Expected worst Deer harvest in 20 years!

[picksbigwagon]

Iowa hunters were not happy, at least at the Bent Rim, with the management of the deer herd, they were livid with the lack of tags, etc. I am guessing that this year will be worse..........

[SmellEsox]

Iowa hunters were not happy, at least at the Bent Rim, with the management of the deer herd, they were livid with the lack of tags, etc. I am guessing that this year will be worse..........

So the hunters were mad because they thought there were plenty of deer and they wanted more tags? Man I wish we could get to that place here in MN.

[leechlake]

lack of tags? C'mon to Minnesota we have so many deer that everyone gets a tag, maybe just a buck tag but you get a tag. After you don't kill a buck during "gun" season then you can give it a whirl with your muzzy and then you can kill a doe or a buck. Let's throw in that we're north of Iowa and get worse Winters and it makes even less sense.

For some reason in So Dak where we hunt there is a drawing. Except this year you could buy doe tags but the buck tags are a drawing and this year they had a lot fewer tags available to manage the herd. See 4-15 bucks a day on most days. Also no "party" hunting aka cross tagging. When you are looking at a smallish buck on the first day you don't shoot it because then you're done, can't shoot it and then use your buddy's tag for Mr Big later in the day or season.

So here in Minnesota you get a "Participation" tag every year. You may not see a buck let alone a deer but you got to go out and enjoy hanging out at deer camp.

[smsmith]

You may not see a buck let alone a deer but you got to go out and enjoy hanging out at deer camp.

Ultimately, is that what it comes down to do in MN? Deer hunting has never been viewed with high expectations for the hunt itself, but the social aspect of hanging out with your buddies is a guaranteed good time?

[leechlake]

I agree that for me it's about the experience much more than killing a deer. I mentioned South Dakota, we also get to hang out and experience Deer Camp with the bonus of seeing deer. This year I didn't draw a tag and pondered going anyway but it's 400 miles so I hunted in Minnesota with my family.

Not all feel like I do and I wanted to see and kill a deer when I was younger and in a different stage in my hunting career. Gotta take those folks into account too. If a fisherman was going to Fish Camp would he be happy fishing a lake with very few walleyes but it had a ten fish limit and he caught zero or would he go to a lake that had a lot of walleyes and a 3 fish limit and catch 20 fish? Experience at camp is the same but the fishing part is just plain better in the second example.

[smsmith]

I agree that for me it's about the experience much more than killing a deer. I mentioned South Dakota, we also get to hang out and experience Deer Camp with the bonus of seeing deer. This year I didn't draw a tag and pondered going anyway but it's 400 miles so I hunted in Minnesota with my family.

Not all feel like I do and I wanted to see and kill a deer when I was younger and in a different stage in my hunting career. Gotta take those folks into account too. If a fisherman was going to Fish Camp would he be happy fishing a lake with very few walleyes but it had a ten fish limit and he caught zero or would he go to a lake that had a lot of walleyes and a 3 fish limit and catch 20 fish? Experience at camp is the same but the fishing part is just plain better in the second example.

Thanks for your insight. I'll agree that for me hunting is much more about the experience than it is about killing a deer. However, seeing deer and having the chance to kill one (whether taken or not) is indeed important. I've come to enjoy passing a slam dunk shot much more than pulling the trigger, but when opportunities to pass on deer are few and far between...the joy of being out there is much less...for me anyway.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

So here in Minnesota you get a "Participation" tag every year. You may not see a buck let alone a deer but you got to go out and enjoy hanging out at deer camp.

Thats all fine and dandy for those that have a deer camp and have the annual get together with folks that you see once a year. We hunt as a family and stay at the same cabin that the same family stays at throughout the summer.

Its another weekend at the cabin for us. So the hunt IS the anticipation and expectation for our group.

[leechlake]

just to clarify my "Participation" tag comment isn't meant as a positive. Kind of like every kid needs to get a trophy at most sporting events. Issue less tags via a drawing.

