Scopes for ML's

[hockeybc69]

Musky,,,,

There was a whopping 108 deer registered in permit area 240 for muzzleloader season.... Hardly a drop in the bucket. For a grand total of .15 deer per square mile harvested with muzzy.

As far as the most muzzleloader hunters in the state in permit area 240, where do you come up with that statistic?

I agree cross tagging is an issue, but scopes on muzzleloaders isnt going to make area 240 go from 108 deer shot to some astronomical number..... Area 240 is 694 sq miles. I dont think your argument against scopes with those facts holds much water.

[Gordie]

When I was introduced to ml hunting it was before the advent of inlines and the number of muzzle load hunters were very small and I think it was not do to the fact that it was the weapon but the fact that it was a one or the other season option, and people could not entertain the fact that they could not hunt for deer with a rifle or a shotgun.

The other thing I remember about those days were that we acctaully had many inches of snow so the deer were more predictable, basically easier to hunt .

I started ML hunting because I liked to waterfowl hunt that late season and hardly no one but a few die hard water fowlers were hunting, and most thought I was nuts to let the firearms deer hunting pass me by.

My first years hunting were with a percussion cap rifle with iron sites and the way it was taught to me by the old timers was if you can hit a pie plate at a hundred yards your good to go. The first couple of deer that I took aim at my gun did not go off due to fouled primers or wet conditions. It was part of that stlye of hunting.

With the introduction of inline muzzle loaders it did change the way we look at hunting deer with a front loader.

They started out with percusion caps and conicals then it went on a pin point accuracy kick that hasnt stopped from 209 primers to electronic ignition to saboted bullets to smokeless powder in premeasured loads. You can even convert a shotgun frame into a muzzle loader or with a simple change of a barrel go from deer/ turkey gun to muzzy in about a minuet. Is that wrong ... No,but something in my opinion was lost and would most certainly guarantee that if it was like it was many years ago today with out the techongy most would not hunt this season at all.

The industry has made it a simplistic way to hunt these days so that more can enjoy this sport ,but do they really, fully understand about it, wear it came from but they know where it has gone.

[ASMOLEY]

I too have had a failed percussion cap, that's no fun at all. I bought an inline the next season. I hunt the ML season because it gives me more time in the woods and it gets too difficult to sling arrows when I'm all bundled up.

It's not industries job to teach heritage. They are there to make money and the best way to do that is to make things more efficient. You don't see many rifle hunters using lever actions or slug hunters with break action shotguns.

Some state have regs against 209 primers and sabots. I don't think it's the states job to regulate heritage.

[lakevet]

Here is an article from last year:

www.outdoornews.com/February-2012/The-year-flintlock-goes-high-tech-with-scopes/

"It’s time to decide once and for all if muzzleloader hunters should be able to use scopes on their weapons during the muzzleloader season.

So says Sen. Bill Ingebrigtsen, R-Alexandria and chair of the Environment and Natural Resources Committee."

and

'Ingebrigtsen hopes to send the bill to the floor on its own, for an up or down vote.

“It’s been around long enough; let’s quit talking about it,” he said. “Let’s see how everyone votes on it and get it over with.” '

Looks like the pro scope lawmakers didn't accept to get it over once and for all they said would be the case last year. Maybe because it was voted down, again.

Also note that Lou C says with allowing scopes for anyone on muzzleloaders an increased harvest could be expected and permitting changes would occur if needed.

"Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

"Scopes would improve the sight picture for hunters who use them, help them see at a longer range, and may allow them to extend their time afield at dusk and dawn.

"In some parts of the state where deer are especially vulnerable during the late season – the muzzleloader season runs from the end of November until about the middle of December – “we could make permitting adjustments, if necessary,” Cornicelli said."

Translation: Increasing opportunity for buck hunters at expense of antler less hunters in areas of low deer population is fine.

No on scopes.

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

Not the article I was talking about, they had listed year by year where the most hunters were and the harvest in those top permit areas, by muzzleloader, I thought it was in the outdoor news, anyway the New York Mills area was regarded as the highest % of ML hunters in the state and guess where I hunt quite often and where my land is ? You bet. Someone must have read that article and maybe recalls it ? I believe it was about this time last year when it was published ? Sure this year was a low kill sorta in 240, wolves and lots of tags a few years back and now we're zone 2, makes sense certainly.

