Expected worst Deer harvest in 20 years!

[pinkfloyd4ever]

171 after a solid week, no buck sign in fact our total sightings for 3 of us were 7 over the first week. not one buck on trail cam, no sign of the rut even taking place.

We looked back over the years and typically averaged about 14 sightings over the first week, with the knowledge that of those 14 some were repeat offenders. Of the 7, two were presumed to be the same doe and fawn.

Wolves and wolf sign again just like last year, this year our party had 1 tag but haven't seen one yet. Working on a presumption that they pack had run through there prior to opening day.

The weather this past week until friday also sucked, strong winds and snow really limits deer movement too IMO, but the lack of sign was really frustrating.

I think that there was an over harvest coupled with an increase in 4 legged predators and consecutive awful winters, but my season was carp- still beats working though

[CANOPY SAM]

I'm in with Early Riser on the Hunter's Choice option. A large portion of NW MN is bucks only this year, and I hate to say it, but the general mentality in this area is fill the tags and fill the freezer. This is only going to result in every single animal with visible antler being shot immediately.

The "pantload" comment made me laugh out loud. That's funny stuff right there.

I'm not against people sharing their thoughts and opinions. Not at all. But honestly, is it realistic to blame the ENTIRE issue on the game managers?

Yes, I believe in, and support the DNR. I know many of the people that work in these offices. Most of them are a LOT smarter then I am. I know they have the resource's best interest at heart. Will they get every decision right? Can they possibly know the exact numbers of every species of animal in every hunting zone throughout the state? I think common sense would tell us all, No. But I trust they are doing their best.

I cannot imagine what our state would look like now without their intervention and management of the our resources.

I had a discussion with a fellow that was deeply entrenched in the Mille Lacs issue on another forum. His approach was very similar to many here. Anger, finger pointing, spiteful comments, blaming, etc., and I understand his passion over the issue. However, the reality is, if folks here really do want to express their concerns, and actually be heard by the folks who are in charge of making these decisions, they'll have to be able to articulate these concerns, back them up with real facts and evidence, and express them with an objective opinion, rather then with bitterness and frustration.

It's the truth guys. The process will work, but level heads will prevail. Those that rant and rave that the decision makers are idiots will simply be dismissed from the discussion.

Stay positive and good things will happen with time. But it's not going to happen overnight. That should be very obvious.

[smsmith]

Stay positive and good things will happen with time. But it's not going to happen overnight. That should be very obvious.

Okay, how much time? It would seem to me that the DNR has over a decade to get the "kinks worked out". Harvest has trended significantly downward for 10 of the last 11 years I believe. It appears to me (a biased guy who likes to see deer when he's hunting), that the goal is a very small deer herd (speaking relatively over the last 15-20 years). Apparently, that is "ok" with quite a few deer hunters.

As long as the majority of hunters are "ok" with total harvests between 113K-170K...I'd say don't worry a bit.

[maxx rpm]

docc8, I am in 178 as well, and was the best year I have had in the past four years. Most does, most bucks. Driving down the roads, same amount of deer in same fields. Saw all my deer in mid day. I am not seeing a lack of deer. Can't explain your situation, but goes to show differences in even the same zones.

I am not in favor of this "everyone is ENTITLED to a big buck, opening morning" deal that is going on. It is work and luck. I guess I was never spoiled by hunting great areas. Small bucks, few and far between, some does, when you would draw a permit. Happy getting out, enjoying the time in the woods, and always felt as though I get what I get. Some people on farms had choices of bucks, great for them. I had less choices hunting public land, and it makes one more appreciative when you get one. It confuses me as to how only shooting bucks this year will make more bucks for next year. And like someone said, okay, more spikes/forks, well they will get shot as well next year. Not sure what the dnr is trying to do here. If people don't think there is enough deer, don't shoot any. No does, no bucks, and there will be more next year. Make it hunter choice for the happy ones like myself, and everyone will be happy. "Well our group only saw 20 deer so far", 20 deer?? Wholy dump, I would be greatful to see such a herd. Makes me wonder why so few people wonder what it is all about, just that huge buck? Or about being out in the woods?