I'm in the same boat hockey. We spend 15-20 weekends a year at cabin fishing, hunting, or just hanging out. All of those give us the social thing that we also get deer hunting. Wish there was more deer and I think one thing that would help is no Over the Counter tags. Look at Colorado elk vs New Mexico. CO is OTC NM is a draw. Which one has bigger elk on average?

[Getanet]

Leech, if I'm following correctly, you're stumping for a scenario in which MN residents would have to enter a lottery to hunt deer, any deer, in MN?

In other words, if you don't get drawn, you're S.O.L and don't get to hunt that year?

[leechlake]

Yes I would be for a drawing. Maybe some years everyone would get drawn in years higher deer number years when deer numbers are down some guys would be out of luck. I think before something like that is done though that cross tagging aka "party" hunting should not be allowed anymore. You fill your tag and you're done.

[SmellEsox]

Leech, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that drastic of a plan is necessary for MN. We can have a better hunting experience by just having more deer on the landscape. We do that by being more conservative handing out antlerless tags.

[SmellEsox]

But we have to raise population goals for our DNR follow first. And then second make sure they have a better way of estimating how many deer are out there.

[smsmith]

But we have to raise population goals for our DNR follow first. And then second make sure they have a better way of estimating how many deer are out there.

Good luck with that

[InTheNorthwoods]

Leech, if I'm following correctly, you're stumping for a scenario in which MN residents would have to enter a lottery to hunt deer, any deer, in MN?

In other words, if you don't get drawn, you're S.O.L and don't get to hunt that year?

I like that idea too. Lots of states do it, including North Dakota, South Dakota, etc. It is the only way to control deer harvest numbers. As it stands now, anyone can buy a tag and shoot a deer anywhere they want. You can't control harvest if you have no controls on the number of tags/hunters afield. That is the biggest issue facing MN right now - getting deer numbers to acceptable levels.

If there are enough deer, there will be enough tags for people to draw.

I'd also get rid of party tagging. I.e., your deer, your tag. You shoot and tag one, you don't carry a gun any longer.

That is just the system I'd prefer. I know this has gone round'n'round here, and many people will argue against me. I'm fine with that, and I am fine with not being able to shoot a deer with my gun every year (I don't do that now).

[smsmith]

I like that idea too. Lots of states do it, including North Dakota, South Dakota, etc. It is the only way to control deer harvest numbers. As it stands now, anyone can buy a tag and shoot a deer anywhere they want. You can't control harvest if you have no controls on the number of tags/hunters afield. That is the biggest issue facing MN right now - getting deer numbers to acceptable levels.

If there are enough deer, there will be enough tags for people to draw.

I'd also get rid of party tagging. I.e., your deer, your tag. You shoot and tag one, you don't carry a gun any longer.

That is just the system I'd prefer. I know this has gone round'n'round here, and many people will argue against me. I'm fine with that, and I am fine with not being able to shoot a deer with my gun every year (I don't do that now).

I'm one guy that won't argue with you

I've now gone 3 years without shooting a deer in MN, so the prospect of not being able to take one for a year or two due to a lottery of some sort doesn't put me off at all. It all comes down to what people value. A good quality hunt or being able to go hunting every year with a less than desirable deer herd. I'll take the quality every time. Like you said though...plenty of others will opt for "choice B"

[InTheNorthwoods]

Our deer manager makes me wonder what is going on......

Agreed to stabilize our herd via Stakeholders process for permit area 240 in spring 2007. Chose to keep intensive harvest for 2 more years after that. Why?

After 2014 is complete, our harvest will be down nearly 50% since 2007. Far from a stabilized harvest/poulation......

And I dont want to hear its because of the harsh winters the past 2 years. Its not because of wolves.

Its been in a downward spiral since 2007.... Why? HOw?

