Walleye Season will close August 3rd on Mille Lacs

[Sculpin]

I have not been on an Eddy's launch, nor would I patronize them in any way. It is very common knowledge around the lake that the launches there are targeting walleyes. It has been happening for years. Bear in mind there is nothing illegal about the practice. Natives can have ten fish a day, any size, and because they continue to be below their quota, they can continue to harvest, however they wish.  

[delcecchi]

I have not been on an Eddy's launch, nor would I patronize them in any way. It is very common knowledge around the lake that the launches there are targeting walleyes. It has been happening for years. Bear in mind there is nothing illegal about the practice. Natives can have ten fish a day, any size, and because they continue to be below their quota, they can continue to harvest, however they wish.  

so if they are within the quota,  and are entitled to do what they are doing, why the snark about slaughter and "good stewards of the resource "? 

Maybe the NBMs  killing a limit and throwing back a bunch more are a bigger issue. Or DNR mismanagement with the ill conceived slot followed by blaming pike and smallies.

Edited September 24, 2015 by delcecchi

[Sculpin]

The "snark" as you refer to it, is the pent up emotions that have built up over the past 15 years or so, watching this debacle unfold. The Mille Lacs band is constantly reminding us about their conservation code, harvest for the elders, ceremonial harvest, their concern for the long term health of the lake, ad nauseam. It is nothing more than political posturing, economic posturing, and an effort to deflect attention from the whole mess. I think it's time that EVERYONE step up and do the right thing. There are harvest "quota's" and limits for each of us, but there comes a time when every conservation minded sportsman needs to look in the mirror and say enough. I could shoot 4 deer a couple years ago, but did not do so, never would, it's ridiculous. Now the DNR has that yoke around it's neck.   

I think I recalled this spring, when I believe you yourself made reference to some sort of relief when the Fon Du Lac got pushed out of Vermillion by the obviously conservation and economic minded Bois Forte.  This ugly little worm turns when it's suddenly "your" lake that is under assault. It's coming your way, so hang on, and enjoy the ride. They will be just as "entitled' at Vermillion.         

I would also add Del:  That when you so authoritatively and self assuredly say "whatever, they are still not the problem"' that you are in fact incorrect.

I think we can all agree that they have been a significant part of the problem, because they have been targeting a particular size fish, in a particular size gill net, by the 1,000's of tons, year after year after year.  Like sport anglers, they continued to haul out tons of fish. Never once did they protest, try to facilitate change, mesh size change, fish size change, species change, time of harvest change.   The DNR has acknowledged that that the targeted size harvest methodology was a significant part of the problem, and admittedly they still don't have a clue as to what the hell happened.

So, had the Tribes been perhaps better stewards of the resource, perhaps they could chest thump now and tell us all they told us so.  They have tons of resources at their disposal, their own DNR, CO's GLFW, etc. but they did nothing. It was greed, and easy "fishing" pure and simple. The WI. bans in particular, came for three to five days, got their tons, and went home. Once the tonnage was gone, they began to look toward Vermillion, Gull, Whitefish, etc. and I'll say again, they're coming, so hang on. 

 

   

[delcecchi]

Thousands of tons?! You need to get a grip. There are 8 bands who are allowed to harvest on Mille Lacs at the pleasure of the President according to the treaty which the USA signed with them.

Their quota is considerably less than the quota of the non band members. Their harvest is much less than the harvest of the sportsmen who fish the lake.  

The whole slot thing was a concoction of the dnr to placate the resort owners and business interests in the area.  Everyone wanted the anglers to catch a bunch and keep a few. A one or two fish limit wasn't going to be acceptable.   And to be fair, no one realized the effect that would have on recruitment. 

You do know that a thousand tons is two million pounds or three times the total annual harvest of the glory years.

 

[Sculpin]

 Get a grip ?? Do the math Del, it's all out there for your reading pleasure. They had taken over a million lb's by 2010, all nice slot fish, all of a size. That's  a pretty super catch rate on a per capita basis for literally MAYBE a thousand tribal members from the 8 bands.

 

In addition there is nothing in the treaty that calls out gill nets. If the band had to hook and line it like the rest of civilized society, they could  have harvested  MAYBE a tenth of their quota.  We need someone in the DNR that had a pair, and would step up and say NO.