[Don Brinkman]

In response to Don's statement above, which seems to be a prevalent opinion here on FM, and on other forums, I would ask this. First please know that I don't know the answer to this question myself...at least in terms of Wisconsin.

If the harsh winters, and wolf population increase are of no consequence to the low deer numbers we're now seeing, and our alleged incompetent land managers in the state of Minnesota are the only reason our deer herd is suffering so badly, then how can you explain the gross reductions in deer herds to both the states east and west of us as well? Or at least in North Dakota?

Are the game and fish managers in Wisconsin and North Dakota all so miserably bad at their jobs that they are all causing a major big game reduction thru poor management practices in all our neighboring states as well? Are they all "in" on a secret agenda to systematically take away one of our prized natural resources?

The truth is, what "Fever" says above is exactly correct. There may have been a few poor decisions in regard to previous year's particular harvest levels in particular areas, but there is absolutely no question that the overall decline in our deer herd, and neighboring state's deer herds, are the result of a COMBINATION of factors, many of which are completely outside of the DNR's, and Game and Fish Dept's control.

The "let's find a scapegoat" witch hunt mentality has got to stop.

It's so easy to hide in the shadows and take cheap shots at those that have the courage and desire to lead, and make positive change. It's cowardly, and does absolutely nothing to improve our situation.

Please, do us ALL a favor. Keep the negativity, blame and shame stuff to yourselves. For those of us that can actually see the forest for the trees, your constant negative blaming is falling on deaf ears.

I love the earlier statements on this page. Be a part of the solution, or please keep your unproductive comments to yourselves.

Deer numbers were going south long before the last 2 winters, and I do think wolves have allot to do with fawn survival. And there numbers should be kept in check. I gave up rifle hunting in the rifle zone I used to hunt over 5 years ago because of the way I seen it being managed and switched to bow hunting the metro area.

I spent a couple weeks grouse hunting, same place I used to Deer hunt and I actually seen more deer this year then I have in the last 5 or so, I credited this to the wolf hunting and the DNR cut back on doe permits. They seemed to survive winter just fine.

As far as game and fish managers go I don't know anything about Wisconsin or the Dakotas, but the manager who used to be in charge of Minnesota deer management publicly stated in the St. Paul pioneer press a few years back his name was Lou Cornicelli that the days of Deer hunters going in the woods and seeing 2-3 deer are over, they publicly stated they wanted to reduce the overall deer population by 25%.

That is why we are in the situation we are in today. I don't remember any deer hunters complaint there were to many deer. More likely some no hunting citizens and auto insurance lobbyist were complaining about car deer accidents, and instead of putting up fence or some other way to reduce accidents they decided to decimate our deer herd.

One more thingt last years weather used to be the norm, you should expect cold and snow from November until end of April.

[Old Dewjabber]

Here's my 2 cents. Quit have the gun season during the rut!

How bout not opening up bow till gun season. Those bucks never see rut either! Outlawing trail cams so people have the same chance as those who don't.

[jay83196]

Why don't people use a knife jump from a tree and stab the deer! Be a man don't need a gun! This conversation has gone stupid.

[96trigger]

What he said... The number of bucks taken with a bow is a fraction of what gets taken with a gun. I don't see moving the season back as doing much either, the bucks will chase all of November until the last doe comes into estrus. I don't think it would have the impact people think it would. My trail cams show as much or more daytime movement after the firearm season in late November than any other time in the year. After this season, it won't be a lot colder than what we just hunted in either.

