Mdha Crossbow vote

[fins_n'_feathers]

It would be nice if the DNR would send out a survey to people that hunted deer to see what they think. I think the results would be overwhelming in favor of letting crossbows being allowed during archery season. I don't think it would be that hard of a process, they do different waterfowl surveys all the time. It blows my mind that some people think that some fund raising group can take a vote and that's the new standard. That's ridiculous! I hope the DNR sees through their BS and does what bennefits everyone and not just the few. If you feel to crowded in the woods and don't have your own hunting land get farther off the beaten path.

[ANYFISH2]

1 hour ago, fins_n'_feathers said:

To me this is no different than the scope on a muzzle loader issue. Why wouldn't you want someone to make a more ethical kill on an animal? If that draws more people into the outdoor sport of deer hunting that is great. I am all for getting people into the outdoors. For all the people that say this is their "special" time to hunt and the harvest would be to much and "their" season (already ridiculously long) would be cut short is an absolute joke. I would like to see some statistics of how many deer get wounded and die as a result of conventional bow and arrow hunting much like a hooking mortality rate. If your so worried about to many people in the woods ruining "your sacred season" go buy your own hunting land and quit trying to ruin it for everyone! 

Wow, dramatic much?

 

I have always wavered back and forth on this issue.  

The opinions on keeping crossbows out of the archery season(all inclusive) hold merit.  Remember we have 3 seasons for a reason, Archery, firearms, and muzzleloader. The first and 3rd where given to (at the time) hunters willing to take up a challenge with a more difficult weapon.

Both seasons, as stated earlier, are becoming more watered down.  

Archery already has seen the advancements to the compound bow, high let off, 350 fps, ease of tuning.

Muzzies have as well with, pellet charges, in-line rifles, and scopes.

 

Yes we all want people to make good, clean, ethical shots on Deer or any game.  But that is what makes a GOOD ETHICAL HUNTER!  Practice, good choices, practice and practice.  

Archery isn't supposed to be easy.  If one cant practice and make good choices they shouldn't hunt with that tool, period.

 

Crossbows, as allowed now is just fine with me. 

 

[ANYFISH2]

23 minutes ago, fins_n'_feathers said:

I hope the DNR sees through their BS and does what bennefits everyone and not just the few. If you feel to crowded in the woods and don't have your own hunting land get farther off the beaten path.

How, would all inclusive crossbows, benefit everyone?  You can already hunt with them now!

 

The DNR is in charge of managing our resource, they should stay focused on what benefits our resources (deer) with best management practices!

 

I promise, we would see a marginal,at best, increase in new hunters.  There would be a huge shift of "gun" hunters to the crossbow, as well as "bow" hunters. Our harvest and success rate would climb noticeably. Access to properties would tighten even more. The resource is what would be impacted most. More likely just causing more angst amongst hunters, that is not needed.

[fins_n'_feathers]

All I can say is I hope Minnesota gets their act together and catches up with the times not only with big game hunting but with the fisheries too. Hopefully November brings changes across the board.

[monstermoose78]

This what the anti hunters want! To have us divided and fight against ourselves. We need to find common ground and come together as hunters to help each other out. I see this with the split duck season. Putting small game hunters against trappers. It’s time to come together and be strong and united!!!

[ANYFISH2]

I dont think every disagreement is a division of hunters.  We talking about a change of legal means here.  We wont all agree ever.

Believe me, we will all stand together for our right to hunt.

[Wanderer]

7 hours ago, fins_n'_feathers said:

 If you feel to crowded in the woods and don't have your own hunting land get farther off the beaten path.

 

This statement tells me you either own land yourself or hunt someone else’s private property.  Or possibly don’t mind hunting in crowds.

 

There is no “farther off the beaten path” left anymore in MN.  Anything public or loosely controlled private property has people on it already.  There are no secrets anymore.  My handle is still accurate: I wander this state’s public land looking for hidden gems and it’s getting to the point the harder I look, the more likely I’m going to find someone else.

 

”Keeping up with the times” means using more technology.  That’s what this debate is really about.  Technology has taken all the privacy out hunting.  Shoe leather and the amount of time you were willing to use it could reward you years ago.  Not anymore.  Everyone cyber scouts and MN is too accessible with today’s technology and advanced equipment.  

 

If you can get a truck within 20 yards of a waterway, somebody is coming in with a mud motored jon.  If you see a great public ground funnel for deer on your smartphone, you can bet someone else has already been there.  And you can bet that even if you sleep in “your” spot overnight to claim it, there’s a high chance someone will come in and set up by you anyway.

