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gimruis

Mdha Crossbow vote

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gimruis

Looks like the MDHA recently voted not to endorse the use of a crossbow for the general population during archery season at their annual meeting on Feb 24 in Grand Rapids.  The votes were 65-35 against it.  Last year was a much closer vote 52-48 against.  I know that Michigan and Wisconsin both have allowed it for years.  I think its probably only a matter of time before it happens here in Minnesota, but for now, it will remain the same.  Weigh in and share your thoughts.

Edited by gimruis

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DonBo

Not certain just because the MDHA voted against it that the DNR will take this into account.  They (DNR) typically do what they want no matter how we feel about things. 

FWIW, I'm against it being fully included with the archery season.  Wisconsin stats have shown that the success rate for x-gunners is much higher than for archers.  If this trend continues, it will mean shorter seasons for us all.  Wisconsin implemented this for a 3 year trial, hopefully they'll see we're not the same and shorten the crossbow season somewhat.  Fingers crossed. 

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Wanderer

I think, and hope, the trend has been going away from full inclusion of crossbows in the regular archery season.  I’m happy to see the MDHA vote showed more NAYS than last year.

The voice of inclusion in MN really seems to be from John Cumming who is formerly from WI.  He was the main voice over there as well.

This keeps coming up year after year but the pro-inclusion folks haven’t had a really sound or improved argument since this started and I think people are starting to see that.  Whereas the anti-inclusion arguments keep developing.  There are more negative ah-ha’s to this than positive.

I could go on and on about this (and have) but for now I see this as great news.  The MDHA might just get me to join due to this vote.

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paceman

I have not been following this issue very closely. I am curious as to what the negative impacts would be to including cross bows in the regular archery season?

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climbmda

Glad to see it.  I have fired a few, and it bears no resemblance to archery.  Too much range.  May as well be shooting sabots at that point.

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Chief Catchemall

I read about the MDHA vote in outdoor news and am glad to hear it did not pass. I have absolutely no issue with crossbow hunting, just not for everyone during the archery season. I bought one for my dad on his 60th birthday a couple years ago. It's awesome! But it takes almost no skill to use it. My opinion, keep the regs the way they are. 

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Wanderer
5 hours ago, paceman said:

I have not been following this issue very closely. I am curious as to what the negative impacts would be to including cross bows in the regular archery season?

The harvest rate is higher = inevitable shorter season.

No significant hunter recruitment = no extra license dollars to the state and proof there really aren’t any disenfranchised “archery” hunters as argued.

Cummings finally admitted he’s pitting gun hunters against bow hunters and will continue to do so until this passes = not only being divisive in the hunting community but potentially bow hunters will lose access to properties that gun hunters have preference for.  This is one of my biggest worries.

Cummings plays the elitist and greedy card toward bow hunters which is quite hypocritical.

WI and WY have given this a trial run and are already considering reversing it due to increased harvest by roughly the same number of hunters.

Those are the factual negatives.  

Other concerns are:

“What if” the numbers of participants actually increases dramatically?  Aside from the state getting more license revenue and manufacturers making more money, the above issues only compound.

Its getting harder and harder to find a quality deer hunting experience for public land and permission based deer hunters in MN.  The archery season is basically salvation for so many that are into it.  If it gets shortened, more access restricted, and higher competition from point and shoot hunters it will just become another season.  Nothing special.  Why would we want to lose that?  Cuz one guy is obsessed about it?

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gimruis

Wanderer, I don't think your opinion represents the hunting community as a whole.  Clearly you are on the side of keeping it as it is and your post is very indicative of that.  I'm not saying that I disagree with you on the subject, but try looking at it from the other point of view.  There is obviously way more than one person pushing for it.  I think there's more than one guy obsessed with it, and I'm sure there are lot of hunters that are for it.

Its pretty obvious that the accuracy, skill, and range is much better than a compound bow.  Its probably a lot closer to a short range gun than a compound bow.  However, since our season bag limits are set up based on zone, and not by weapon, I don't see it having a big impact on the overall harvest.  If the bag limit is one buck whether you use a bow, cross bow, gun, or muzzle loader, what's the difference?  The bag limit is still 1.  If you so choose to harvest a buck in October rather than November, that number represents the same addition to the harvest regardless.  I do think that there would be more added pressure to the herds and hunting pressure would certainly go up.  But since the DNR's revenue is mainly tied to license sales, they can see the advantage of doing it.  Right now they're solution to falling hunter numbers is to just raise the cost of a license, which is a pattern that I don't agree with.  Manufacturers would obviously be for it too, because they would sell more equipment.  Personally, I would rather see them just do away with the "party hunting" rule before tackling this but that's another subject.

