deer density

[Jameson]

There is something else going on with the deer density levels that is going on under the radar.

[nonteepical]

The reason has been explained to many times to count, but what's never explained is why is it you and others can't just shoot and tag your own deer? You would still be able to participate in hunting activities like deer drives,guttin, dragging or sitting with your kids while they try to fill their tag.

Lets say opening morning little Johnny has a hot doe by his stand and he shoots a nice 8 pointer, uses his tag and 10 minutes later a fork strolls by, he shoots it and uses uncle Bills tag (who wants to go home because he drank to much friday night), then an hour later the doe gets up and johnny shoots her, tags it with sloppy Sally, his sisters tag (never using dads tag because he wants to hunt next weekend with guys from work). Thats 2 deer dead that may or may not have been shot by other members of the hunting party, if they get to shoot them great! if not, thats hunting, it's 1 or 2 more deer for next year.

The DNR says very few deer hunters shoot multiple deer and i know thats not true, because the tags are in other peoples names, so how would they know unless it's registered under a management or lotto tag in their name. That senerio happens all the time and is a big contributer to the low deer densities.

[mntatonka]

Actually, you couldn't participate in drives, because you've used your one and only tag on your deer, so you can no longer legally hunt if cross tagging is illegal. You no longer have a legal tag, so you can't carry a weapon, so you legally cannot be in the woods doing a deer drive with people that do have a weapon.

The entire point behind banning cross tagging is to stop deer drives, and eliminate a way of hunting for a large number of hunters. People are so concerned that one person might get a chance to shoot two bucks. Big freaking deal. Go over and congratulate the guy for having a hell of a year, and tag his deer. I've done it quite a few times, and I know anyone in my party would do the same for me if it was legal. It even makes people poachers, when they mistake a spike for a doe. Then they've got to leave it in the woods, or risk a ticket and fine. And don't give me the dump about how I should know my target. My target is a deer, it's food. And we've all pulled up on a doe, only to realize that it has 3" spikes hiding behind those ears when it turns it's head. Well. Those do us willing to stoop to the low level of actually shooting a doe of course. I know many hunters would never stoop to that level, and can only take the almighty buck.

The selfishness of hunters these days is completely ruining the sport. Everyone is so concerned that someone is going to shoot "their buck", that they'd rather completely shut down their land to anyone else than take that chance. Hunters are lazy too, so many of us sit in tree stands all year, and then wonder why we didn't see any deer. Get off your one-just-like-silly-me and go find them, get them moving, and you'll see and shoot more deer.

[laker1]

I never seen where the DNR said most people don't shoot multible deer(unless they did a special survey they don't have that info),but do agree,that if you have a party of 5,someone is going to shoot more than one deer probably 50% of the time.

Yes we need more restrictions at least for 3 years or so ,also remember

Deer populations go up and down naturally,we really haven't had the super deer killing winter since 1996-97. That is one lucky long stretch.

[mntatonka]

Lou mentioned at a couple of input meetings that the average was somewhere in the 1.2-1.6 range per successful hunter. So very few actually tag more than one.

[laker1]

Is that tagging other deer that the persom himself or herself had when you could get multi-tags?

I wonder if that is what he is talking about. If you shoot a DEER for another person,that other person tags that deer,not the person who shot it. The registration system just records the license holder who registered a deer,not who shot it?

Also if each person who shot a deer ends up averaging 1.6 deer,cumulatively that adds up.

[mntatonka]

Is that tagging other deer that the persom himself or herself had when you could get multi-tags?

I wonder if that is what he is talking about. If you shoot a DEER for another person,that other person tags that deer,not the person who shot it. The registration system just records the license holder who registered a deer,not who shot it?

Also if each person who shot a deer ends up averaging 1.6 deer,cumulatively that adds up.

It does, but that was a few years ago when there were more intensive and managed areas. Then there's a few of us who skew that number. My dad tagged 8 one year. Granted, he shot 7 of them himself. Heck, I tagged 4 this year, and only shot one myself. But I also hunt in an area that has a LOT of deer due to us essentially being the only population management hunters in the local area. Not to mention a few thousand acres of land that's locked up due to leasing, and another couple thousand that's completely off limits to hunting.

[rkhinrichs]

"The selfishness of hunters these days is completely ruining the sport." That is far from the truth for me. I prob spent more time with my cousins and trying to help them shoot a deer then me.

[PurpleFloyd]

Is it me??? I have been open about wanting a buck lottery to go along with our antlerless lottery. But I have no desire for more acres to hunt as I already have plenty of land to hunt, just wish there was a few more deer on those acres. If it means everyone sacrificing some of our hunting for better hunting for everyone it would be worth it IMO.

[laker1]

PurpleFloyd-good points.

[smsmith]

I guess it comes down to how you define success in hunting. If your idea is you should be able to plop your fanny on any property in the state and see a magazine cover deer come prancing by then yeah,you may be a touch unrealistic. If, OTOH success means getting out in the field with friends and family and accepting what the good lord provides you then I would say it is possible and is happening already. I know the advent of commercialization in the hunting industry has changed the way a lot of hunters look at the sport, and in order to keep the images coming that drive the increase in sales every year they rely on selling the dream of a wall hanger in every 40 but that just isn't going to happen and if it did, it would end up being only for those with the resources to afford it.