[skee0025]

You don't see many rifle hunters using lever actions or slug hunters with break action shotguns.

D'oh!! guilty of both..

[Wanderer]

D'oh!! guilty of both..

Yeah, me too!

[ASMOLEY]

Translation: Increasing opportunity for buck hunters at expense of antler less hunters in areas of low deer population is fine.

No on scopes.

[ASMOLEY]

D'oh!! guilty of both..

[Musky Buck]

My NYM area is solid, really in 240 10 miles east of there is where I don't want successful rifle hunters saving their tags for a maybe scoped musket hunt, that's my 2nd area of deer hunting, still in 240, I don't want to reward those jokers with a scope, if I wasn't aware of their rifle hunting success only to see them prepping their stands for muzzy season I'd be on-board, for "un" successful rifle hunters.

[hockeybc69]

why are you connecting cross tagging with scopes on muzzleloaders??

Those same guys you are talking about are probably cross tagging with all weapons, and scopes are the focus to curb that issue?

there were 25 adult bucks harvested with muzzleloader in 240 in 2011.... A whopping 25. And scopes might increase that number by how much? If any at all??

[skee0025]

Congrats on being a traditionalist! There isn't anything wrong with it, just as there isn't anything wrong with using more modern actions.

Being a traditionalist has nothing to do with it. In both cases these particular guns were the best tools available for the job at hand for the amount of cash I had at my disposal. I'm watching this debate but really not participating because I dont muzzle load. If i did, I would be firmly in the legal scope camp. Best tool for the job at hand. Tradition and heritage sound good, but your heritage and traditions may not be mine. Whether or not a scope is used will not change the amount of harvest legally available. This is just a case of one group of hunters wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do.

[jerkin'm]

Don't want to get into heated discussion...but, it it were legal, I would put one on....

[Gordie]

This is just a case of one group of hunters wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do.

That goes for both sides.

BTW I believe it to be more than just that.

[skee0025]

That goes for both sides.

No one can force you to use a scope just as no one can force you to use an in line. What others use has no effect on how you chose to conduct your hunt.

[nonteepical]

When approached by those who wanted to start a muzzleloading season for the experience and challenge, the DNR was against it for fear of over harvest. After several special hunts to test the idea, they concluded that if hunters had to pick a season, a muzzleloading season could be held without negatively impacting the deer herd. The season was opened statewide. One deer any sex even in low population areas. As technology improved while staying in the legal definition of muzzleloader, and the dropping of pick a season, we now have had areas of the state (SW MN) that allow shooting of does by kids with shotguns, but not with muzzleloaders due to concern of overharvest by muzzleloaders. Lou C.himself has said that if increased harvest occurs due to scopes, the reg won't be removed, but instead more restrictions will be placed on what you can harvest, fewer doe permits, or other season modifications.

all common sense. i'd expect the DNR to make adjustments IF scopes become detrimental to the herd. When the decision to be able to hunt both seasons the modern, inline,rifle barreled, 209 primer muzzleloader was already in existence for a number of years.

It's a good learning lesson for those kids, teach them deer hunting isn't about "whack'em stack'em" and "brown it's down" and "entitlement" to a deer (all MDHA mentality along with the political correctness of coddling children), that there is a thing called bag limits.

In other words you can use increased technology, but we will use additional regulations to protect the herd from over harvest. This has happened in the fishing world and hunting world. In deer hunting, buck hunters are unaffected, actually will be better off due to ability to shoot longer distance and get that buck at 150-200 yds or more. Those that like to eat venison, and can't travel elsewhere readily, have to deal with less opportunity to shoot antlerless deer

Tell that to MDHA "the more opportunity" special interest group, who originally proposed both seasons open to all,no pick and choose, and scopes on muzzleloaders.

[snoozebutton]

Pretty simple, use your muzzle loader with a scope in the regular season. As far as I know, it's legal then.

[Gordie]

No one can force you to use a scope just as no one can force you to use an in line. What others use has no effect on how you chose to conduct your hunt.

Yes , You are correct and No one is forcing you to purchase and hunt with a muzzle loader either.

I have heard a few good excuses for the scope though like it will let spend more time in the feild... How much time do you not spend in the feild becasue of not scoping a muzzle loader? Do you get up in the morning and say I would go deer hunting with my muzzle loader ,but I don't have a scope on it so I think I'll stay home. If it is truley getting out in the feild more then it shouldn't matter.