[docc8]

Marx. I suspect you don't have the wolf population that we do. I had a pack come through about a 200 yards from me. I never saw them but I suspect 5-7. Heard them every night and awfully close to us. 3 years ago I was passing on 8 pointers and a couple young 10 pointers. It's really scary how this can happen in 2 years. The wolves will leave secondary to lack of food. Hope they don't come your way. We have even noticed the lack of animals period such as squirrels and other animals. Kind of crazy to nothing at all in the stand. Btw we hunt hard. Glad someone is doing well in our area. Good luck everyone. It will get better but probably not for 3-5 years

[Old Dewjabber]

This conversation has gone stupid.

I agree. That's why I made the statement!!! Technology has changed the way people hunt with fewer and fewer hunters every year! Less and less places also!

Don't knock me because I only spend 2 weekends max time involved in deer hunting with a GUN possibly during peak of the RUT.

Sick of some bow hunters trying to control or have there way so the can harvest trophies. Can't eat the antlers!

[laker1]

When all said and done in the past and in the future,the average hunter is going to shoot a deer only 33-40% of the time statewide.

Most studies I seen when wolf populations are pretty much saturated with a pack of 6 wolves they will average 3 deer per square mile. Now that will vary some of coarse.

Look at zone 172 hunters took 15.5 deer/square mile a few years ago. Last year around 3 deer/sq mile.

Yes wolves probably took three and hunters 17,combined that is way over harvest. Throw in two hard winters. At present zone 172 population is very low.

[leech~~]

Outlawing trail cams so people have the same chance as those who don't.

Let me see if I can make this real easy for you?

Just because you take a picture of a Vikings cheerleader, it just means shes there.

It doesn't mean your going to get her! Get it!

It's all in the hunt man!

[laker1]

Trail cams do help at times. That doesn't mean outlaw them.

Overall tho,equipment changes over the years has made the hunter more effective.

Warmer clothing,better deer stands,better rifles-scopes(go back to the 60's most people didn't have scopes yet),deer scents, deer knowledge,food plots,maps etc..

I truly believe these make the hunter more efficient than years ago. Use to be if you owned a pair of old Air Force white bunny boots you really had something. I suppose nobody but me is old enough to remember Bunny boots?

[jay83196]

Everything evolves, also more competition less animals/fish makes it harder.

[Todd Caswell]

No doubt the deer population is down from a few years ago, is it too low now? Maybe, was it too high at it's peak? Maybe. Bottom line there are deer to be seen and harvested in every portion of the state, if your not seeing deer or sign MOVE. We are blessed with tens of thousands of acres of public land in Mn. and ALOT of it won't have a foot print on it all season if it's more than a mile from the closest road. If more people treated there deer season like fishing they would have alot more luck. If you were to take a weeks vacation to fish would you go out to the same point, toss out your anchor and sit there for the week if you weren't marking or seeing fish? Hellll NO, well if your not seeing deer or deer sign, then move.. Sometimes you don't have to move far to find what your looking for..

[laker1]

It average deer hunter wants to get his deer and get out of the woods as fast as he can. People hunt the first weekend and many quit after that.

[kingr]

My Dad and his 2 partners bought our deer camp in 1982. Since then it has grown to 18 on opening weekend with all of us kids growing up. I say opening weekend because the majority of the guys now only hunt 1-3 days total. We have about 7-8 of us that stay the entire 9 days. We have kept journals since the beginning. There was a couple years in the 80's where they didn't shoot a deer. The all time high was 13 in the early 2000's. The camp average for the last 32 years is 6, this year we shot 5. Last year we shot 3. We all hunt on the Tamarac refuge. Game cameras, fancy stands, 4-wheelers are all illegal. Wolves have been present since the 90's.

Do your homework, scout and put hours in the field and it will pay off. Like Todd said, it's no different than fishing, except when there's snow, it's easier to figure out if they're actually there or not.

[kelly-p]

From an article in the Duluth Tribune.

Quote:

Sam Cook column: Hunters reflect on a lean season

Quote:

Perhaps Josh and Jeremy Graves, the 41-year-old twins at the Graves camp, appreciated being at the shack more than most. Two or three weeks ago, both were in Afghanistan. They were finishing a six-month deployment as engineers with the 148th Fighter Wing of the Minnesota Air National Guard in Duluth.