Why does this thread keep getting turned into a discussion on APRs and "a wall hanger" on every 40?

I understand that APRs and crosstagging have been and will continue to be hot button topics. However, neither of those topics are part of the MDDI. All the MDDI is pushing for is for the DNR to start using some biology (not social science) or at least common sense for antlerless tag allocation and when setting pre-fawn densities. Why does unit 214 have pre-fawn densities of 20 and unit 215 has 10? These two units are directly adjacent and have identical habitat. Why does unit 239 have pre-fawn densities of 9, while directly adjacent 240 has 18 and 241 has 32?

How do we get that accomplished? Make the next round of public stakeholder meetings more representative of the folks who live in those units. Make it a transparent process. Video tape the meetings. Make the minutes of the meetings available to the public.

[Getanet]

Ssmith, you're on here seemingly as a representative of the MDDI. While that may be a cause many of us would support, you've also made it clear you're for APR and would like to see party hunting eliminated. Judging by your your handle, it's also safe to say you've posted on the MWA page along the lines of "we need your help now, and you'll need our help later to expand APR."

So, while you may be posting your own individual thoughts and opinions both on HSO and Facebook, fair or not your opinions reflect on the MDDI. Many of us are leery of anything that is tied to APR or banning of party hunting.

[smsmith]

Ssmith, you're on here seemingly as a representative of the MDDI. While that may be a cause many would support, you've also made it clear your for APR and would support the elimination of party hunting. Judging by your your handle, it's also safe to say you've posted on the MWA page along the lines of "we need your help now, and you'll need our help later to expand APR."

So, while you may be posting your own individual thoughts and opinions both on HSO and Facebook, fair or not you're seeming representing the MDDI. Many of us are leery of anything that is tied to APR or banning of party hunting.

MDDI is not tied to APR or banning of party hunting....period.

Am I a supporter of an increased number of APR units? In areas where there is an adequate number of does to handle an increased kill and where the majority of hunters support them.....yes. Would I support APRs in my unit RIGHT NOW? Nope. It would be a recipe for disaster. Have I posted on MWA about being supportive of the expansion of APRs to units where the above two criteria exist? Yep. Have I also posted on MWA's page that pushing for statewide APR would be a mistake? Yep. Do I believe statewide APR's will (or should) ever happen here? Nope. Have I expressed my opinion to Ted W. with MWA that pushing for an expansion of APR's right now would be a mistake? Yep.

The MDDI is a completely separate entity with completely different methodology and a completely different message than the MWA.

Believe it or not I guess. The only reason I came back to this site was to post information on the MDDI and to attempt to clear up misinformation. If you want to be leery and suspicious...that's your choice.

BTW...call me Stu

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

If anything we are seeing the best hunting we have ever had in my 30 plus years of hunting. Next year should be better than this year.

There is the narrow sighted part I have read a few times...

How hard is it to understand that you might be experienceing everything of your dreams, but there is a very large population of people saying something is really a mess?

Good for you. You are one of the lucky ones in this day and age. Dont forget there are a lot of people that are not and have not experienced that for a while now.

[mntatonka]

MDDI is not tied to APR or banning of party hunting....period.

While this is true, the people pushing MDDI are also seeking an awful lot of support from groups that ARE pushing APR and party hunting ban. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea behind MDDI is sound, I just don't know that it's being pushed in a positive way when things like "Push comes to shove on APR's you're gonna need folks to have your back" are posted by MDDI supporters.

As far as I'm concerned, APR and cross-tagging ban should either go statewide or be eliminated, regardless of deer populations. Why should those of us in Zone 3 be the only ones who get to enjoy such regulations?

[smsmith]

While this is true, the people pushing MDDI are also seeking an awful lot of support from groups that ARE pushing APR and party hunting ban. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea behind MDDI is sound, I just don't know that it's being pushed in a positive way when things like "Push comes to shove on APR's you're gonna need folks to have your back" are posted by MDDI supporters.

As far as I'm concerned, APR and cross-tagging ban should either go statewide or be eliminated, regardless of deer populations. Why should those of us in Zone 3 be the only ones who get to enjoy such regulations?

MDDI was seeking support from EVERY deer group. We wanted this to be unified push. Yes, we wanted support from MWA....we also want support from MDHA, QDMA, and MBI. That was the point...if every major "player" in the state was giving the same message it would be more powerful.

Zone 3 is very different than zone 1 and 2. APRs and crosstagging are separate issues in my mind. While they were both implemented in the SE, they aren't necessarily mutually inclusive or exclusive. I'd also add that if (big if) zone 1 were to add APR units the rules there would likely have to be 3 on one side rather than 4. A "one size fits all" approach with APRs isn't going to work.