 

You gotta understand, I’m 50 years old and my earliest sporting memories started when I was in my single digit years of life.  I’ve seen an enormous decay in MN hunting accessibly and quality during that time.  People have been taught to be a lot more greedy in hunting to get the best out of it.  More, me, now.  You think I’m being greedy by wanting to keep something the same, something that is already available to everyone who wants to enjoy it.  I’m not.  I’m saying put up or shut up and keep doing what’s easier during the easy season.

[gimruis]

Wanderer, I think there are still some off the beaten path areas of public land in this state.  Head further north.  There are some large federal forests that are open to public hunting and the further you get off an ATV trail, logging road, or other path, the more success you will likely have.  I've seen it with my own eyes.  All the pressure is near the access.  A study was done on this in Pennsylvania on public land and the deer and turkeys simply moved away from the areas of high pressure, but they were still there.

 

Good responses on the cross bow issue.  Its obvious to me that the traditional compound guys don't like cross bows and the gun hunters want to use them.  I do think that legalizing them to the general population it will likely increase the harvest some, but right now the bag limits are managed by zone, regardless of what weapon you're using.  So if you harvest a deer with a cross bow, firearm, or muzzle loader with a scope, who cares?  If you can only shoot one, you can't keep hunting anyways.  Heck in some zones this year it moved up to "intensive" meaning you can legally harvest 3 deer.  I'm no expert but that tells me there is an abundance of deer around in those zones.  Frankly, I'd much rather see them remove the party hunting rule than anything.  People shooting multiple bucks and sharing tags is just nonsense.  They don't allow it in most other states and it should be banned here too.

Edited October 11, 2018 by gimruis

[fins_n'_feathers]

Very well said gimruis. My thoughts exactly. I'm not trying to attack anyone or a group of hunters here, just putting in my 2 cents on the way I feel. That being said as Wander was guessing I do own a very large piece of land in northern Minnesota. On the other hand though, nearly all the people that I work with hunt public land around the area and 90% of the time they kill bigger bucks than our crew hunting private land so I can't see that as an argument. Up here it seems people have really good respect for staying out of other people's areas on public land year after year but maybe that's not the case other places?  

[Wanderer]

Guys, I hear what you’re saying but it’s clear our perspectives are different.

 

I’m not worried about the deer population for the reasons mentioned.  I know there is a lot of public ground out there and I know what it’s like to hunt private.  I’ve been mixing the use of both for many, many years.  It’s a completely different ball game.

 

I’ve literally hunted border to border in this state.  I moved away from the Metro to find and enjoy more time out and about.  I walk further and paddle into places I think I can find those experiences I used to find more at my fingertips.  To imply I don’t work hard enough to get away from the crowds is a flat out misconception of who I am.

 

Every once in a while I find someplace off the trails and access points that looks pretty awesome.  100 percent of the time in the last 5 years especially, someone else is, was, or will be there if it’s truly any good.  When I run out of people I also seem to run out of game.  We are an effective lot when it comes to finding the good stuff.

 

@ fins_n_feathers

 

Good for you and your friends.  But I gather you are all FA hunters, hunting the regular FA season.  Do you allow anyone to archery hunt your private property that doesn’t join your traditional FA deer camp?  Would your friends start hunting their traditional FA deer stands on public ground during the archery season if they could use cross bows?  Please be honest. 

[monstermoose78]

11 hours ago, Wanderer said:

 

This statement tells me you either own land yourself or hunt someone else’s private property.  Or possibly don’t mind hunting in crowds.

 

There is no “farther off the beaten path” left anymore in MN.  Anything public or loosely controlled private property has people on it already.  There are no secrets anymore.  My handle is still accurate: I wander this state’s public land looking for hidden gems and it’s getting to the point the harder I look, the more likely I’m going to find someone else.

Come up to where I deer hunt wanderer.

[fins_n'_feathers]

Wanderer, the group that hunts my land is fairly small and all strictly FA hunters, maybe 6 guys. The group is made up of mostly older guys that have already killed plenty of deer in their life and come up more to relax and maybe go for a walk or sit for a bit if it's nice out. They could care less about bringing meat home. I could never see any of them picking up a bow and arrow or crossbow as that would be wasting valuable time they could be grouse hunting. Myself being younger and in a different position have a very different perspective. I currently don't archery hunt and probably would never take it up as I don't have the patience for that. That being said if I could use a crossbow, something a little more efficient I would take it up for sure. My girlfriend and I love eating venison and if I could get a deer in September it would free up more time for fishing when it is at its best during the late fall. Fishing is my true passion so any time I can free up for that is great. As far as my hunting friends go I'd say about half of them bow hunt. They are a younger group like myself and I'd say the half that bow hunt would instantly trade their bows in for crossbows if it was made legal and out of the other half I'm sure a good majority of them would try hunting with a crossbow. long before this was even an issue we would always talk about how awesome it would be to be able to use a crossbow.

