Scopes for ML's

[harvey lee]

I wonder if the bill will pass in the legislature this winter on the use of scopes for muzzleloaders.

My questions is, would you like to see this pass,not are you for it or not, that has been hashed over for pages over the years.

Personally for me, I would like to see scopes allowed. I know I can shoot more accurate with a scope than I can with iron sights at 75-100 yards. Allows for me to make a much better shot and a better kill on the animal.

[96trigger]

Wouldn't bother me. I wouldn't mind it in HC, Managed, or IH areas. I don't personally need one yet, but would put one on if given the chance.

[cavalierowner]

I do not want to see it pass. I would like to see some semblance of a primitive hunt retained.

I know what the limitations of iron sights are and have learned to live with those limitations. Just like bow hunters have learned to live with their limitations on range. The longest shot I have ever taken with my ML was last year at about 80 yards; it went less than 10 yards before it dropped. I have to say I debated a few seconds about taking the shot, but it was a standing broadside shot. I spend a LOT of time shooting the ML at the range, so I felt reasonably comfortable when I took the shot.

[paceman]

[Personally for me, I would like to see scopes allowed. I know I can shoot more accurate with a scope than I can with iron sights at 75-100 yards. Allows for me to make a much better shot and a better kill on the animal.

[Gordie]

I would rather this bill not pass although if it does then I would like to see a change in the licensing laws that you have to make a choice one or the other, firearms or muzzle loader license.

[Musky Buck]

I'm in Gordies boat paddling along, I don't want to see ML season as a new 16 day, basically turning a ML hunt into a rifle hunt. I just don't like the piling up in places of extra deer because of our tagging system, those deer are seed for the next fall really, we're just skimming them off, they take quite a beating during our rifle season and don't want but can't stop guys from "finding" tags or not tagging at all because I want that extended season and buck tag in hand just in case. You pick rifle or muzzleloader. This topic does matter to me more than most because the permit area I hunt in is the highest number of ML hunters in the state and the highest harvest during ML every year. Lots of tag saving in 240. I do understand failing eyesight etc. so if that were me I'd be sure to pull the trigger during our rifle season when you can use a scope. The way I see it seems every guy must have these deer at 100 yards or on the edge of comfortable range, do what I did I skipped my stand and moved 50 yards closer to that trail, set up downwind, sure it was cold and made the shot, or is it we don't want to leave our heated boxstand ? I would be in favor of scopes if you tag your own deer, not with the tagging system we have going now and sure people would buy the wife a tag during rifle or a close friend guaranteeing you will have muzzleloader to look forward to later. Too many game hogs in my neck of the woods.

[hockeybc69]

Is there any language in this years bill stating non magnified scopes on muzzleloaders?

I am all for it, as long as they are not magnified scopes.

As stated above, its just extending the gun season in a way if you allow magnified scopes.

Non magnified scopes arent going to help(much if any) in the taken of deer out beyond 100 yds over open sights.

[jnorm1984]

Is there any language in this years bill stating non magnified scopes on muzzleloaders?

I thought you already could use a non magnified scope?

[cavalierowner]

I thought you already could use a non magnified scope?

Only by special permit. Hers the regulation:

Only open and “peep” type sights (including those with fiber optic

material) are legal during the muzzleloader deer season. Scopes, including holographic or “red dot” scopes, are not legal for this season, except

for use of non-magnifying scopes by special permit for persons with

medically verified visual impairments. A permit application is available

by calling the DNR Information Center (see page 125).

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

I thought you already could use a non magnified scope?

You havent been using one now, have you?

Only open and “peep” type sights (including those with fiber optic material) are legal during the muzzleloader deer season. Scopes, including holographic or “red dot” scopes, are not legal for this season, except for use of non-magnifying scopes by special permit for persons with medically verified visual impairments. A permit application is available by calling the DNR Information Center (see page 125).

[hockeybc69]

Ooops... Got beat to the punch.

[Bear55]

I do not want to see it pass. I would like to see some semblance of a primitive hunt retained.

Same here.

[Musky Buck]

I would also tend to think there's a lot of muzzleloaders not capable of mounting a scope out there. I like the not magnified idea, it does stink to sit there with numb fingers holding a pair of binocs at times.

[WaveWacker]

I have to side with NO, don't allow them. I'll probably get chastised for this but in all reality, a broadside deer presents a fairly good sized target or to better state it, if aiming center mass, there is a fair amount of "wiggle" room which will still be a clean fatal shot. For me, the ML season is too long already. The advancement of ML's already have basically made it an extension of the gun season and now we want scopes so we can be more accurate? I rarely shoot more than one shot at a deer during the rifle season and my ML is absolutely deadly accurate with open sights out to 100yds...or maybe more. I never really practiced as I'm not comfortable trying a shot out that far. Can my gun accurately shoot farther? Without a doubt but I'm just going to have to pass I guess. I'm no spring chicken but will admit that my eyes are in decent shape. So, if it is primarily "I'm old and my eyes are bad" type of thing then there are allotments for utilizing some form of a scope or lets look at legilating things to allow for use for those individuals.