Because people who shoot anything to fill tags, will always find a way to get more tags to fill. It doesn't matter if they could get 5 tags, 3 tags, or 1 tag - they will still shoot as many deer as they feel they need/want so long as they can find them (and its not tough to find three deer in a season if you work at it - whether there are 50 deer a square mile or 5 deer a square mile). Party hunters who whack and stack deer, just get mom/sister/grandma/neighbor/priest/Mark Dayton a tag and fill it for them. The change is that, now, when you kill 3 deer, there are 2 deer left on the block instead of 47. When they run out of deer on their "block", they drive 30 miles and push the woods to shoot as many as they can on the next "block" over.

I have seen this happen a lot. I am not complaining, it is what it is - a lot of these people are good people I know; friends, family, neighbors. It is simply a reality under our current regulations.

[snowfighter]

Go back to the old days. 9 day season every other year either sex.

[leechlake]

One hunter shooting multiple deer is a large problem in my opinion. Maybe ranking a close second to weather severity. This year one guy in our party had a doe permit (why they even gave any our in our area 259 perplexes me). Here are some real life examples of how deer are annually over harvested and the system makes it pretty difficult for people to get caught breaking the law.

1. One of the guys suggested my son come with us so "we" would have another doe tag.

2. One year I lost my archery license. I went to get a duplicate and now I had a replacement tag. Found my lost license a few weeks later. Dawned on me that I had two tags if I chose to roll the dice and break the law.

3. Many people don't register their deer. Now that it's not done at a Reg Station in most of the state you can load the deer up in your truck and legally don't have to register it even if you leave your zone or doe permit area. Get it home in garage and butcher it. What the heck go whack another one a few days later and use the same tag, even with the dates notched

out.

4. Party hunting. Bill leaves deer camp and his buddy's tell him to leave his tag. Harry shoots Bill's buck the next am.

5. Party hunting. People legally shoot others deer. "Did you hear Harry got two bucks and two does this year (one is a fawn)."

6. Have wife and grandma get a license/tag. Grandma is 83 and uses a walker. Wife never shot a gun in her life.

I'm sure that there are many other sketchy/illegal ways that people hurt our deer population. I'm positive the DNR has a factor built into their harvest data that "attempts" to take this into account. The system is so open to any unethical and "creative" ideas to make it easy to break the law that it's pathetic.

[NWKR]

1. One of the guys suggested my son come with us so "we" would have another doe tag.

4. Party hunting. Bill leaves deer camp and his buddy's tell him to leave his tag. Harry shoots Bill's buck the next am.

6. Have wife and grandma get a license/tag. Grandma is 83 and uses a walker. Wife never shot a gun in her life.

The sad thing is many people do not even realize that doing the above are illegal. They are no better than someone shooting a buck at night with a spotlight.

[Getanet]

Why did you leave #3 off the list?

Most hunters are ethical and follow the law. Folks that knowingly break the law will likely continue to do so, not matter what regulations are put in place.

[InTheNorthwoods]

The sad thing is many people do not even realize that doing the above are illegal. They are no better than someone shooting a buck at night with a spotlight.

Oh, I'm pretty sure almost everyone knows these things are not legal - they just don't think there is a risk of getting caught, and based on it being legal to party hunt, people assume there is an implied acceptance of these practices.

Just today I had a person tell me that they shot 4 deer in a one deer area in one day. One for his wife, two for a buddy, and he tagged one. It sounded to me like he was in the field alone. I didn't know this person well, yet he was comfortable telling me this as if it was just the way everyone does things. (*edit - I have no proof this is true, or if it was bragging, so I really can't do anything about it).

In my opinion, if you take away the ability of shooting a deer legally for another person (cross tagging), I think you will see a shift in mentality regarding these currently illegal practices that are (again, in my opinion) believed to be acceptable by many people because "what difference does it really make who's name is on the tag, or if they were here - it is legal to shoot a deer for someone else". I think people believe that when they buy a tag, they are buying the right to a deer, and not that the tag is just an opportunity for that person to hunt a deer.

[leechlake]

what happened to the old metal tags that once you locked them they didn't come off. Then we had the sticky tags that once you clasped them closed you couldn't re-open. Now you tie a sting through it and tie it on and you can move it from deer to deer if you chose to. I know they went to that because the machines at the store didn't use that expensive sticky tape.