[Scoot]

On 10/10/2018 at 5:49 AM, Wanderer said:

I know well tuned vertical bow shooters have made the 100 yard shots too but I’d wager there are very few who can.

 

I shoot at 100 yards a lot. Imperfect form shows up quickly at that distance. It makes me a better shooter. But no doubt most can't shoot accurately at that distance and I'd never shoot that far at an animal. 

 

That commercial does a big disservice to hunters and deer that will be gut shot from 100 yards. 

 

MM you and I are on the same page I think.  Wanderer- us too. 

[ANYFISH2]

36 minutes ago, fins_n'_feathers said:

 I currently don't archery hunt and probably would never take it up as I don't have the patience for that. That being said if I could use a crossbow, something a little more efficient I would take it up for sure. My girlfriend and I love eating venison and if I could get a deer in September it would free up more time for fishing when it is at its best during the late fall. Fishing is my true passion so any time I can free up for that is great. As far as my hunting friends go I'd say about half of them bow hunt. They are a younger group like myself and I'd say the half that bow hunt would instantly trade their bows in for crossbows if it was made legal and out of the other half I'm sure a good majority of them would try hunting with a crossbow. long before this was even an issue we would always talk about how awesome it would be to be able to use a crossbow.

This is exactly way some of us fear(lack of a better word)all inclusion of crossbows!

Although it has a arrow(bolt) and a string, it just isnt archery!

Archery involves so much more, patience, woodsmanship,and practice. 

Crossbows, are just much easier to hunt with.  Extended range(although I know bolts are bit less stable than arrows), ready to shoot once your settled in and cocked, can use shooting sticks, scopes, faster bolt speed, less movement, and easier to master out of the box.

Why else would so many rifle/slug gun hunter want crossbows? Because they work like a firearm!?

Now I appreciate your wish to use one, these are just my opinions.  I may be wrong, it is why I feel the way I do.  If one wants the longer season, take up a vertical bow and we will all welcome you with open arms!

If They let crossbows in, you can still hunt with me any day(safely assuming your a safe hunter)!

[candiru]

In Wisc.  Crossbow users have a higher success rate than gun hunters.     If use is allowed by everyone during regular archery,  more restrictions maybe needed to compensate.

 

Hunter Success Rate:

Firearms: 17.7%

Archery: 15.8%

Crossbow: 23.7%

 

https://dnr.wi.gov/About/WCC/Documents/spring_hearing/2018/WeaponUseReport_2014-2017.pdf

 

[fins_n'_feathers]

Your numbers look good on paper for your argument but what is left out is the number of hunters that participated in each hunt. Of course a small group that can hunt with a crossbow for nearly four months out of the year are going to have a better success rate than people that can hunt with a rifle for two weeks or however long the FA season is in Wisconsin. I have no idea exactly what the number of people that use a crossbow but I'm sure compared to FA hunters it's a very minuscule number. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by fins_n'_feathers

[candiru]

Starting in 2014 all Wisc.  hunters are allowed to use a crossbow during archery season.    In 2017 more deer were killed with a crossbow than a vertical bow.   https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/outdoors/2018/01/13/hunters-using-crossbows-killed-more-deer-wisconsin-than-crossbow-deer-kill-surpasses-vertical-bow-ki/1016497001/

 

From the WI pdf   in 2014 there were about 162,000 vertical bow hunters and 43,000 crossbow hunters,   By 2017 that became 125,000 vertical bow hunters and 68,000 crossbow hunters.  

 

With more people going to the crossbow with its higher success rate, the harvest will go up.   Will it be enough to cause a drop in the number of antlerless permits?

[fins_n'_feathers]

Interesting read. I think what it all boils down to though is the DNR has x amount of deer that's a safe harvest in each zone. How they get killed doesn't much matter, it's just a number that makes a statistic and that's how they come up with their limits. no doubt a crossbow is a much more efficient weapon than a traditional bow but to say it's to the point it would affect the deer heard is a stretch. I see it no different than comparing someone using grandpas 30-30 compared to someone using a 300 short mag. And you don't see anyone raising questions about that. Weather and predators in any given area have way more of an effect on deer population than how an arrow gets slung at them.

[Wanderer]

13 hours ago, fins_n'_feathers said:

Interesting read. I think what it all boils down to though is the DNR has x amount of deer that's a safe harvest in each zone. How they get killed doesn't much matter, it's just a number that makes a statistic and that's how they come up with their limits. no doubt a crossbow is a much more efficient weapon than a traditional bow but to say it's to the point it would affect the deer heard is a stretch. I see it no different than comparing someone using grandpas 30-30 compared to someone using a 300 short mag. And you don't see anyone raising questions about that. Weather and predators in any given area have way more of an effect on deer population than how an arrow gets slung at them.

