deer farmers with respect to their livlihood?

 

It is no better just with a different self interest. It may be more popular because there are far fewer deer farmers than there are deer hunters. It still doesn't make your belief any better, just more popular.

 

It's obvious to me the deer farmers are already in deep and getting in deeper when they go against popular belief.

 

Just be careful when you are goring someone else's ox Del!. Yours could be next and no one to stand beside you pointing that out.

 

Can you tell I'm a little tired of outrage culture.

I'm outraged by people who are careless enough to bring an unstoppable fatal disease into our deer herd for the sake of money.   It's all about the Benjamins baby.

 

And free speech includes both sides.  I didn't ask you to remove his post or ban him.  I thought giving a thumbs up was inappropriate if you don't agree with him.   You don't, do you?

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by delcecchi

[Rick]

1 hour ago, delcecchi said:

I'm outraged by people who are careless enough to bring an unstoppable fatal disease into our deer herd for the sake of money.   It's all about the Benjamins baby.

 

And free speech includes both sides.  I didn't ask you to remove his post or ban him.  I thought giving a thumbs up was inappropriate if you don't agree with him.   You don't, do you?

 

 

I don't know. I don't have enough information. You're entitled to your opinion and frankly I would have given the thoughtful part of your response a thumbs up. You framed it powerfully. Well done.

 

You want to throw in a personal attack, it's not the way we do things here. You like to use shaming tactics Del. Your language on me and your use of the words "it's all about the benjamins" demonstrates your willingness to cast your opinions, with intent to shame, around hoping they look like facts.

 

 

[DonkeyHodey]

15 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Deer farmers gave up the right to argue about freedom and property when they caused or allowed CWD to be introduced into the wild multiple times

 

And Rick, I am ashamed of you for giving this denier a thumbs up.    

1.)  I'm grateful that's not how "rights" work in this country.

2.)  denier?  I'd prefer to labelled a "questioner."  I think it's more accurate.  When we stop asking questions, we stop getting answers.

I see you have zero questions about CWD and the action plan is clear.  I (and many others studying the issue) still have questions that I'd like settled before pushing forward with an action plan.

 

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

https://www.outdoornews.com/2018/12/17/another-school-of-thought-about-what-causes-chronic-wasting-disease-in-deer/

I'm not saying this is the Truth.  This may, in fact, be complete Bunkus.   I am suggesting this point only supports the fact that science remains unsettled and that CWD is complex

If a question arises on the cause, how can we jump to conclusions on downstream issues like transmission or prevention, etc...?

Cause is really paramount:  to compare, when the "cause" of AIDS was unknown in the 80's "conclusions" like "probable transmission" through handshaking, being breathed on, toilet seats or mosquitos were drawn by scientists that "knew" and which we now more clearly understand are not modes of transmisssion… 

 

16 hours ago, Bigfatbert said:

Ur snot that comes from your nose is contagious with that said virus.

usually.  not always.  Often you still produce snot as part of the healing process long after you've stopped shedding virus.  Allergies make rather copious snot with no infectious particles...

 

15 hours ago, Getanet said:

 

I guess if you want to twist the question around, how uncertain do you need to be that deer farms aren't a primary source of spreading a deadly disease before putting some further restrictions on them? From what I can tell, the rules and oversight of deer farms have been pretty lax.

Good question.  Not sure I can put a number on it but I'd prefer to see better data before drawing conclusions.   (There's a general feeling I have that pre-conceived conclusions are being arrived at reguardless of what the research/science/evidence shows or will show...)

If rules/oversight have been lax (I think they have), then a better approach isn't to shut down all deer farms, but to question:   why are rules that are set up neither being followed or selectively enforced?

[delcecchi]

18 minutes ago, DonkeyHodey said:

I see you have zero questions about CWD and the action plan is clear.  I (and many others studying the issue) still have questions that I'd like settled before pushing forward with an action plan.

That's the sort of position taken by landowners in Dane county in Wisconsin.  You owe it to yourself to go read about how CWD came to several counties there, the DNR's lack of action, and the result of several counties with CWD infection rates up to 50%.   

You might also read the Center for Disease Control of the Federal Government about CWD.    