[cavalierowner]

I have to side with NO, don't allow them. I'll probably get chastised for this but in all reality, a broadside deer presents a fairly good sized target or to better state it, if aiming center mass, there is a fair amount of "wiggle" room which will still be a clean fatal shot. For me, the ML season is too long already. The advancement of ML's already have basically made it an extension of the gun season and now we want scopes so we can be more accurate? I rarely shoot more than one shot at a deer during the rifle season and my ML is absolutely deadly accurate with open sights out to 100yds...or maybe more. I never really practiced as I'm not comfortable trying a shot out that far. Can my gun accurately shoot farther? Without a doubt but I'm just going to have to pass I guess. I'm no spring chicken but will admit that my eyes are in decent shape. So, if it is primarily "I'm old and my eyes are bad" type of thing then there are allotments for utilizing some form of a scope or lets look at legilating things to allow for use for those individuals.

You won't get an argument from me. I'm 64 and about 3 years ago I had to take off the buckhorn sights on my traditional ML because it was to the point where my old eyes were having trouble. I put on fiber optic sights and let me tell you how ridiculous that looked on a traditional style ML!! I can't imagine a scope on that gun. For me, if I have to quit hunting with a ML because of old eyes, then so be it. I've shot enough deer in my lifetime that it isn't a big deal if I have to pass on a deer too far away. This last season was the second year I have carried my ML during rifle season and until my eyes won't let me, I plan on continuing that.

[Musky Buck]

No doubt cavalier, really only those 60 and up should respond to this topic anyway, in a way, my old style TC black mountain magnum is dead on the nards at 100 shooting a 370 grain maxi-ball. Set up so that's your max distance where you hunt and if the deer is further, don't go home slam your pack and tell the wife if I had a scope I coulda.....you've already maybe had 32 days in the field with a gun already, 100 if you bow, if you can't get a deer in that amount of time it just wasn't meant to be, but I have a feeling more so nowaday some "expect" to or better get a deer, I grew up hoping to or wishing to connect or have the chance, don't forget it's called deer hunting, not getting, not guaranteed. Our deer have never been so pressured by the volume of days in the field, no wonder they have become extremely nocturnal, they don't get a break. Now t-cams,shed hunting, etc. is adding to them encountering human presence more so than years back, leave em off, challenge yourself with a weapon that used to be much more primitive or use that ML during the rifle with a scope.

[huntnfish]

I would rather this bill not pass although if it does then I would like to see a change in the licensing laws that you have to make a choice one or the other, firearms or muzzle loader license.

I'm with Gordie. Muzzy season the last few years has just been a late firearm season.

[harvey lee]

I love to hunt deer. I let far more walk by than I have ever shot.

As far as shooting at 100 yards with my ML, I would rather not with iron sights. I can hold the gun up, put the sights on the deer and not know if I am aiming at the top of the back, the shoulder or the guts. many times I have passed on a deer as I could not tell where I was shooting.

I see nothing wrong with using a scope to make sure I make a good clean shot to kill the anumal as humainly as possible.

....."you've already maybe had 32 days in the field with a gun already, 100 if you bow, if you can't get a deer in that amount of time it just wasn't meant to be, but I have a feeling more so nowaday some "expect" to or better get a deer, I grew up hoping to or wishing to connect or have the chance, don't forget it's called deer hunting."

I hunt many days afield in the fall deer hunting and it has nothing to do with killing numerous deer. I along with I am sure many others, enjoy sitting in the stand and watching the wildlife and enjoying the day afield. if I shoot a deer, thats great, if not, oh well. Not just about killing MuskyBuck.

As far as your area having many or more ML licenses that nay other area, the same amount of deer would be harvested each season with or without a ML season.

The herd is controlled by population and licenses are set by that and how many deer that area can carry.

As far as a guy buying his wife a tag so he can hunt longer, they do it no already so that point is mute.

It's fine if some only want to hunt with a rifle but I, like many others, enjoy archery, rifle and ML seasons. Not as much about the harvest as the hunt and days in the tree.

As far as moving my box stand closer to the trail, I have no trails I hunt, I hunt an open filed and cannot get any closer than I am now. The deer could come from anywhere.

Seems to be alot of assuming in your post.

[harvey lee]

I would rather this bill not pass although if it does then I would like to see a change in the licensing laws that you have to make a choice one or the other, firearms or muzzle loader license.

You do to some degree now. I cannot shot a gun buck in the zone I hunt and then also shoot another in that zone with my ML. I could not shoot 2 bucks in my zone, 1 with a shotgun or bow and then a ML deer. least that is what the DNR explained to me last October.