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Wanderer

@gimruis

I’ll own my position on this wholeheartedly.  I’m not shy about that at all.

I’ll say within my circle, others who don’t already bow hunt don’t seem too passionate either way but do say they might pick up a cross bow and hunt the regular archery if this passes.  I’ve candidly discussed my opinion with them and they say many of my points never occurred them.  They then understand where I’m coming from and don’t disagree they are valid points.

And that’s kinda the crux of the matter.  People who haven’t already made the commitment and migrated to archery for the benefits of not having to hunt the firearms season don’t really understand what they’re asking for.  Those that do understand the benefits but don’t want to make the commitment are the ones pushing for this.

Again, it’s transforming something special into something not so special because people don’t understand or care that it is just that; special.  My favorite analogy is saying it’s akin to opening up the entire BWCAW to motorization because people don’t want to paddle for adventure.

To the DNR: They won’t take a stance on this.  They just just say it’s a social issue and they can manage the herd either way. The cop-out frustrates me but I understand why they took the position.

To your point about the 1 buck limit:  The DNR manages the licensing and limits with the understanding there will be a certain success rate.  Once you start increasing that success rate dramatically they will have no choice but limit opportunities to be successful.  They’ll either do it by season length or license/permit availability.  That can’t be too hard to see.

I’m on board with your thoughts about party hunting bucks by the way.

Thanks for the discussion. :cool:

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nofishfisherman
5 hours ago, gimruis said:

If the bag limit is one buck whether you use a bow, cross bow, gun, or muzzle loader, what's the difference?  The bag limit is still 1.  If you so choose to harvest a buck in October rather than November, that number represents the same addition to the harvest regardless. 

The bag limit is still the same but the number of people filling a tag could potentially increase.  Many guys hunt both bow and firearm and don't fill a tag.  Archery season is difficult and firearm season is short so a lot of people eat tag soup even if they hunt both seasons.  If you start allowing crossbows during archery now you've essentially expanded the firearm season as success rates with crossbows are probably more akin to firearm success rates.  Sure the bag limit remains the same but the number reaching the limit goes up. 

Also many guys that fill a tag before the end of the season simply start hunting on bonus tags where allowed.  More overall tags will get filled, not just buck tags.

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Tom Sawyer
On 3/2/2018 at 9:33 AM, gimruis said:

Looks like the MDHA recently voted not to endorse the use of a crossbow for the general population during archery season at their annual meeting on Feb 24 in Grand Rapids.  The votes were 65-35 against it.  Last year was a much closer vote 52-48 against.  

MDHA has to be the strongest deer hunting groups in the nation, glad they are hearing us archers load and clear. But as DonBo said, sadly our MNDNR will do whatever they want. 

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Wanderer

The DNR could sway the vote but have stated they have no plans to.  It’s going to be up to the Legislature if this passes.  And that in my opinion is just wrong.

It’ll pass if the pro-voice is loud enough and it gets tied to some other actual worthwhile proposals.  I will be making my calls and hope they matter in the end.

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monstermoose78

Being I am a crossbow hunter due to a disability I can and will use my crossbow. It allows me to hunt longer with my dad and we all know that hunting time together is less everyday. Crossbows don’t shoot farther then a normal bow it’s the opposite so get that out of your head. Those short heavy bolts drop like a rock. My old compound bow was much easier to use in the field than my crossbow. With my old bow if I missed i could get a second shot not so with my crossbow it’s a one shot deal. I missed a few turkeys with crossbow and one big buck because of missed yardage. I watched that big buck walk away. With my disability I use the accu draw and it clicks like boat wrench. Plus the crossbow is much heavier and hard to move in the stand. Turkey hunting in my blind with the bi pod rest helps but I can’t make the tight angled  shot out of the blind.

I think crossbows should only be allowed in the archery season for those with disabilities as it is now. That’s monstermoose78 opinion take or leave it!!

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nofishfisherman
7 hours ago, monstermoose78 said:

Being I am a crossbow hunter due to a disability I can and will use my crossbow. It allows me to hunt longer with my dad and we all know that hunting time together is less everyday. Crossbows don’t shoot farther then a normal bow it’s the opposite so get that out of your head. Those short heavy bolts drop like a rock. My old compound bow was much easier to use in the field than my crossbow. With my old bow if I missed i could get a second shot not so with my crossbow it’s a one shot deal. I missed a few turkeys with crossbow and one big buck because of missed yardage. I watched that big buck walk away. With my disability I use the accu draw and it clicks like boat wrench. Plus the crossbow is much heavier and hard to move in the stand. Turkey hunting in my blind with the bi pod rest helps but I can’t make the tight angled  shot out of the blind.