Because it will help make those longer shots or becasue I can't see the target with my iron sight when the deer is at 75 to a hundred yards.

Its like bow hunting, you have limitations for your shots, you wouldn't take a shot with a bow that is a iffy shot , so why do it with a muzzle loader.

Technology has advanced so much that we should do it... well if technology said jump off the bridge I guess we better. I know that is an old cliché, but the new one isn‘t any better.

Saying that muzzle loaders won’t be factor to the deer herd. If you can’t make that shot at a hundred yards without the scope then you put the scope on the gun and are able to make the shot , well the first scenario the deer lived the later of the two the deer did not(maybe).

Bow hunting is a great sport, but it has is limitations as far as distance and shots that can be taken, and so does muzzle loaders with iron sites, it has its limitations.

I have nothing against the scope on a muzzle loader I just don’t think it should be a part of the hunting season that is in place now.

If you would asked me this question 10 years ago I would probly said I would like to see scopes on them but I have thought about it alot and I woulod prefer it to stay like it is.

Enough from me.

[lakevet]

It's a good learning lesson for those kids, teach them deer hunting isn't about "whack'em stack'em" and "brown it's down" and "entitlement" to a deer (all MDHA mentality along with the political correctness of coddling children), that there is a thing called bag limits.

Yeah non typical, I must coddle my kids deer hunting. Give them a muzzleloader, compass, knife, matches, warm clothes, portable stand without heat, hunt all day in what can be below zero weather in Northern Minnesota. Walk several miles (don't own an atv) making drives or being on stand,etc. This year oldest kid saw as many timber wolves as deer. No food plots, heated box stands, gps, scope, etc etc. Main purpose is to hunt with family and harvest some venison to share and to eat. But would like them to be able to harvest any deer that came by. If that is raising them with an entitlement mentality, I just raised them the way I was.

Funny thing is that they are now addicted to that style of hunting (as are the rest of us). If we were into whack and stack we would hunt farther south or west over food plots from heated stands with scoped weapons during the rut. I personally can't hunt that way, raised different I guess.

What has been taught to our kids by their own real personal experience is that not all hunters like sharing the woods. Having had a trophy hunter drive up, get out of his truck and who yells at us telling us we are hunting "his spot" on public land (clearly marked as a WMA) and "his buck" he had in his food plots and on his trail cams on his nearby farm, and had pursued since sept with bow then rifle, and then muzzleloader in the public swamp that the buck was now calling home. Unfortunately my kids have a dim view of those who pursue big racks intensively due to that self absorbed jerk. I honestly believe there is room for all. And trophy hunters are not all jerks like the one we met.

Allowing scopes on muzzleloaders is another smaller step towards making muzzleloading an extension of the regular firearms season. I would hate to see that happen, although there is continual pressure to do so. The regular season can be a real zoo.

By the way we had our worst muzzleloader season ever as far as deer shot at 1 for 8 hunters. Scopes would have definitely increased our opportunities. However, it was a very good season for the things that count, good times in the woods with family with no conflict with other hunters, and a lot of close wolf sightings. And the buck was shot by someone who had not got a buck since the early 1990's. Kids are pumped for next year.

lakevet

[lichen fox]

Quote: "Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

I really don't think it will result in any more "dead" deer...but it would more than likely result in more..."recovered & registered" dead deer...most folks don't register blood trails....

[cavalierowner]

Quote: "Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

I really don't think it will result in any more "dead" deer...but it would more than likely result in more..."recovered & registered" dead deer...most folks don't register blood trails....

Maybe, maybe not. If people who are shooting at the outside (or beyond) of their limits of open sights as this seems to suggest, what would stop them from shooting at the outside (or beyond) of the limits of their scoped rifle?

[nonteepical]

Lakevet, you stated a reason you are against scopes is because it could take away an antlerless permit from a child during muzzleloader season, but inturn, you want to take away from someone who may not be able to use open sights so your child can have a doe permit. I'd rather give to someone than worrie about what may happen to me, i guess it's the way i was raised.

I'm well aware of zone 1 hunting, been hunting it for over 30 years.

I'm not believing the trophy hunter story.... aren't all deer trophys?

