Dnr's future plan for walleye slot?

[Sculpin]

5 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Logic is the way to deal with allegations about tribal netting.  As for transparency, the governing body for tribal netting maintains a web site with detailed information about what has been netted.  Netting is more closely and honestly monitored than angling is. 

Here is a link to their information

http://www.glifwc.org/Fisheries/Inland/inland.html

The DNR needs to limit harvest of walleye in many lakes in Minnesota.  They chose to use slots since that seemed to be the least objectionable to anglers.  In some lakes slots seem to have had adverse effects that weren't foreseen by the DNR when coupled with natural processes happening in the lake.  Mille Lacs is one of those lakes. 

I don't know what kind of secret stuff the PERM crowd fears is going on in the meetings.  Do you?

And also recall that the PERM guys and Bud Grant and others contributed to the problem by torpedoing the buy out deal the state had with the Mille Lacs band and forcing the case to the Supreme Court. 

 

Your recollection is partially correct on the old "buy out" scenario, the problem was that the Mille Lacs band was good with a "zone" of their own over around the Rez, and Rainbow Island on the west side.  The real wrench was that the Wisc. bands would not have been a party to the agreement, so at the end of the day the whole lake would have been open, regardless of any "deal" made with the Mille Lacs band. Nobody gave a hoot what Bud Grant did, nor PERM for the most part. Bud simply went to the big protest at the Capital at that time and made an ass of himself by calling out a bunch of Natives for purportedly being drunk.

[Fisherman45]

It is an impossible task for the DNR to manage any fishery where so many anglers think they are entitled to fish.  Especially when the fish are so easy to catch. Best bet is to ban walleye fishing for a few years at a time to allow the lakes to reset themselves. The End

[leech~~]

1 hour ago, delcecchi said:

BTW, how many trophy pike have the harpooners taken out of Cass and Mille Lacs the last few years?

There is a Thread for that: Bowfishing/Spearing - MN     

Why don't you offer yourself up as a decoy and go in there and ask them?

We will keep an eye out for blood on the water!

Edited February 10, 2016 by leech~~

[delcecchi]

Been there done that.   Got the time out to prove it. 

But it is just another example of DNR malfeasance if you are looking for such.  They caved to the spearers.  And on Mille Lacs it was part of blaming pike when that was their theory.

[Weathertite]

I find it hilarious that I can be called an idiot for having an opinion. Seems to me that you must work for the DNR and feel like you are being blamed. I would explain myself further but then again it would just be my opinion again which would only make me a bigger idiot.

[delcecchi]

11 minutes ago, Weathertite said:

I find it hilarious that I can be called an idiot for having an opinion. Seems to me that you must work for the DNR and feel like you are being blamed. I would explain myself further but then again it would just be my opinion again which would only make me a bigger idiot.

Well, it seems to me that those who rip on the DNR should have some facts to support their position and maybe even some alternative solutions to propose (not counting any that involve getting the Supremes to change their mind).  And they shouldn't say stuff that isn't true. 

That's my point of view. 

So trot out some facts and some proposals. Let's see what you have.

[creepworm]

8 hours ago, Weathertite said:

I find it hilarious that I can be called an idiot for having an opinion. Seems to me that you must work for the DNR and feel like you are being blamed. I would explain myself further but then again it would just be my opinion again which would only make me a bigger idiot.

I feel like this is pointed at me.

I never once called anyone an idiot. I did say that your opinion is asinine, because it is. After all, you did say " If anyone here actually believes ANYTHING  the DNR has to say then our natural resources are really in trouble". So when the DNR says the Walleye population in Mille Lacs is down from historical highs, should we believe them? If we do, according to your opinion " our natural resources are really in trouble".

18 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

I'm not emotional whatsoever.

 

But I won't stand by and be called an idiot either.

Again, I never called anyone an idiot.

However, I do invite you to reread your posts while remembering that anger and frustration are emotions.

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, creepworm said:

I feel like this is pointed at me.