 

I do not begrudge the Tribe their fish in any way, a deals a deal.  Go catch them, day and night, 365 days a year. They tried to sustain a hook and line fishery to run their commercial operation at Red, they could not do it, could not even come close for the most part. They dropped the gill nets back in. 

[delcecchi]

If you don't begrudge the bands their quota, why do you care how they harvest it? 

Red lake, most of it, belongs to the Red Lake Band. Totally different situation. The issue on Red was rampant poaching and black market sales.

On Mille Lacs, I think that between release mortality and illegal size fish winding up in a cooler or a frypan, there is a reasonable chance that the NBM harvest is/has been significantly higher than the DNR believes.

I am curious.   What are the chances of getting checked by a CO on an average fishing trip on Mille Lacs, summer and winter. Is there really much enforcement happening?

[delcecchi]

Turns out all the band fishing is well documented at http://glifwc.org/

with much detail at https://data.glifwc.org/spearing.reports/

which has the reports for netting and spearing in Mille Lacs as well as in Wisconsin and Michigan by year.  Way more data than one gets from the DNR. 

There was one interesting chart at http://glifwc.org/Fisheries/Inland/inland.html as relates to Mille Lacs. 

I am curious, what happened in 2003 and 2004 that the angler harvest was so low? 

Edited September 28, 2015 by delcecchi

[Sculpin]

It is my personal belief and experience, that your chances of getting checked by a C.O, on  Mille Lacs are far greater per fishing day than many other lakes in the state.  I have been checked MANY times both winter, and summer. There are currently three C.O's on the lake, and they patrol the area hard.  There are also the weed police, the DNR creel census people who rotate thru all the landings, and the Sheriffs water patrol. I have spent a week on Vermillion in the month of June for over 25 years, I have never been checked by a C.O.  I see the creel census people there almost yearly, and I  was checked twice this year. I'm sure there are plenty of folks whose experience varies, but I would never attempt an illegal fish in a "cooler" as you say,on either lake. I guess they would be crafty enough to look there. I think the illegal take   on Mille Lacs is insignificant, no more so than any other major walleye lake in the state. 

Not sure what happened to angler harvest in years 2003, and 2004. Could have been a couple years there when the slot simply was to restrictive, or the angler quota was set too high so it looks like an anomaly, or Leech or Winnie were hot, and everyone drove by. As you know, Mille Lacs can be a difficult lake to fish if the wind blows, or the weather on the first two weekends is miserable, a significant portion of angler harvest occurs the first month, then it's all down hill from there. The graph is also illustrative of the fact that the bands in fact exceeded angler harvest in a couple of years. Put into play the nebulous "hooking mortality"  and he Bands clearly won.  Not bad for a couple hundred folks, with a couple miles of gill nets, over a couple weekends. Vs. half a million hours for sport anglers.             

[Kyhl]

On Mille Lacs, I think that between release mortality and illegal size fish winding up in a cooler or a frypan, there is a reasonable chance that the NBM harvest is/has been significantly higher than the DNR believes.

I am curious.   What are the chances of getting checked by a CO on an average fishing trip on Mille Lacs, summer and winter. Is there really much enforcement happening?

I think the NBM harvest was significantly overstated by the DNR.  They used outdated assumptions to calculate the size of released fish.

Per an article in the ML Messanger, the DNR assumed that 66% of the fish being released are > 22" and that skewed their total weight calculation.

The reality is that a much smaller percentage of the released fish are over the harvest slot. The launches pooled their data to come up with this year's average size of a released fish. Given the number of fish involved in their counts I would venture to guess that their sample size is more accurate than the DNR's 66% figure that was based on a sample from years past.

The launch's 2015 experience was 5.19% of fish released were > 22".

That definitely skewed the DNR's weight calculation to be higher than reality.

Either way, I hope they make walleye officially C&R next year beginning 12/1/2015.

[delcecchi]

So you don't think a significant number of non-slot fish wind up in the frying pan on the ice?  I kept hearing on FM that it was certainly a problem on Red last winter.

So if only 5% of the released fish on the launches were over 22, what was the actual distribution?  
 

I will say one thing from looking at the chart.  Knowing what we know now, the quota for NBM and the bands was way too high the last 4 or 5 years.  When you go from a quote of 500,000 lb to 250,000 to 50,000 in three years it speaks for itself. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by delcecchi

[Sculpin]

You are very correct Kyhl. Karen McQuoid, a local business owner in Isle, who has a degree in statistics, was instrumental in trying to gather and compile this years  "real hooking mortality" numbers. The launch operators provided ACCURATE catch and release numbers through the very shortened season, and it was evident quite quickly that the DNR numbers are skewed to the point that they barely make sense.

