Dnr's future plan for walleye slot?

[kelly-p]

1 hour ago, Sculpin said:

I think it's also important to point out, that the quota on Mille Lacs is only one part of overall Tribal harvest, they can also go to many other lakes and declare their share of the harvest allocation.

This triggered something in my memory.

From a Dennis Anderson article May 9 2015.

The Bois Forte Band made news a few weeks back when it successfully convinced the Fond du Lac Band of Chippewa not to net Lake Vermilion this spring. Typically, Fond du Lac nets Mille Lacs in spring. But the low walleye population there, and correspondingly low Chippewa harvest quotas, left the Fond du Lac Chippewa looking for fish.

The Fond du Lac band has off-reservation harvesting rights on Vermilion under an 1854 treaty with the federal government, and on Mille Lacs under an 1837 treaty.

“Fond du Lac has the right to harvest fish in the 1854 ceded territory, and we defend their right,” Bois Forte chairman Kevin Leecy told the Timberjay newspaper in mid-April after meetings with Fond du Lac leaders. “But we have significant concerns about them harvesting in our back yard. Fond du Lac tribal members use motorized boats to net, while Bois Forte tribal members net in the traditional way with canoes only.”

[delcecchi]

2 hours ago, leech~~ said:

Well Daaau Del. You've only said that like 10 times now in the 236 replies on this thread. Got it! Del's Pro Net! 

Nope. It is the amount they harvest that matters. Not the method. Non band members still get to kill three times as many walleye as do the bands.  They just do it as a byproduct of catch and release.

The whole anglers are more virtuous than netters and had little or nothing to do with the collapse when they continually killed several times more walleye than the bands is ridiculous.

Edited March 22, 2016 by delcecchi

[Sculpin]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:49 PM, Sculpin said:

The Indian fish processing plant in Redby, (Red Lake) still uses gill nets on the lake.  For a period of time, after the recovery, the Band attempted to sustain the commercial fishery by hook and line fishing, they quickly learned it was not possible. Although there are still a good number of Band members who fish hook and line to sell their fish to the processing plant, gill nets must be deployed to keep the processing volume at a sustainable commercial level. Much like the bands coming to Mille Lacs, without gillnets, their quota would never be met.

In addition, in the case of Mille Lacs, the Bands would probably never achieve their quotas during any time other then the spawn, when the fish are concentrated in-shore, in shallow water.

In another week or so, the WI. bands will declare where they are going to "fish" this year, if they declare Vermillion, as they did last year, it will be interesting to see how they are welcomed by the Bois Forte, you may recall last year, Kevin Leecy, the Tribal chair at Vermilion, told them they were not welcome. He said in essence, it was injurious to the lake, the economy, and it was not in keeping with the way it should be done, in canoes.  Mr. Leecy should work for the DNR, he is a wise man, indeed.

The DNR will announce Mille Lacs regulations either tomorrow, or Tues.  hang on.    

  

Thanks Kelly, Mr. Leecy is a very wise man, and clearly a smart Chief of his band.

6 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

Nope. It is the amount they harvest that matters. Not the method. Non band members still get to kill three times as many walleye as do the bands.  They just do it as a byproduct of catch and release.

Perhaps Mr. Leecy feels the advantage is only the "motorized boats", and not five miles of gill nets.  I'll say again, I like Chairman Leecy, he is a wise and conservation minded Man. I wish he had got a call in to Chief Melanie Benjamin, Chief of the  Mille Lacs Band,  a number of years ago.

I asked you this before Del, and you never answered, What do you think a couple of miles of gillnets in Pike Bay East and West would do to the spawn at Vermillion.????  No effect ??

[leech~~]

10 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Nope. It is the amount they harvest that matters. Not the method. Non band members still get to kill three times as many walleye as do the bands.  They just do it as a byproduct of catch and release.

The whole anglers are more virtuous than netters and had little or nothing to do with the collapse when they continually killed several times more walleye than the bands is ridiculous.