I never once called anyone an idiot. I did say that your opinion is asinine, because it is. After all, you did say " If anyone here actually believes ANYTHING  the DNR has to say then our natural resources are really in trouble". So when the DNR says the Walleye population in Mille Lacs is down from historical highs, should we believe them? If we do, according to your opinion " our natural resources are really in trouble".

Again, I never called anyone an idiot.

However, I do invite you to reread your posts while remembering that anger and frustration are emotions.

Okay. I'll take the hit for that.

I was alluding to your very pointed post (paraphrasing here) that read no one that did not have a masters in biology should have an opinion on the matter, and if they did, they were being foolish to express it.

Is that close to what you meant in that post?  Or not.

"anger and frustration" That has to be colored by your very own myopic reading of my posts.

 

As for posting research, I am quite tired of posting link after link on how SLOTS damage lakes, only to be told "that's not Mille Lacs" time an again. So with that, you have Google. Use it.

In closing this thought, not only has the DNR futzed up Mille Lac with it's poorly thought out SLOTS it has also doomed many other Walleye lakes in the State to the very same eventual decline seen on Mille Lac. It may just take a little longer. With the One Fish Over 20" State Wide slot targeting the smaller fish year after year after year the very same thing (sans netting) will happen to many other lakes in the State over time. Manage lakes for Big Fish, and sooner or later you will have Big Fish predation, until the lake turns around and then you will have a population of Old Stunted Fish. (google the Wisconsin study on large mouth slots).

The MNDNR has not made good biological choices for the waters of Minnesota in a very long time.

 

What they have made are Political choices.

 

 

 

[Kyhl]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Bandersnatch said:

Here are mine.

Master of Common Sense.

Here is my observation: The public had the wool pulled over their eyes with the Blue Ribbon Panel that was supposed to come in and help out with this issue.

What did the Blue Ribbon Panel do? They went over the very same data collected by the MNDNR and Rubber Stamped the findings.

I call this an Epic Fail.

Anyone have a different take on that?

I didn't read the Blue Ribbon Panel's summary as a 'Rubber Stamp'.

I thought they directly called out the DNR for their stupid targeted protection of large fish.

See the recommendation section of https://www.d.umn.edu/biology/documents/Ahrenstorff2_000.pdf

 

Quote

However, we also note that the fixed exploitation policy of 24% of fish over 356 mm that was established when state and tribal co-management was put in place does not necessarily provide for a conservative level of fishing or prevent substantial year-to-year fluctuations in the actual impact of fishing.

...

In the future, we believe there is a need to move away from a constant-F or constant exploitation rate policy like that is technically in place.

 

Feel the burn DNR?

The DNR mismanaged by overly protecting large fish.  Sadly, they are still protecting them.  Hopefully they will die off soon so the fry have a better chance to grow.

One last quote

 

Quote

Finally, we do not recommend walleye stocking in Mille Lacs. Stocking supplements natural reproduction and can therefore be an important part of a walleye recovery effort (e.g., Red Lakes walleye; Logsdon 2006). However, natural reproduction in Mille Lacs is already very high. The problem appears to be lower survival from the first winter to approximately the third fall. Stocked fish will suffer the same fate and, assuming that low survival is due to cannibalism and/or predation, could exacerbate the problem by sustaining predator populations.

In other words, Adding a hatchery and stocking the lake will add to the problem by feeding the big fish that are there already.  Why do we need to build a hatchery on ML?  Oh yeah, politics.

The DNR needs to be able to do its job without political meddling from Gov Goofy, and Congress.

 

I can't edit the block quote in this system.  The last Panel quote was supposed to be

 

Quote

Finally, we do not recommend walleye stocking in Mille Lacs. Stocking supplements natural reproduction and can therefore be an important part of a walleye recovery effort (e.g., Red Lakes walleye; Logsdon 2006). However, natural reproduction in Mille Lacs is already very high. The problem appears to be lower survival from the first winter to approximately the third fall. Stocked fish will suffer the same fate and, assuming that low survival is due to cannibalism and/or predation, could exacerbate the problem by sustaining predator populations.