[lakevet]

Lakevet, you stated a reason you are against scopes is because it could take away an antlerless permit from a child during muzzleloader season, but inturn, you want to take away from someone who may not be able to use open sights so your child can have a doe permit. I'd rather give to someone than worrie about what may happen to me, i guess it's the way i was raised.

I have never been against scopes for someone who can't use open sights.

Again as I stated in an earlier post:

"We have had hunters into their 80's muzzleloading with open sights. Couple in there seventies at this point. Trifocals, etc,etc. never once did they ask for scope and actually preferred open sights. They grew up with open sights and have a lot of practice using them. Downright scary what they can do as they are very accurate. I myself am older and eyes are changing. Have one in our group who has a scope permit due to retinal damage, so we are NOT against scopes for those who have vision problem that a eye doc determines requires a scope.

Simple steps that always has been available:

1) Talk to your eye doc about it specifically. Highly recommend using one who hunts themselves. If you qualify for a scope permit due to truly poor vision that can't be corrected, use it.

2) Use a peep sight as the rear sight can be out of focus. Peep sights actually more accurate than other style open sights. Or try other styles of open sights to find one that works best for you.

3) Practice, practice, practice

Lastly..........get closer to the deer

lakevet "

[fr0sty]

Whatever the law, the dnr will manage the heard to their target levels regardless if scopes are allowed or not. I wonder what the harvest increase would be if cross bows were allowed during archery and scopes during ml season. I don't think very much, but who knows. Firearms harvest is the tool that used to meet harvest targets. Bow and ml #'s are a small part of the overall kill.

My opinion is that the reason some are opposed to cross bows and scopes is to keep hunter numbers lower during those seasons. That would allow less competition on public land and even just a quieter, more private hunting experience. Nothing wrong with wanting that. I don't see how it can have anything to do with keeping those seasons more "primitive". Nothing prevents hunters today from going as primitive as they want during any of the three seasons.

For me personally, I see the ml season as a way to extend my firearm season. I want to take time to hopefully get a shot at an older buck during the firearms season. I usually take that entire week off from work to hunt all day, every day. If ml season arrives and I haven't shot a buck, then the first doe I see goes in the freezer.

[countyline]

All you guys hunting in wide open spaces? It sounds like if scopes are allowed everyone will have 150-300 yard shots all day every day. No deer is safe. If scopes are allowed do you really think tens of thousands of people will now flock to the wide open spaces, to par take in the new long range sport of muzzleloading? Resulting in a herd decimation?

WI allowed them a few years back check their ML harvest reports. No massive harvest or hunter increases.

[Sturg]

When MN changed the ML season from the original option of ML season or Rifle season to allowing a hunter to purchase both licenses there was a jump in participation. I think there would also be a jump if scopes are allowed. I don't think it will decimate the herd. Harvest can be controlled by area management. It may reduce the quality of the hunt for some hunters. There may be more competition between hunters in areas that have very little competition now.

[skee0025]

How much time do you not spend in the field because of not scoping a muzzle loader? Do you get up in the morning and say I would go deer hunting with my muzzle loader ,but I don't have a scope on it so I think I'll stay home. If it is truly getting out in the field more then it shouldn't matter.

I wont lose a day whether or not scope are allowed. By your own words if its about getting out in the field the it shouldn't matter, and it doesn't. You say you've heard a few good reasons to allow scopes, but I haven't heard one good reason not to allow them. All that's been put forward is "in my opinion" and "I don't think"..Again this is about some people wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do and nothing you've put forward leads me to think otherwise, in fact its even reinforced that perception.

[Gordie]

All that's been put forward is "in my opinion" and "I don't think"..Again this is about some people wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do and nothing you've put forward leads me to think otherwise, in fact its even reinforced that perception.

You are correct and I have stated that it IS only My opinion and I wouldn't force anyone to hunt in a away that I want. Again its only my opinion.

[harvey lee]

For those who contact thier elected officials to oppose this bill, then yes, you are trying to force others who would like to use a scope to hunt your way.

[Wanderer]

You say you've heard a few good reasons to allow scopes, but I haven't heard one good reason not to allow them.

People not hearing one good reason not to allow them is an opinion in itself. In reality this entire debate is based on opinion.

The decision will come down to popular vote, in my opinion.

The closest thing to fact has already been said: Contact your Representatives and let them know your opinion.