I think crossbows should only be allowed in the archery season for those with disabilities as it is now. That’s monstermoose78 opinion take or leave it!!

I fully agree that crossbows should be allowed for people with disabilities and for older hunters who can no longer draw a bow just as the law allows currently.  I just don't think they should be allowed during bow season for everyone. 

From my understanding its not even that difficult to get a disability waiver allowing you to use a crossbow.  All it takes is a doctors note.  I've had off and on issues with my shoulder and could probably get a disability waiver pretty easily, doctor even offered me one if I wanted it but I could still draw my bow if I dialed down the weight so I stuck with it. It can be a bite sore while practicing but when I draw on a deer the adrenaline kicks in and the bow draws back easily and I don't feel a thing. 

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gimruis
On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:55 AM, monstermoose78 said:

Crossbows don’t shoot farther then a normal bow it’s the opposite so get that out of your head. Those short heavy bolts drop like a rock. My old compound bow was much easier to use in the field than my crossbow.

You are the first person that I've ever heard indicate this.  All of the advocates in the traditional compound world have all told me the exact opposite.  Course, I don't know if they are just sayin' that to trash crossbows or if they have really used one either.

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Capt. Quicksteel

I am 68 and have started shooting a crossbow. I get about 10 to 20 yards more out of it than I did with my 2 wheeler. So the claim that it's like shooting a rifle is bull. Monstermoose is right on about the second shot. I killed both deer and turkeys with my old bow with a second shot. You can load and draw in about 2 seconds. With a crossbow there's no second shot!

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monstermoose78
43 minutes ago, gimruis said:

You are the first person that I've ever heard indicate this.  All of the advocates in the traditional compound world have all told me the exact opposite.  Course, I don't know if they are just sayin' that to trash crossbows or if they have really used one either.

Have they shot a crossbow I can hit a paper target out to 50 yard but I could with my bow before and even out to 70 yards with my bow. I would never shoot an animal past 30 yards. Look at the guys who shoot 100 yards and guys are taking animals like elk and moose at that range. People who have shot a crossbow think they know but it’s not until you go hunting with one you find out they are not as easy as everyone thinks. I lost the use of my left hand and when you are left handed it’s pain in the butt to switch to being right handed. 

 

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Scoot

Old topic here but there was a request for people's take, so...  I totally agree with Wanderer and Donbo. It'll reduce the archery season considerably in the end and it just simply seems short sighted to not see the writing on the wall in that regard. 

 

MM, I'm 100% for xbows being allowed in your case. For those who have a legit reason for it (disability, elderly)  I advocate for you. For others archery season should be reserved for archers (xbow doesn't fit IMO). 

As far as the claims you are making about how an xbow isn't more accurate at long distance the only way I can see someone saying that is if they haven't shot a newer xbow. Their performance is crazy good and more importantly any noob can pick one up and be accurate out to very long distances with virtually no effort or practice.  Are you using an older xbow?  

 

Shooting my cousins new xbow my 11 year old daughter can bust Xs at 60 yards- no problem.  My cousin, who's a mediocre shot with a bow, is deadly accurate at 100 yards.  

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monstermoose78
1 hour ago, Scoot said:

 

MM, I'm 100% for xbows being allowed in your case. For those who have a legit reason for it (disability, elderly)  I advocate for you. For others archery season should be reserved for archers (xbow doesn't fit IMO). 

As far as the claims you are making about how an xbow isn't more accurate at long distance the only way I can see someone saying that is if they haven't shot a newer xbow. Their performance is crazy good and more importantly any noob can pick one up and be accurate out to very long distances with virtually no effort or practice.  Are you using an older xbow?  

 

Shooting my cousins new xbow my 11 year old daughter can bust Xs at 60 yards- no problem.  My cousin, who's a mediocre shot with a bow, is deadly accurate at 100 yards.  

My crossbow it a Titian tenpoint from 2010 or 2011 I think. I can shoot a long ways in a controlled environment, but hunting in the woods 30 yards is a long shot. This spring I had toms at 40 yards strutting but I did not take a shot as they kept moving and it was kind of windy. 