 

In other words, Adding a hatchery and stocking the lake will add to the problem by feeding the big fish that are there already. Why do we need to build a hatchery on ML? Oh yeah, politics.

The DNR needs to be able to do its job without political meddling from Gov Goofy, and Congress.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Kyhl

[delcecchi]

Congress???

What meddling from congress?  

[Weathertite]

All that I was trying to say was that in " My Opinion " , was that I feel like the DNR as a whole( and not pointing any fingers at the Mille Lacs Lake situation) has become untrustworthy in their management practices.

1. The wolf population in Minnesota. ( If there were truly only 3000 wolves in the state of Minnesota they would be rarely seen by humans )

2. Deer population numbers statewide. ( poor registration practice that can never be verified )

3. If they truly want an accurate count of the fish be harvested ( Not Killed ) they could have volunteers sitting at the landings taking down the information. They already have people at many landings checking where you have been fishing , where will you be fishing next  , Is the livewell drained and did you pull every single thing off your boat and trailer that resembles anything like a weed.

4. And I only ask because I don't know the answer , Who monitors the poundage of fish that are brought in by the legal nets ? Not looking for an argument , just don't know the answer.

Again this is my opinion and I know that it may not be shared by others on here.

 

[delcecchi]

As far as #4, did you look at the link I posted to the great lakes fisheries page?

[leech~~]

1 hour ago, Weathertite said:

4. And I only ask because I don't know the answer , Who monitors the poundage of fish that are brought in by the legal nets ? Not looking for an argument , just don't know the answer.

 

 

I'm not for sure but I did stop by the landing above Isle one year by mistake trying to get on the lake when the netting was going on and there was a lot of DNR guys with a big tent setup. It was hard to watch the netters throwing big Walleyes, Pike, and Jumbo Perch into big tubs but I didn't really see if they brought them over to get counted or weighed at the DNR tent? It was really an eye opener and something I think every fisherman that loves Mille Lacs should see someday. Then people from Rochester that may not get up to fish Mille Lacs much may have a better understanding why some people are so against it all.

[delcecchi]

Yeah, I feel the same way about guys spearing pike.  But just because it is diffused and you don't see all those walleye and so on going into coolers and freezers doesn't mean that it isn't happening.  It is just spread all over the lake and throughout the year.  

And the fact that the native netting happens over a short time at a few locations makes it way easier to measure.

Edited February 12, 2016 by delcecchi

[Stick in Mud]

I'll let you all fight it out.  But here's a fun little video of M. Rosen and B. Grant discussing the Mille Lacs situation circa 2011.  My favorite part:  Rosen's face on the close-up when Grant starts getting all political.

 

 

[creepworm]

11 hours ago, Weathertite said:

All that I was trying to say was that in " My Opinion " , was that I feel like the DNR as a whole( and not pointing any fingers at the Mille Lacs Lake situation) has become untrustworthy in their management practices.

1. The wolf population in Minnesota. ( If there were truly only 3000 wolves in the state of Minnesota they would be rarely seen by humans )

2. Deer population numbers statewide. ( poor registration practice that can never be verified )

3. If they truly want an accurate count of the fish be harvested ( Not Killed ) they could have volunteers sitting at the landings taking down the information. They already have people at many landings checking where you have been fishing , where will you be fishing next  , Is the livewell drained and did you pull every single thing off your boat and trailer that resembles anything like a weed.

4. And I only ask because I don't know the answer , Who monitors the poundage of fish that are brought in by the legal nets ? Not looking for an argument , just don't know the answer.

Again this is my opinion and I know that it may not be shared by others on here.

 

1. The DNR has their hands tied by the higher ups. Anything to do with wolves happens at a federal level. Even when the Management was "handed" to the state it was very heavily influenced by the feds.

2. I agree, they always seem to come up with the same numbers. It looks like that will be changing with the recalibration of their population models. I will add that no registration practice can ever be verified. Its the old saying, those that want to break the law cannot be legislated into following the law. Also, several states that Minnesotans envy when it comes to deer hunting have no registration process at all.