My point is that some of these systems we've moved to have made it easier for scofflaws to shoot more deer. For invasive species we started with stickers, then inspections, and now you have to take an on line class. With the deer hunting we're getting so lax on some aspects of keeping things on the up and up. It doesn't square with logic unless we want more dead deer and less of a population.

[smsmith]

Oh, I'm pretty sure almost everyone knows these things are not legal - they just don't think there is a risk of getting caught, and based on it being legal to party hunt, people assume there is an implied acceptance of these practices.

Just today I had a person tell me that they shot 4 deer in a one deer area in one day. One for his wife, two for a buddy, and he tagged one. He was in the field alone. I didn't know this person well, yet he was comfortable telling me this as if it was just the way everyone does things.

In my opinion, if you take away the ability of shooting a deer legally for another person (cross tagging), I think you will see a shift in mentality regarding these currently illegal practices that are (again, in my opinion) believed to be acceptable by many people because "what difference does it really make who's name is on the tag, or if they were here - it is legal to shoot a deer for someone else". I think people believe that when they buy a tag, they are buying the right to a deer, and not that the tag is just an opportunity for that person to hunt a deer.

I'd agree that most folks probably know those things are illegal, but there are a great many who do not.

On your other points I agree completely

[Borch]

It's safe to say that many people are frustrated over the current situation and how it's been managed, (or not managed depending on your viewpoint). There are a lot of different goals when we go into the woods based on why we hunt. I've read through a few pages and I disagree with some, agree with some and some are just plain crazy talk based on my "opinion". But to each their own.

I hunted in zone 156 and the first weekend was hunting in the woods for 21 hours that weekend and didn't see a single deer. There was buck sign everywhere but no movement and very few shots fired nearby. I was wondering if there were even a single deer around the area anymore. Last weekend I only hunted Sunday morning and I saw 5 deer in less than 2 hours plus a lot of tracks int he snow. I shot a young buck for the freezer which I'm fine with as I like eating venison and have plenty of bigger horns in a box in my shed already.

We have a hard enough time getting youth and family into the woods as it is. I'd hate to make it a tougher job by having young or new hunters having to sit out for one or more years at a time due to not getting drawn. By the same token kids and new hunters like to see some deer when they are out in the woods. Been through that with turkey hunting and needing to go out of state to get our spring hunting fix.

[smsmith]

It doesn't square with logic unless we want more dead deer and less of a population.

You have nailed it right there IMHO...just that I'd replace "we" with the MN DNR.

[mntatonka]

1. One of the guys suggested my son come with us so "we" would have another doe tag.

[Don Brinkman]

Yes I would be for a drawing. Maybe some years everyone would get drawn in years higher deer number years when deer numbers are down some guys would be out of luck. I think before something like that is done though that cross tagging aka "party" hunting should not be allowed anymore. You fill your tag and you're done.

The only problem with this, is they would sell 5000000 lottery tickets.

[InTheNorthwoods]

You have a better system in mind to stop this minority?

[jbell1981]

mntatonka:

#1 is illegal and you are proving others points by not knowing this.

#5 is not poaching. Perfectly legal to party hunt as long as the others in the party are hunting with you and not sitting at home.

[leechlake]

Better way? Good question and I guess my answer which I'm going to keep simple since I don't want to spend an hour typing here. It seems that in the past 5 years or so there has been a huge emphasis on catching people that bait deer. I don't know the exact penalty but it's pretty harsh. Every time I hear the local radio guy interview a Game Warden (old school for CO) they always talk about baiting. They fly around and look for corn which is easy to spot A guy in our area we hunt got busted and it wasn't pretty.

While I'm sure the penalties for breaking any illegal tagging is harsh I've literally never heard of anyone getting caught that lived in the area I hunt and I've hunted there 35 years or so.

So my answer is to put an emphasis on the illegal tagging just like they do on baiting. Also I'd wager illegal tagging is a bigger problem than baiting deer in regards to number of deer killed. I'd guess the baiting emphasis is due to the CWD panic that at least in MN hasn't come to fruition.