I had to hunt in a intensive harvest zone and shoot a doe.

[Gordie]

To be totally honest the muzzle loader IMO is not the muzzle loader of yester year with all the technology it's made it more than what it is supposed to be.

I know that you still have to load it from the barrel, but now their are many choices of powder, bullets and ignition systems.

I think it's one step away from tradition, you can say all you want about it being a more ethical kill but I don't believe that is the total motives here, all it does is make it more reliable. In fact even the ATF thinks so as if you purchase a muzzle loader has a 209 primmer or electronic ignition ( which I believe is not at all traditional ) it has to have a background check run.

Just because you have to pass a shot on a deer at a hundred yards doesn't mean that it should be legal to put a scope on a gun.

I have shot deer with mine out to 150 yards and yes I have a inline and I enjoy shooting it . I just don't believe we need scopes on these guns.

As for the choice I would like it to be one or the other plain and simple. Not the well it's like that to some degree, it is simply not that way at all. It used to be that way when I started muzzle loading for deer.

[Archerysniper]

Gordie it's funny we just had this same talk on the way home from fishing yesterday,you know my strong opinion.

Do not allow scopes during the muzzle loader season and limit it to either a gun tag or muzzle loader tag if scopes are allowed. With the deer numbers the way they are now in a lot of areas my opinion it should go back to pick a season and not being able to hunt all of them.

I wish they would bring back the all season tag with the bonus doe tag. That was the perfect combination.

[96trigger]

I really don't care either way, but I see Harvey's point. In areas where the population is doing well, why not allow them? If I am in a two deer zone, I'm probably going to take two deer no matter how many seasons I hunt. I'd take two if I hunted just the firearm, just like I would only take two if I hunted archery, firearm and muzzle loader, like I currently do. Why does it really matter if I shoot a deer with open sights on my muzzy or with a scope. A dead deer is a dead deer. I just like to go out and deer hunt as much as possible, most of the time I shoot nothing. If I had to make a choice between seasons because of a scope, I would be against them. Much rather keep iron sights and be able to hunt another couple of times than use a scope I don't really need.

[Gordie]

Gordie it's funny we just had this same talk on the way home from fishing yesterday,you know my strong opinion.

Do not allow scopes during the muzzle loader season and limit it to either a gun tag or muzzle loader tag if scopes are allowed. With the deer numbers the way they are now in a lot of areas my opinion it should go back to pick a season and not being able to hunt all of them.

I wish they would bring back the all season tag with the bonus doe tag. That was the perfect combination.

Yep funny how that works Arch thinking about that discussion all the way home.

[harvey lee]

To be totally honest the muzzle loader IMO is not the muzzle loader of yester year with all the technology it's made it more than what it is supposed to be.

I know that you still have to load it from the barrel, but now their are many choices of powder, bullets and ignition systems.

I think it's one step away from tradition, you can say all you want about it being a more ethical kill but I don't believe that is the total motives here, all it does is make it more reliable. In fact even the ATF thinks so as if you purchase a muzzle loader has a 209 primmer or electronic ignition ( which I believe is not at all traditional ) it has to have a background check run.

Just because you have to pass a shot on a deer at a hundred yards doesn't mean that it should be legal to put a scope on a gun.

I have shot deer with mine out to 150 yards and yes I have a inline and I enjoy shooting it . I just don't believe we need scopes on these guns.

As for the choice I would like it to be one or the other plain and simple. Not the well it's like that to some degree, it is simply not that way at all. It used to be that way when I started muzzle loading for deer.

One could say the same thing about archery hutning with the compounds, the rifles of today.

One could also look at the gear used today for fishing versus years ago.

Is the ML season called a traditional ML season or a ML season? I understand how you feel about scopes but that does not mean it should be that way it is for all.

If you would like to not use a scope if the law were to change, you would not have too. You could go back to a flintlock if that is what you would choose to hunt with. Some in archery choose to use a longbow, some an compound. I would never tell another archer he has to use the same type gear I do. If that is the weapon he would like to use, have it then. As stated above, the deer is dead either way.

I would be much more concerned about hunters using others tags like thier wife's than what they used legally to shoot the deer with.

Times change

Happt Birthday also.

[WaveWacker]

With 100% agreement, I can definately appreciate those that want to make sure that they will make a clean killing shot. I think we are all in that same boat. All I'm saying is that out to at least 100yds if I'm diligent about cleaning, drying, etc. etc. I know for a fact that I can "drive tacks" with my ML. It's almost scary and I have to shake my head in amazement every time I walk out to check the target. In fact if I find myself in a tree in a slug area during the rifle/gun season, you'll find my ML across my lap WITHOUT a scope as I just feel that confident with it and don't need anything else.