 

22 minutes ago, DonkeyHodey said:

when the "cause" of AIDS was unknown in the 80's "conclusions" like "probable transmission" through handshaking, being breathed on, toilet seats or mosquitos were drawn by scientists that "knew" and which we now more clearly understand are not modes of transmisssion… 

Scientists never actually said those things about the means of transmission.  Ignorant members of the public and politicians said those things.   Yes, it took a few years to figure out the cause of all those folks suddenly getting sick and dying.   Yet you will still find a few, although it seems fewer every year, that will say HIV isn't the cause of AIDS.  Here is a link summarizing the situation from 1995.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news/a-controversy-that-will-not-die-the-role-of-hiv-in-causing-aids-58588

 

I think there are deer hunters and deer farmers who don't like the thought that CWD is caused by a prion, because the only known way to stop it involves killing deer, both farmed and wild, and lots of them.  As many as possible in the infected area.   

And I think the guy in the article in Outdoor news is totally wrong.  His Wikipedia pages says "Other scientists have so far been unable to duplicate his results, casting doubt on this hypothesis." and provides links to two papers about failed replication experiments.   

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6348215

https://jcm.asm.org/content/44/1/91.full

 

Here is an article that gives a decent summary of evidence 

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/article/prion-hypothesis-cwd-examination-evidence

40 minutes ago, DonkeyHodey said:

If rules/oversight have been lax (I think they have), then a better approach isn't to shut down all deer farms, but to question:   why are rules that are set up neither being followed or selectively enforced?

 

As I said, it's all about the Benjamins, and human nature.    Deer farmers, are not going to do anything more than the state makes them do, at least a fair number of them.   Look at the guy with the piles of dead CWD infected deer and still wouldn't kill his herd until the feds finally paid him.   And the supervising agency is Ag guys who really didn't have any particular knowledge of the problem and its seriousness.   If it would have been a chicken virus, or if it was Mad Cow maybe.  But deer farms?    They made some rules, most likely with input from deer farmers, and then failed to even enforce them.   Import a bunch of deer from Texas to breed stock for your high fence operation?   Just fill out some paper work.  If you don't you will be fined a few hundred bucks.

 

Please, go read the Cornell and CDC articles.     The LSU guy is selling a bill of goods to deer hunters just like the "consultant" did in Wisconsin.  I urge you to also go look at the history of CWD in Wisconsin.    

 

In the mean time we need to shut down the sources of infection which are deer farms.   They, as an industry, have demonstrated that they are unable or unwilling to prevent contact between their deer and our deer in the wild.    

 

It is possible that CWD can still be eliminated in Minnesota.  Maybe.   If we are able to prevent additional incidents of transmission  from  domestic to wild.   

 

[delcecchi]

9 hours ago, Rick said:

d your use of the words "it's all about the benjamins"

That was not aimed at you but at the deer farmers and deniers.  I apologize for my lack of clarity.    I am sorry that I wrote something that could be interpreted that way, it was not my intent.     

[DonkeyHodey]

17 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

You owe it to yourself to go read about how CWD came to several counties there, the DNR's lack of action, and the result of several counties with CWD infection rates up to 50%.   

 

And I think the guy in the article in Outdoor news is totally wrong.  ...The LSU guy is selling a bill of goods to deer hunters just like the "consultant" did in Wisconsin.

 

In the mean time we need to shut down the sources of infection which are deer farms. 

 

1.)  Read.  ?what.  (and I'm not asking for specifics.  I'm simply saying this rhetorically:   if you believe there is ANY article/account/etc... that is "truth" or "all the facts" on the issue related to CWD, I will continue to counter that there is not a single, unified, "agreed-upon" Truth in this area of CWD.)

Lack of Action is easy to judge in hindsight.  "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" abound. 

The counter-point is that History is loaded with examples where action was taken (without all the facts or based on limited information) which led to a wrong course of action or outcome...

 

2.)  Agreed.  I think a lot of people think he's wrong--I'm not advancing that he's got the "Truth".  However, it highlights uncertainty:  I take a position that if uncertainty exists perhaps the action course shouldn't be so certain. 

I believe uncertainty in this area does exist, you don't. 

 

3.)  You are convinced.  This is the truth--This is non-negotiable.  I'm not.  

I appreciate your passion.  I believe we have the common ground in that both you and I are passionate about our deer/resources/wildlife and desire to protect them.  I enjoy your input, and thank you.  Peace to you, my friend.