Unless you break down the fish take by a % per person "all being equal users" of the resource Del then your numbers are ridiculously way lope-sided. The total taken as a % by a few hundred band member's as compared to the % by person of 100's of thousands of licensed fisherman in Minnesota is ridiculous. And at least with catch and release there is a chance that a good % of released fish will survive. Chance of survival of nets 0%.   Around & around we go!

[delcecchi]

Tell it to the judge.  Per capita is not part of the equation. And neither was dividing the harvest by population accepted by the court.  Until the President decides to abrogate the band's treaty rights they get their share as defined by the court.

The natives harvest theirs efficiently.  That is one way of doing it.

The anglers this year won't harvest any, but their quota will be used as hooking mortality from the C&R angling season. That is another way of using the allowable harvest quota..

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by delcecchi

[Sculpin]

I think what everyone needs to do is step back, take a deep breath, and recognize that our illustrious DNR has no idea what they have done, what they are doing, or what they should do next.  They have studied it, modeled it, tagged it, allocated it, and in general tried to learn as they go. The last eighteen or so years have been nothing more than guesswork, smoke, mirrors, fairy dust, head scratching, and consulting with dubious "Blue Ribbon Panels", to lend support to their own ridiculous hypothesis, Cops investigating Cops. The next step is to allow launches to use live bait,  "permits" to generate more paperwork, to study it some more.??  What could possibly be learned by documenting massive launch hooking mortality all summer long. 

The debate will now move to another lake, as Mille Lacs does not have the walleyes ( that biomass deal) to support Indian harvest or Sport angler harvest.  The poor DNR has to be terrified, as they have no idea how to manage this whole mess to the satisfaction of the general sport angling public, or the Indians with their spears and nets.  The Governor went to Isle and mumbled, and gestured, climbed on a launch, and dangled a line in the water, and make empty promises, and my guess is he will not stick his neck out any further then he already has.  

I think Vermillion can and will be the next "co-management" fiasco, and when the nets are neatly strung across Pike bay, and the hatchery shuts down up there for lack of fish, we'll see how it plays out. Vermillion has a little more money along its shores, deep pockets can make a difference.

Or perhaps it will take the Indians themselves, (Chairman Leecy) to finally bring some common sense to the whole mess.

 

[leechlake]

my mind isn't sharp enough so I like to keep it simple.

Let's simplify Mille Lacs and anglers and netters into a pond with two cabins on it.

On this pond there are two cabins on it and they are the only ones who fish the pond.  The pond fish numbers are bad so the two cabin owners get together.  One decides to not keep any fish for the year on the pond and because of that he probably won't fish as much as he used to and opt for other waters.  The other says he will keep netting the pond and keep what he always did.  

[Sculpin]

And then when all the fish are gone, everyone moves on to the next fish filled pond, but then the taxpayers and license buyers get stuck with the tab to restock the first pond. Then the DNR claps their hands, issues a press release, and slaps themselves on the back, and says "look, we fixed the pond" and everyone lives happily ever after.

The End. 

[city slicker]

24 minutes ago, leechlake said:

my mind isn't sharp enough so I like to keep it simple.

Let's simplify Mille Lacs and anglers and netters into a pond with two cabins on it.

On this pond there are two cabins on it and they are the only ones who fish the pond.  The pond fish numbers are bad so the two cabin owners get together.  One decides to not keep any fish for the year on the pond and because of that he probably won't fish as much as he used to and opt for other waters.  The other says he will keep netting the pond and keep what he always did.  

Amen.city

[leech~~]

46 minutes ago, leechlake said:

my mind isn't sharp enough so I like to keep it simple.

Let's simplify Mille Lacs and anglers and netters into a pond with two cabins on it.

On this pond there are two cabins on it and they are the only ones who fish the pond.  The pond fish numbers are bad so the two cabin owners get together.  One decides to not keep any fish for the year on the pond and because of that he probably won't fish as much as he used to and opt for other waters.  The other says he will keep netting the pond and keep what he always did.

Get ready here comes Del to tell you it's the right of one of them to empty the pond!

[delcecchi]

Nah, there are two guys on the pond.  One says he wants a few fish to eat.  The other says he wants to rent his cabin to 500 guys, but they want to catch fish too, so the first guy shouldn't eat any because then his customers wouldn't catch as many and wouldn't buy stuff.  And the second guy was counting on the rent to make a living.