In addition, the creel census information, given how it is gathered, has been suspect since day one, it's laughable.  Fishermen, given the fact that we are all for the most part liars, and exaggerators, come into the landings bragging about the days catch. Nobody EVER only gets 2 fish, it's always five, and they are all big, all the time, if they caught 5, the number is 7.  It's the worst statistical/analytical data gathering system possible. Early on, some people just like to goof on the creel people.  I see it at Red Lake, all the bragging, all the huge numbers, all the chest pounding. Hence, the HUGE mortality numbers.

It's doubtful that there will be a C&R season in 2015, they'll throw out some goofy bone.  It's going to be interesting to see how the fall test net numbers come in, they should be announced soon.         

I may not get this completely correct, but my understanding is that on Red Lake you can cook fish on the ice. That is not the case on Mille Lacs. I can tell you too, that I know lots of people who have skid/sleeper houses on the lake, and they would not consider cleaning, or cooking a fish on the lake. Perhaps I have ethical friends, but there seems to me to be far more concern for the overall fishery, than there is for a meal of illegal fish.

 

I think the average, long time fisherman on Mille Lacs understand the issues, and wants to do the right thing. Are their outlaws,? of course, always will be, sadly. But again, as the number of holes drilled out there got exponentially fewer with each passing year, the corresponding potential for  illegal harvest got smaller, a non issue. 

I think if it were an issue, our number crunching friends at the top secret statistical/analytical lab in the secret basement room of the DNR would dutifully "report" it, and by golly we could all stand up and trust them.         

[delcecchi]

Lets see.  Everyone lies about what they catch to the creel census folks even though they know it will affect the regs, but totally tells the truth about not engaging in eating questionable fish?  

BTW I looked in the regs and found this...

When I’m on waters with size restrictions different from statewide regulations,
can I eat fish that I caught and kept?
You may do so if:
• If you are on the ice, docked or moored to shore you may use any fish that you
legally kept from the same water body to prepare a meal. You can fillet the fish but
must retain the intact carcass, which must contain the head, dorsal fin and tail.
• You also may prepare a meal of fish using fillets packaged by a licensed fish packer.
Any fish caught and eaten on the same day count toward your daily bag limit.

Sure looks like you can fry them up.   

(and once eaten and the remains in a snow drift, be pretty hard to pin it on someone.  Just don't leave tracks to your house)

Given the "indians will net them all, thousands of tons,) mindset it would be pretty easy to talk yourself into not letting them go.

But hey, maybe you are right and the NBM are taking many fewer fish than the DNR thinks.  The results from test netting should tell some more.    It could be a slot problem and not especially an over harvest problem. 

[Sculpin]

Or as you said in the open water fishing forum:  "some people are like that, they get a bang out of getting stuff for free, like a bucket of fish. If the bite on that lake goes away, they will move to another." (Natives) Pretty prophetic !!

We can debate the Mille Lacs debacle until we're all blue in the face, but the" bite", as you say has gone away.

Now the bands will move on, and once they are on another lake, everyone will come crawling out of their warm comfortable cocoon of indifference and denial, and start to whine, and threaten, and petition....to no avail

Good luck next spring. You've never seen two miles of gillnets,all neatly strung in row   ....    

[Kyhl]

1. The results from test netting should tell some more.
2. It could be a slot problem and not especially an over harvest problem.

1. The results will tell what number remains, not how we got to that number.
2. The Blue Ribbon panel suggests that it is a slot problem. 
   1. Will a shut down fix that?  I don't know.
   2. Will a hatchery fix that?  No but time will fix it and the timing will match the grand opening and it will be deemed a success even if it wasn't.  Sore one for more unnecessary Gov't bureacracy.

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Kyhl

[delcecchi]

Keep stocking until the cannibal big walleye die of natural causes.  Carefully do away with slots, and limit the catch by other means.  Declare victory.  

That is my guess how it will go.  The bands will continue to net, typically around 25% of the allowable "safe" harvest, although I think the court ruled they are entitled to half. 

It will be interesting to see how "sportsmen" react to the new era of no slots and limits of 1 fish, or maybe fishing only 3 or 4 days a week for walleye.