3. It would be nice, but finding volunteers to monitor every access point every day of the year is a little unrealistic. Then throw in the cabin owners or people staying at a resort that do not use an access point every day and it ends up back where we are, an educated guess. Maybe a slightly more educated guess, but an educated guess none the less. I think I sense that you feel the people at the landings for AIS reasons are unnecessary. If that is the case, I could not agree with you more.

4. GLIFWC and the MN DNR collaboratively.

[delcecchi]

The DNR does try to sample anglers, sort of like political polling, as to what they have caught and what they have harvested.   It should be a fairly accurate system if the people polled tell the truth. 

Did ice fishermen really only harvest 5000 pounds of walleye this winter?  Or did they change the quota and I missed it.?

And I recall Bud showing up and giving speeches etc back in 2001 or whenever the negotiations over tribal harvest were ongoing. I sure thought at the time that he was trying to use Mille Lacs to overturn what happened in Wisconsin earlier. 

In fact, it seems to me that the whole mess in Wisconsin with the rednecks at the boat landings and making racist comments etc was a big factor in the Mille Lacs affair. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by delcecchi

[Bandersnatch]

Kyhl,

What I meant by rubber stamp, is that the panel did no testing on their own, and only rehashed  though the MNDNR's collected data.................which I believe to be flawed.

[leech~~]

2 hours ago, delcecchi said:

The DNR does try to sample anglers, sort of like political polling, as to what they have caught and what they have harvested.   It should be a fairly accurate system if the people polled tell the truth. 

Did ice fishermen really only harvest 5000 pounds of walleye this winter?  Or did they change the quota and I missed it.?

And I recall Bud showing up and giving speeches etc back in 2001 or whenever the negotiations over tribal harvest were ongoing. I sure thought at the time that he was trying to use Mille Lacs to overturn what happened in Wisconsin earlier. 

In fact, it seems to me that the whole mess in Wisconsin with the rednecks at the boat landings and making racist comments etc was a big factor in the Mille Lacs affair. 

So now anyone passionately concerned with the future of all our Natural resources are Racist Rednecks!

Maybe this thread should be moved to Silly Town now since the name calling has now broke out.

Edited February 12, 2016 by leech~~

[delcecchi]

Leech, did you ever watch the behavior of the protesters at the landings, back when the natives started spearing in Wisconsin?  I am old enough to have been watching TV news and reading the paper too.  It was pretty ugly. 

[theharvester]

What does that have to do with anything now ? All men created equal NOT!

[Sculpin]

Wow, you guys are going to town, I've been off the proverbial grid for awhile. Couple points of clarification.  The Natives are all scheduled in and out of specific landings, and fish are counted individually as they are brought in.  All the counting, measuring, scale sampling, etc. is done by the GLIFWC.  This is your tax dollars hard at work, they have all the best gear, new pick up's, boats, pontoons, air boats, etc. it's quite a display when they are totally rolling. They are also on expense, they stay in local hotels and motels. MN DNR does not count, nor engage in the process in any way. 

There are 35 creel stations on Mille Lacs, with each having what the DNR calls a "probability" attached, the
DNR lists the Cash's landing (west side) as the highest probability landing on the lake. There are three summer creel clerks that rotate throughout the stations, not only do they count fish, but they count boats, both fishing and pleasure, and try to guess how many folks are fishing out there. unlike some lakes, their clerks do not go on the lake to count fish, only in landings. There is one rotating clerk in the winter. The DNR says their creel data is accurate to within 20/30%  

Creel data contains the following: Observed fishing pressure, catch and kill, harvest and release, catch rates, size distribution, age structure, tag returns, fish sex info, and angler attitudes. The creel data is available for the creel year 2015, it is 3,000 pages long, basically 2500 more pages than the number of fish caught.     

I have not seen any winter creel data as of yet, but suspect there is no way they will even come close to the 5,000 lb. quota. Anecdotal evidence suggests a couple hundred slot fish, at best, have been harvested.