 

I think crossbows should not be allowed for everyone in the general archery season. However people with disabilities or over the age of 70 should be able to use them in the general archery season. 

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monstermoose78

I watched some traditional archery guys hitting kill zones repeatedly at 100 yards. Crossbow bolts can reach that distance but you still need to be a good shot.

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Wanderer

There’s a commercial out now that has a crossbow and rifle on shooting benches side by side showing “rifle like accuracy” at 100 yards. 🙁

 

 

I know well tuned vertical bow shooters have made the 100 yard shots too but I’d wager there are very few who can.

 

All that aside, at 100 yards, how deep will the penetration be?  How much will the animal move between the shot and arrow arrival?  Killing paper is nothing compared to the real thing.  It bothers me to see that manufacturer promoting rifle like shots with their crossbow.  Again, the main market these manufacturers are after IS people who don’t understand archery.  You can’t make millions of dollars in the crossbow market by targeting people who NEED these to participate.  The revenue is the WANT crowd.  Always has been that way.

Edited by Wanderer
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gimruis

I have never fired a cross bow or a compound/traditional bow in my life.  The only information I have to rely on is what I hear or read from others.  I seem to constantly get conflicting stories too, so until I try them for myself I'm going to refrain on offering my opinion of them.  I'm strictly a gun hunter.  I shoot rifles, shotguns, and handguns regularly for hunting purposes and recreational purposes.  That is my weapon of choice for 24 years.  However, if they opened up archery season full time to the general population with a crossbow, I'd likely at least consider doing it.  I think eventually Minnesota will allow it.  When, I don't know.  Its only a matter of time.  Michigan and Wisconsin have shown that it brings in a significant amount of hunters that would otherwise not participate.  And when it comes to additional hunters, that means more revenue for the DNR, who's budget is closely tied to license sales.  I have a couple friends who hunt in Wisconsin and when they legalized crossbows for the general population, they both sold their compounds and bought cross bows.  Their reason: its easier, its more accurate, and requires minimal practice.  So you can place me into that crowd of people who might help increase revenue for the DNR if they legalized it, and I'm sure there are a lot more.

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Mike89

I thought when you turn 60 you could use a cross bow???

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Wanderer

You are correct.  After adding the age exemption to the physical impairment exception it was lowered one time, if I remember correctly.  The discussion was to lower the age exemption again but they opted to just go for the full inclusion at that point.

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Wanderer
4 hours ago, gimruis said:

I have never fired a cross bow or a compound/traditional bow in my life.  The only information I have to rely on is what I hear or read from others.  I seem to constantly get conflicting stories too, so until I try them for myself I'm going to refrain on offering my opinion of them.  I'm strictly a gun hunter.  I shoot rifles, shotguns, and handguns regularly for hunting purposes and recreational purposes.  That is my weapon of choice for 24 years.  However, if they opened up archery season full time to the general population with a crossbow, I'd likely at least consider doing it.  I think eventually Minnesota will allow it.  When, I don't know.  Its only a matter of time.  Michigan and Wisconsin have shown that it brings in a significant amount of hunters that would otherwise not participate.  And when it comes to additional hunters, that means more revenue for the DNR, who's budget is closely tied to license sales.  I have a couple friends who hunt in Wisconsin and when they legalized crossbows for the general population, they both sold their compounds and bought cross bows.  Their reason: its easier, its more accurate, and requires minimal practice.  So you can place me into that crowd of people who might help increase revenue for the DNR if they legalized it, and I'm sure there are a lot more.

 

I see your comments as an accurate reflection of the early “hypothetical” concerns of the anti crossbow crowd.  It’s human nature to gravitate toward easier means to get things done, especially as we get older and lifestyles become busier.

 

The DNR absolutely does want more license sales and in the short term would probably see some gains by full inclusion but there will also be collateral damage, I think, in the further degradation of the hunting experience in MN.

 

As it gets harder and harder to find quality, unmolested hunts in this state, others will drop out of the MN scene.  Maybe it’s still calculated as a net gain so no big deal, right?

 

I am one that hopes last year’s FA license was my last in MN.  I’m one step away from not buying an archery tag anymore as well.  It’s getting difficult for me to even call myself a MN Archer anymore with all the competing interests that trash my early season.  ML is my last hope, and if we have good ice, I might just go fishing instead.  Any exciting deer/big game hunts I have planned will be occurring out of this state.

 

1 person potentially going from 3 license purchases (before bonus tags) to 0 seems like an impact to me when you introduce the multiplication factor of others who are fed up and have other options.

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