 

The point of this debate we’re having is obviously lost on you.  We understand how harvest works and is managed.  This debate is about the continuous inclusion of technology to supplant human effort and skill building.

 

Again, many archers seek out the archery season because they want to hunt when every Tom, Dick, and Harry isn’t out there making noise, stinking up the woods, pushing everything off it’s normal pattern and the big one: competing for the same hunting grounds.  We’re somehow rewarded by putting in more effort to get the lowest success rate of all deer hunting types in the woods.

 

If it’s beyond you to understand that mindset (for anything in life), you’ll never understand this.  We’re clearly a different generation of hunters.  Someday us curmudgeons will all be gone and you and your young able bodied buddies can do what you want - whatever is easiest.  

 

It honestly saddens me that so few younger hunters these days actually appreciate time just spent outdoors.  It’s about results, the kill, the numbers, and that’s it.

 

Debating this further for me is pointless.  Good luck all.

[Tom Sawyer]

3 hours ago, Wanderer said:

Debating this further for me is pointless.  Good luck all.

[gimruis]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:14 AM, Wanderer said:

 

The point of this debate we’re having is obviously lost on you.  We understand how harvest works and is managed.  This debate is about the continuous inclusion of technology to supplant human effort and skill building.

 

Again, many archers seek out the archery season because they want to hunt when every Tom, Dick, and Harry isn’t out there making noise, stinking up the woods, pushing everything off it’s normal pattern and the big one: competing for the same hunting grounds.  We’re somehow rewarded by putting in more effort to get the lowest success rate of all deer hunting types in the woods.

 

If it’s beyond you to understand that mindset (for anything in life), you’ll never understand this.  We’re clearly a different generation of hunters.  Someday us curmudgeons will all be gone and you and your young able bodied buddies can do what you want - whatever is easiest.  

 

It honestly saddens me that so few younger hunters these days actually appreciate time just spent outdoors.  It’s about results, the kill, the numbers, and that’s it.

 

Debating this further for me is pointless.  Good luck all.

 

I'm one of those every Tom, Dick, and Harry's.  And I can tell you with 100% positivity that I'm not out there making noise, stinking up the woods, or pushing everything off its normal pattern.  You just generalized every gun hunter into the same group, including me.  I don't make noise, I cover up my scent, and I don't leave my stand at lunch time to go in and push everything off its normal pattern, Wanderer.  Yes, I know hunters like that too but most of the hunters I know aren't like that.  In fact, very few are.  And I can tell you that there are some idiot archery hunters because I know them.  They sling arrows around at 50 yards trying to down deer without practicing which is completely preposterous.

 

I think what Fins n Feathers is trying to say that technology has advanced our sport to be more efficient.  I do agree that the younger generation is definitely more lazy and less devoted, not only in hunting/fishing but in life generally (that's another topic for another day).  I for one would like to use something more efficient.  If it results in a higher kill rate, better accuracy, and less wounded deer, I'm for it.  If you don't want to use it, then don't.  If you don't want to fish with 10 inch high definition sonar and GPS screens in your boat, then don't.  But just because someone else is using technology to be more efficient doesn't mean its illegal or unethical.  His example of an open sighted 30-30 versus a 300 scoped mag is a great example.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by gimruis

[gueorguiformatting2]

What about this year? Are crossbows admited?

[gimruis]

41 minutes ago, gueorguiformatting2 said:

What about this year? Are crossbows admited?

No.  Only those that are 60 or older can use them during the archery season.  Of if you have a disability permit.

 

Until the MDHA approved it, its very unlikely to have any movement.  The MDHA has a lot of lobbying power.

Edited October 24, 2022 by gimruis

[gueorguiformatting2]

What about this year? Are crossbows admitted? I always wanted to go hunting with a crossbow. In my opinion, it would be fun. It is silent and most important, it has a big distance of shooting the bold with deadly precision. I have trained with my crossbow for weeks in the shooting range, but before hunting with it, I want to be sure that it is not illegal. I know that crossbow hunting is restricted in some States in the United States because it kills the animal longer, and the chance that the animal can escape with a wound is big. You can find more about this on archerytopic.com.

[gimruis]

2 hours ago, gueorguiformatting2 said:

What about this year? Are crossbows admitted?

Nope.  I already stated the rules above in my previous post.  In MN, you cannot use a crossbow during archery season unless you are 60+ years old or have a disability permit.  Wisconsin and Michigan allow the use of a crossbow during archery season by the general public, but not in Minnesota.

 

You can use your crossbow during firearms season if you wanted to.  But IMO you'd be much better off just using a firearm.