As the old saying goes, "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" I think a Felgy said that.

[leech~~]

1 hour ago, leech~~ said:

Get ready here comes Del to tell you it's the right of one of them to empty the pond!

Called it!

I should really go to the Casino with this luck, and then maybe order a Walleye dinner after playing. Oh wait um no that one guy with the cabin needs them to live.

[delcecchi]

So the side that kills 1/4 of the fish is the villain, and the group that kills 3/4 and is in charge of the lake is the victim?   Got it.

 

[slammer]

I better make my reservations now for my summer trips to a couple of the other walleye lakes in the state.  Got a feeling there will be more boats on some of the more popular ones.

[Yep]

I think it's all about the timing. What if duck season started in May? Or deer season in April? One harvest equacts to a lot during the spawn. There is a reason for the start of the season. Respect it and net in June or July 

Oops sorry about some spelling, fingering to fat from years of fishing out on the south end in the winter

[leechlake]

12 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Nah, there are two guys on the pond.  One says he wants a few fish to eat.  The other says he wants to rent his cabin to 500 guys, but they want to catch fish too, so the first guy shouldn't eat any because then his customers wouldn't catch as many and wouldn't buy stuff.  And the second guy was counting on the rent to make a living.

As the old saying goes, "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" I think a Felgy said that.

then why don't they both quit keeping fish the lake for a year.  One guy will move his nets to another lake and the resort guy will have to figure out what he wants to do to keep things going.  

btw- I never fish Mille Lacs actually I have ice fished it two times in my life and the last time was 15 years ago.  I don't care and have no dog in the fight.  It seems unfixable to me unless people stop killing walleyes every five years or so.  

[delcecchi]

They can't shut down the lake totally because a good part of the area economy depends on it. Might be able to leave musky fishing open, but I don't think that would save the businesses.  Even with the C&R season this year is going to be rough for them. Politicians already trying to interfere.

[Bandersnatch]

"By Glen Schmitt; 11:15 p.m. CST January 25, 2014 

“The water was clearing before zebra mussels were found, and with clearer water we have increased predation of young fish,” Bruesewitz said. “But you can’t just look at that, you have to look at everything moving forward with managing the lake.”

The most prominent change at Mille Lacs has been the decline of its forage base, primarily in the way of the fishery’s tullibee population. A drop in tullibee numbers is believed to be negatively affecting walleyes since they grow faster consuming the calorie-rich species."

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

So increasing the Walleye population though C&R only, and no live bait, helps this how?

 

(or does the MNDNR really not know a damned thing about what they are doing to manage the lake, and the Shotgun Approach is the defacto standard that we can expect for now and into the future?)

 

My vote is to the latter.

[leech~~]

44 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

"By Glen Schmitt; 11:15 p.m. CST January 25, 2014 

“The water was clearing before zebra mussels were found, and with clearer water we have increased predation of young fish,” Bruesewitz said. “But you can’t just look at that, you have to look at everything moving forward with managing the lake.”

The most prominent change at Mille Lacs has been the decline of its forage base, primarily in the way of the fishery’s tullibee population. A drop in tullibee numbers is believed to be negatively affecting walleyes since they grow faster consuming the calorie-rich species."

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

So increasing the Walleye population though C&R only, and no live bait, helps this how?

 

(or does the MNDNR really not know a damned thing about what they are doing to manage the lake, and the Shotgun Approach is the defacto standard that we can expect for now and into the future?)

 

My vote is to the latter.

What's really odd to me and should be to anyone else that fished Mille Lacs during the winter and put a cam down is that there is like a bizzilon small Perch down there picking away at your bait. I have seen this in sallow bays as well as deep water all around the lake in just about any hole drilled. Since just about everything you read the Perch is the first on the list of Walleye food. I have a hard time with the low forage base or Cannibalism or their fry statements. Seems like all that is down there is little pizz ant Perch most of the time.

Edited March 23, 2016 by leech~~

[Kyhl]

With all those perch we may find out later this year that the 2015 class survived to year 1.  And maybe year 2 next year.