The Mille Lacs advisory group is currently contesting the creel data from 2015, it is primarily focused on the "mortality" number. Other folks have run models that suggest the whole mess was off by a mile. Time will tell.

Bud Grant has not been seen in the area.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Sculpin
spelling

[eyechoholic]

So the talk over the last several years is these young walleyes do not survive the first year. So what was so special about these 2013 youngsters were they born with special powers maybe they had cologne on that smelled terrible so big bad northern and bass and walleye didn't like to eat them. Or was it  just maybe there parents weren't swimming into nets while they were being made that cold ice filled spring. Perhaps there really wasn't a lot of young walleyes to begin with to survive the first year but the dnr told us so it must be true.

Edited February 13, 2016 by eyechoholic

[leech~~]

1 hour ago, eyechoholic said:

So the talk over the last several years is these young walleyes do not survive the first year. So what was so special about these 2013 youngsters were they born with special powers maybe they had cologne on that smelled terrible so big bad northern and bass and walleye didn't like to eat them. Or was it  just maybe there parents weren't swimming into nets while they were being made that cold ice filled spring. Perhaps there really wasn't a lot of young walleyes to begin with to survive the first year but the dnr told us so it must be true.

Great point!

[delcecchi]

Typically year classes and hatches are assessed by seining during the summer and electro fishing in the fall.

If people are going from the premise that all the numbers are lies and made up, for reasons unknown, then there is not much point in discussing the situation.  

[eyechoholic]

14 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

Typically year classes and hatches are assessed by seining during the summer and electro fishing in the fall.

If people are going from the premise that all the numbers are lies and made up, for reasons unknown, then there is not much point in discussing the situation.  

Actually questioning the way the dnr gets there data and theories is all the more reason for discussion. 

[leech~~]

10 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

Typically year classes and hatches are assessed by seining during the summer and electro fishing in the fall.

If people are going from the premise that all the numbers are lies and made up, for reasons unknown, then there is not much point in discussing the situation.  

Del, here's a good book for you to read. Pretty much the same premise on the whole Mille Lacs Walleye mystery.

-To much hook and line fishing?

-Hook and line Quotas not set right?

-Netting out all the breeder size fish?

-Netting doesn't hurt the amount of fish because they have a Quota?

-To many big fish in the lake eating the little ones? But some year classes aren't affected?

-Slots don't work or are not set right?

-Slots are a great tool?

-DNR is doing a great job with the lake?

-DNR doesn't know what they are doing?

-Muskies are eating all the Walleye?

-Bass are eating all the Walleye?

-No real way to get a good count of fish taken?

-The DNR take Creel data and know just how many fish are being taken?

-Yad. yad. yad!

 

[Weathertite]

All Anyone is looking for is Honesty , Open Discussion and FULL Disclosure. It is the only way that all sides can begin to understand and give feasible input that may help find a solution to the issues.

[delcecchi]

1 hour ago, Weathertite said:

All Anyone is looking for is Honesty , Open Discussion and FULL Disclosure. It is the only way that all sides can begin to understand and give feasible input that may help find a solution to the issues.

Wait a minute.  Folks are accusing the DNR and the bands of all sorts of nefarious conduct.   Who and what is the dishonesty and lack of full disclosure?    Maybe the DNR made a mistake using slots to control harvest but what exactly are you accusing folks of?    We have had people on this thread saying that netting took more fish than anglers.  Not true. 

Natives are not the problem.  Anglers are the problem.  Were slots the best choice to control harvest?  Were other choices acceptable to the local businesses and to anglers?  Well?

[leech~~]

14 minutes ago, delcecchi said:

Wait a minute.  Folks are accusing the DNR and the bands of all sorts of nefarious conduct.   Who and what is the dishonesty and lack of full disclosure?    Maybe the DNR made a mistake using slots to control harvest but what exactly are you accusing folks of?    We have had people on this thread saying that netting took more fish than anglers.  Not true. 

Natives are not the problem.  Anglers are the problem.  Were slots the best choice to control harvest?  Were other choices acceptable to the local businesses and to anglers?  Well?

Here we go all over again!