“I’m just glad to be home,” Jeremy said.

The silence after his words left room for a lot of interpretation. Someone across the room asked if the two brothers had been in danger where they were stationed.

“Yeah,” Jeremy said. “There was shelling.”

That was all he said. The room grew quiet for a bit. Finally, Mike Graves spoke.

“Kind of puts the deer hunting all in perspective, doesn’t it?” he said.

[uffdapete]

Well said Canopy.

Fish and game management is a science where you apply the best techniques you can.

Most DNR employees are very well educated, trained and even more passionate about their work. They do what they do because they enjoy it.

And believe it or not, very few have any "agenda" other than making the best recommendations they can using the best science they have.

Also keep in mind that many times rules and regs are set by those you elect, not by trained professionals paid to manage resources.

P.S.

Thanks too Kelly for the piece from the Duluth paper. My son also returned a year ago from there.... with some PTSD. He seems to be dealing with it okay but is reluctant to talk much about his time there and probably will be for a few years.

[laker1]

Agree on the DNR statement,the employees are dedicated individuals with no big DNR plot. They just want to do what is best. Yes sometimes mistakes are made. Overall they have done a great job.

I do wish Wildlife would listen to the public a little more and the public get involved and actually talk one on one to DNR staff. Instead of just talking here.

[BLACKJACK]

I will add, that if the population isn't high enough, it will never work, and that the DNR must take caution in handing out too many doe tags so the population doesn't crash.

Bingo!!! Its fine to talk about APR's and bigger bucks but if you have a low deer population/a zone where you have to apply for doe permits, and then you implement APR's, you're going to pizz off a lot of hunters, drive them out of the sport, if they don't have an at least an opportunity to shoot a deer, any deer.

[BLACKJACK]

Here's my 2 cents. Quit have the gun season during the rut! Let these bucks at least get the chance to breed the does. I even think a buck lottery system should get implemented. At least in SW MN do it. Having the slug season during the rut is just plain stupid in my opinion. And people wonder why we never get the "monster bucks". Hmm, I wonder why?

Not a bad idea, would make the 'big buck hunters' happy by limiting the buck kill and would also make the 'average Joe' hunter happy because he'd still be able to get a tag and hunt. The downside would be colder weather for a later season.

[nofishfisherman]

I do wish Wildlife would listen to the public a little more and the public get involved and actually talk one on one to DNR staff. Instead of just talking here.

For those that want a voice and want to get involved you might want to check this out. Perfect chance to get involved and have a voice.

DNR Deer Goal Setting Volunteers

[CANOPY SAM]

Agree on the DNR statement,the employees are dedicated individuals with no big DNR plot. They just want to do what is best. Yes sometimes mistakes are made. Overall they have done a great job.

I do wish Wildlife would listen to the public a little more and the public get involved and actually talk one on one to DNR staff. Instead of just talking here.

It's happening Laker1, but as I stated earlier, it's going to take time. These issues aren't going to be solved overnight.

I believe someone said, "How much time?", following my last post. Answer, as much time as it takes.

I don't recall the exact years, I think it was 98' or 99' when they closed the season up north of us (along the Canadian border). The deer herd had been decimated by the winter/spring of 96'/97'. Hunting pressure and wolf depredation had very little to do with that crash.

They went for a short time with a bucks only season, but I believe it was only a few short years and the deer herd rebounded nicely, and now there seems to be very good numbers of deer in the area.

Patience, tact, perseverance, level-thinking, willingness to make a few sacrifices. It's going to take all of this combined to make positive change.

It took many years to get Upper Red Lake back on track. That took extraordinary patience, and a LOT of people from several different backgrounds to finally bring about a positive outcome. In the end, pretty much everyone had to admit their guilt in bringing about the crash. And once everyone realized that there was no particular person, or group of people to blame, then they were able to get down to the real work and get it all turned around.