I'll shut up here. If anybody would like information on MDDI I can be contacted via email [email protected]

[SmellEsox]

While this is true, the people pushing MDDI are also seeking an awful lot of support from groups that ARE pushing APR and party hunting ban. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea behind MDDI is sound, I just don't know that it's being pushed in a positive way when things like "Push comes to shove on APR's you're gonna need folks to have your back" are posted by MDDI supporters.

As far as I'm concerned, APR and cross-tagging ban should either go statewide or be eliminated, regardless of deer populations. Why should those of us in Zone 3 be the only ones who get to enjoy such regulations?

It's a tough one eh? You can have more deer and the threat of future APR, or you can have way fewer deer and shoot whatever you want (which is nothing for a lot of hunters).

[jentz]

Myself I believe these citizen deer management groups are shooting for what the musky group has done.Which is take control with the few outweighing the many.get a foot in the door like lake associations,Push out the general public and have a louder voice with lobbying the DNR.Eventually being the go to group!

[SmellEsox]

Myself I believe these citizen deer management groups are shooting for what the musky group has done.Which is take control with the few outweighing the many.get a foot in the door like lake associations,Push out the general public and have a louder voice with lobbying the DNR.Eventually being the go to group!

Do you not want more deer? That's what they are pushing for.

[jentz]

Better hunters will find deer,They spend some time looking.They dont leave home 2 weekends a year and expect to fill tags.

[smsmith]

Better hunters will find deer,They spend some time looking.They dont leave home 2 weekends a year and expect to fill tags.

So that pretty much leaves out getting youngsters or new folks involved in the sport. Pretty much leaves out the vast majority of the average Joe deer hunters too.

Going out and shooting a doe shouldn't require a "dedicated" hunter. Going out and shooting a doe shouldn't require guys micro managing their parcels of land. Going out and shooting a doe should be relatively easy to do so that youngsters and new hunters get "hooked" on the activity. Pretty tough sell to a teenager to spend 10 hours in the woods and see nothing.

[mntatonka]

So that pretty much leaves out getting youngsters or new folks involved in the sport. Pretty much leaves out the vast majority of the average Joe deer hunters too.

Going out and shooting a doe shouldn't require a "dedicated" hunter. Going out and shooting a doe shouldn't require guys micro managing their parcels of land. Going out and shooting a doe should be relatively easy to do so that youngsters and new hunters get "hooked" on the activity. Pretty tough sell to a teenager to spend 10 hours in the woods and see nothing.

So get the kid out of the treestand and get walking. Go find the deer. Do a deer drive. Make the deer move.

I know as a kid I hated sitting and waiting for a deer to walk by, that's why I didn't bow hunt much. I loved doing drives, or if I was by myself doing a walk to find a deer to shoot.

[DaveT]

Stu,

You've got the message out there, you're just beating your head against the wall with some of these guys. Nothing you say will change their opinion. Don't take it personally, just go on about your mission.

McLovin

[certified jumbo]

DaveT is correct. To add to that I would say you are going to have lots of support for this initiative. You will get lots more as word grows.

[Getanet]

I think it's instructive for the MDDI to know how important it is to stay focused on their core mission. You'll get a lot of support if the only goal is to increase the deer population and provide more opportunity for hunter success. There aren't too many who wouldn't support that. Stray from that focus, and then you drive a wedge between hunters.

[smsmith]

So get the kid out of the treestand and get walking. Go find the deer. Do a deer drive. Make the deer move.

I know as a kid I hated sitting and waiting for a deer to walk by, that's why I didn't bow hunt much. I loved doing drives, or if I was by myself doing a walk to find a deer to shoot.

I said nothing about sitting in a treestand, I said spending 10 hours in the woods. That would obviously include using a stand, driving, whatever. If a kid has a 40 acre chunk to walk on and does so...and no deer...then what? Can't push a 40 all day every day in an attempt to see a deer. With the current deer densities where I am (10 dpsm) there is .016 adult deer per acre. 40 acres x .016 = .64 adult deer. Less than a deer every 40 acres. Obviously deer aren't distributed evenly over the landscape, but to think a guy needs to own almost 70 acres with at least some decent habitat/cover to have an adult deer around....kind of ridiculous.

[smsmith]

I think it's instructive for the MDDI to know how important it is to stay focused on their core mission. You'll get a lot of support if the only goal is to increase the deer population and provide more opportunity for hunter success. There aren't too many who wouldn't support that. Stray from that focus, and then you drive a wedge between hunters.

That IS the focus. That and improving the public stakeholder process so we don't end up in this situation again.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

I think it's instructive for the MDDI to know how important it is to stay focused on their core mission. You'll get a lot of support if the only goal is to increase the deer population and provide more opportunity for hunter success. There aren't too many who wouldn't support that. Stray from that focus, and then you drive a wedge between hunters.

Right on.

[SmellEsox]

Better hunters will find deer,They spend some time looking.They dont leave home 2 weekends a year and expect to fill tags.

What happens when a lot of very good hunters aren't getting deer anymore?

[jentz]

I would think it would be low deer numbers.Why do some think deer are so easy to take and expect at least one a year.Then say, lets manage for large bucks so I can brag of a wall hanger.When they can hardly see does let alone take one?ego??