That is a couple of unknown maybes.  In the meantime, why not remove the top preditor from the lake, Man, to help it heal?

I'm all for setting ML to C&R for walleye.  I've been on here saying that for multiple years.  Now I'm saying, it's about time.  My only issue is the crony capitalism of supporting the launches while screwing anyone else.

Ok, one other issue.  Why the night ban?  Is there supposed to be more hooking mortality in the dark?  I would have rather seen a mid-summer closure (July and August) with a re-opening in Sept and allow for night fishing in the fall after the water temps have cooled and hooking mortality falls to near zero.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Kyhl

[Bandersnatch]

45 minutes ago, Kyhl said:

With all those perch we may find out later this year that the 2015 class survived to year 1.  And maybe year 2 next year.

That is a couple of unknown maybes.  In the meantime, why not remove the top preditor from the lake, Man, to help it heal?

I'm all for setting ML to C&R for walleye.  I've been on here saying that for multiple years.  Now I'm saying, it's about time.  My only issue is the crony capitalism of supporting the launches while screwing anyone else.

Ok, one other issue.  Why the night ban?  Is there supposed to be more hooking mortality in the dark?  I would have rather seen a mid-summer closure (July and August) with a re-opening in Sept and allow for night fishing in the fall after the water temps have cooled and hooking mortality falls to near zero.

1) Does anyone besides me think that the MNDNR Guesstimate on the Walleye population complete bunk?

2) With the restrictive SLOT the lake has already been basically C&R the last few years anyway. They hammered the hell out of two year classes, rather than adjust the slot to thin out the larger predatory fish.

3) " crony capitalism of supporting the launches while screwing anyone else " I think that if you put the emotions aside, and rethink this, you will realize that having the Launches use live bait In Support Of A Hooking Mortality Study (because they only get to use it if they agree to participate) is actually a Good Thing. Maybe we can get an actual COUNT of hooking mortality, rather than use the goofy equation that contains Boat Traffic, Swimmers Itch, and when was the last time you took your Girlfriend to Dinner.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Bandersnatch

[delcecchi]

I don't get what the launches are doing to assess hooking mortality.  Does someone have a link to what they will actually do for this study?  The cynic in me says it is all just a front to allow the launches to stay in business.  

As for fishing at night, no one knows what happens in the dark... 

[leech~~]

27 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

I don't get what the launches are doing to assess hooking mortality.  Does someone have a link to what they will actually do for this study?  The cynic in me says it is all just a front to allow the launches to stay in business.

As for fishing at night, no one knows what happens in the dark...

Yep Nets marked by GPS hide pretty well under the water!

[Kyhl]

WTH?  The site just ate my reply.  I really do not like the new forum software and don't spend much time here anymore.

I'm not going to retype the response.  The short answer, I agree with Del.  The launches will not be able to assess hooking mortality.  It's a joke.

I'm officially fed up with this sites software and split.  Good luck to you guys.

[Bandersnatch]

One further issue that I have not seen addressed..............

 

What is the sense in not leaving the one fish over 28" for the Trophy Hunters?

[Sculpin]

The night fishing ban, which has been in effect for years, but generally to a lesser degree, usually after the opening weekend, is designed to save fish. For anyone who has fished Mille Lacs, you know that once that sun dips below the horizon, the fishing can be nothing short of spectacular, and can be hot all night long.   

Allowing a fish over 28" would seem to make sense, but the DNR may feel there are only 16 of those left in the lake.

Catch one over 28, get a good photo, measure it, and have a graphite replica made. 

[Yep]

Let's count on this 2013 class, oh by the way the ice out was may16 that year. No nets to speak of during the spawn, go figure. I'm all for tribal harvest, just do it at a time that agrees with nature.

[Roosterslayer05]

On 3/23/2016 at 1:04 PM, Bandersnatch said:

1) Does anyone besides me think that the MNDNR Guesstimate on the Walleye population complete bunk?

2) With the restrictive SLOT the lake has already been basically C&R the last few years anyway. They hammered the hell out of two year classes, rather than adjust the slot to thin out the larger predatory fish.