Set aside the blame guys. People make mistakes. If you're going to live your entire life simply wallowing in bitterness over how many "other" people have screwed up your life/hunting/fishing, people as a whole are going to stop listening to your complaining, and you're going to spend the majority of your life alone.

It's refreshing to see some of you pointing directly at the solution here. Thanks for posting!

[SmellEsox]

Agree on the DNR statement,the employees are dedicated individuals with no big DNR plot. They just want to do what is best. Yes sometimes mistakes are made. Overall they have done a great job.

I do wish Wildlife would listen to the public a little more and the public get involved and actually talk one on one to DNR staff. Instead of just talking here.

I agree with your statement and others that DNR Wildlife folks making management decisions are good and intelligent folks. The disconnect between hunters and them, is that they are trained more as ecologists. They want fewer deer than hunters do. Way fewer. It is how they were trained in college. Fewer deer is better socially and ecologically. And they are taking it to the extreme here in MN. They are great deer managers. They just have a philosophy that is counter to what most hunters in MN want. As was stated in the past, some deer managers still wanted IH and even early antlerless seasons in some areas that have been hammered for years. So yes, they are good at managing deer according to their philosophy. Not necessarily for the avid deer hunter.

[BuckSutherland]

For those that want a voice and want to get involved you might want to check this out. Perfect chance to get involved and have a voice.

DNR Deer Goal Setting Volunteers

I signed up.

[BLACKJACK]

I've slogged thru all these posts since last week and the one conclusion I can draw is that people are passionate about their deer hunting!!!!

One factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the longer deer seasons nowadays. A few years ago the DNR lengthened the seasons, didn't limit you to a certain weekend, gave you more 'opportunity' to hunt more days, with the idea that your license and zone - Managed, Hunter Choice, etc - would be the limiting factor, you could only shoot the number of deer that your license allowed.

Nice idea, it gives you more days to hunt, but it also puts more pressure on the deer, if you're a big buck hunter, it give you more days to sort thru the bucks. Even if all you want is a doe for the freezer, it gives you more days to accomplish that. Not sure the DNR has accounted for that additional pressure in their calcs.

[Jameson]

In times of rebuilding the herd splitting the hunters up into separate seasons can help reduce the pressure on the deer. Wonder if it was considered this year, or next?

[CaptainMusky]

Blackjack, that is an interesting point that I was thinking about as well. I remember when the slug season was 2 days and a second 4 day season.

Doe permits good only in your area. You had to hunt only in your zone for bucks.

Now its a free for all. I personally like that chance to hunt anywhere in the state and just follow the rules of that area, but I have to think at least in the slug zone it has lead to a larger harvest.

[hockeybc69]

Absolutely positively there is a correlation of lowering harvests comparing the old zone 4, and moving to zone 2 and full 9 day season.

Zone 4 you used to have to pick a weekend to hunt. Either first or second weekend. There was the All Season license which allowed hunting over both weekends, but that was limited in numbers.

So in zone 4 we used to have a split of hunters in the woods. First weekend had a group of people, second weekend had a different group of people. Everyone was split, so pressure on deer was FAR less. Plus there was 5 days closed to gun hunting between the seasons.

Switching to Zone 2, all of a sudden the entire hunting population of the zone 4 could now not only hunt both weekends, but also the 9 straight days. Thats a HUGE increase in pressure on deer, and only leads to one thing... A lot more deer that got shot, that likley had a much better chance of survival with the old zone 4 regs.

Since day one of zone 2, I have not been a fan at all of it. And we have seen a very dramatic change in hunting since then.

PA240 used to hover around 5000 deer harvested annually. Since the onset of zone 2 in 2007, our harvest has dropped every year accept one season. We are now down 35% in annual harvest from 2007 to 2013... wait till the 2014 results come in. It will approach a 50% decrease in harvest in only 7 hunting seasons.

But I guess there is no problem. Its wind, rain, corn, wolves and severe winters that are all the cause of the steep decline in deer harvest....