3) " crony capitalism of supporting the launches while screwing anyone else " I think that if you put the emotions aside, and rethink this, you will realize that having the Launches use live bait In Support Of A Hooking Mortality Study (because they only get to use it if they agree to participate) is actually a Good Thing. Maybe we can get an actual COUNT of hooking mortality, rather than use the goofy equation that contains Boat Traffic, Swimmers Itch, and when was the last time you took your Girlfriend to Dinner.

First things first, the natives netted in 2013.  I lived on the lake that year and I saw natives netting.  It was such a late ice out that they didn't net as much as they wanted, but they did net.

 

1.  The estimate is pretty accurate.  The fall gill net survey estimates have been done for 50 years.  It's the baseline estimate.  If you have a better way then 50 years of data you let me know.   Also, the special population assessment's they do are a simple mark and recapture study.  The mathematics involved are simple, and they can figure out the error rate based on effort and the amount of fish tagged.  Example:  The estimate is 250,000 fish with a standard deviation of 25,000.  That means that mathematically there's a 68% chance that the population falls between 225,000 and 275,000 and there's a 95% chance the population falls between 200,000 and 300,000.  When both the special population assessment and the fall gill net survey are showing a population of around the same amount of fish, for years, you can conclude the walleyes are down.  Concluding otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

2.  The D.N.R was forced to target the same size fish because of the quota being measured by "poundage".  The resorts didn't want a possible shutdown or a reduced bag limit for years.  The businesses pressured the DNR to allow as many walleyes to be kept as possible.  Since the quota is based on pounds the slot was geared towards smaller fish.  Instead of having a limit of one or two fish between, say, 20-23 inches the resorts wanted 4 smaller fish.  It's equal parts the resorts putting pressure and the DNR capitulating to that pressure.  Everyone is culpable here, including the resorts.

3.  The current hooking mortality estimate is based on a hooking mortality study that was done on Mille Lacs years ago.  You can find the article on google scholar. You can argue that the fishing "pressure" estimate might not be accurate, but the hooking mortality data based on the study appears to be sound.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Roosterslayer05

[tfin]

IMO Mille and all the lakes in Minnesota that are in danger are that way because they are over fished period.  Whether it's netting or the fact that when 1 lake gets shut down another gets hammered.  Communication between anglers due to sites like this as well as all of the other advantages we have gained over the last 2 decades makes it easier for us to find fish and put them in the boat.  All of us that pull fish from a lake are to blame.  Blaming the dnr for being unable to make a difference is a poor mindset.  It's akin to blaming police for not being able to stop crime.  They can't stop crime but without them there would be a whole lot more.  Likewise, without the dnr,  the lakes would already be empty. 

A lot of us have nice boats and spare time to fish, some more than others but we all like to get out as much as possible.  We do it for fun and to put a little food on our table.  The tribes use their fish for consumption as well as to fuel their economy.  The problem as I see it is diversity.  If we cannot change our ways then we will continue to blame the dnr, tribes or once in a while, even ourselves.  Nobody thinks it's smart to invest all their money in a risky stock so they diversify.  The tribes need to find other ways to make money and diversify their income,  use money to get into manufacturing or something.  The common fisherman needs to catch and release, stop freezing fish and keep to the possession limit, and maybe find a different way to relax from time to time. 

The last thing is that with all of the social sites and networking, it's easy to lambast a group of people in relative safety(guilty myself from time to time).  Nobody takes advice that's given in the form of an insult.  Making a person see red while trying to get them to change their ways is useless.  Cooperation between the different groups of people fishing the lake is the only way to make a lasting change.  I feel bad for the businesses that depend on the lake but it's no different than what we all face with normal economic up and downs.  Many of us are tradesmen that have been laid off for long periods when the economy is down.  Some will travel away from their families to do what's needed during the rough years.  The tribes should be able to find different ways to make a living as well but it's up to them to make that decision.  One that won't be helped by a bunch of hate mail. 

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Way too much logic going on now in these last 2 posts...... Come on guys, keep the rational discussion to a minimum here, let's get back to the bar stool biology!