With that said, I will admit that the front sight covers up a lot of the target at 100 yds and it was VERY weird shooting that way at first but, with many rounds of practice (and I'm not saying that others don't practice as I'm sure you do) I know that if I line up the sights and center the front sight on "center mass" there is no doubt about the shot. Done deal. I haven't shot all that many deer with my ML, but the ones that I have confirms this.

I too have had to pass on deer that would have been "no brainers" with my rifle and some that I probably would have been able to shoot with a scoped ML (don't know as I never shot one and hence don't have confidence with a scoped ML). I need all the "stars" to line up for me to feel confident with my ML. They have to be close enough, standing stil, I have to have a decent rest, I need a little more time to make sure things are all lined up, etc. etc. (and no, I don't take bad or "iffy" shots with my rifle. I just know that I can make a good shot with a less of a degree of all the above stated points). I'm not not disappointed at all that I have to have all of these things happen before I pull the trigger as in my mind, it's not suppose to be as "easy". If deer aren't passing or coming out close enough then that's when hunting and strategizing comes into play and I have to figure out how to get closer to them. If it's a "coin toss" as to where they may come out then I'm left with no choice but to lean back on good ol' fashion luck and if god wants it to happen it will happen.

Again...in my opinon the advancements in ML have dramtically changed things up and honestly, the 16 day season is ridiculously too long (unless maybe ML is the only thing gun wise you are going to hunt but that's another discussion) and scopes just make them a sinlge shot rifle out to a certain distance. With scopes, I just have a hard time justifying another season that basically has the only difference from a pure shooting standpoint of "but I only have one shot" (which as my dad always said, that's all you need) or "but I can only shoot out to 150 to maybe pushing 200 yds".

Anyhow, just my opinion again and given that this is America, you're all entitled to your own (at least for now but we won't go down that road).

[harvey lee]

I would agree that the 16 day season is a bit longer than it may need to be.

At least for me, I have the luxury of being able to hunt every day if I choose.

But, for those who work 5 days a week, the 16 day season then allows for a working man the opportunity to at least hunt 2 weekends.

We could change that to a 6 day season and some would only be able to hunt the 2 days on the weekend.

So, in reality. the 16 day season only works for those who are not working or retired, the balance do not have the time for the 16 days. One could plan to go ML hunting and have to work, have a deathn in the family or another emergency and the longer season still aloows that hunter to get out for a few days on the next weekend.

That may be the reason the DNR decided to allow for a longer season to simply allow the working man a few more opportunites that the select few who can go out daily. They can still only harvest 1 deer unless they of course hunt an Intensive harvest area.

[lakevet]

Personally for me, I would like to see scopes allowed. I know I can shoot more accurate with a scope than I can with iron sights at 75-100 yards. Allows for me to make a much better shot and a better kill on the animal.

Night hunting with night vision or spotlights, bait piles, scopes and centerfire rifle would allow me to kill deer cleanly and basically easier than open sighted muzzleloader during daylight. Using the excuse that you need more technology to make you a better shot so harvest the animal more cleanly is always there.

We must decide to accept certain limitations in technology, and decide how hard we want to work on those skills you can't just buy off the shelf.

Stick with open sights, get a peep sight if eyes are older and practice. Besides Harvey, us older guys should be smarter and able to get closer to compensate for our decreasing eyesight Working out a strategy to get closer is the challenge. And getting closer is a large part of the satisfaction of muzzleloading for many, especially those who pushed to start a muzzleloading season in the first place. Otherwise just be honest and say you want to extend the rifle season another 16 days.

Also glad to hear more people open to the idea of going back to pick a season firearm or muzzleloading, not both. That buck only has to dodge you and your longer range weapon for 16 days not 32 days. And someone else just might get permission to muzzleload hunt that private land owned by those whose rifle/shotgun season is over for the year. Helps spread out hunting pressure and opens more access for those who don't have land.

No to scopes. Period.

Usually there is a counter bill that appears that would force all to use sidelock weapons percussion or flinters to cause a compromise to leave it as is.

lakevet

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

We must decide to accept certain limitations in technology

I have seen this thought posted so many times.... Lets go through your current hunting and fishing equipment you own and we can all decipher whats acceptable within technology limits...... I bet we could glean out a lot of things as a group that we may consider "unnecessary".

Cheers to scopes on muzzleloaders!!!!

[Jameson]

I'm for allowing scopes on Muzzleloaders.

If you don't want to use a scope you don't have to. If guys are forced to choose ML or firearms then they will just go ahead and shoot the first deer they see during firearms instead of waiting, and we will end up going hunting less for the same amount of deer killed. If we want to limit the deer killed the way is to reduce the number of tags available (see this past Fall.)

[Gordie]

One could say the same thing about archery hutning with the compounds, the rifles of today.

One could also look at the gear used today for fishing versus years ago.

Is the ML season called a traditional ML season or a ML season? I understand how you feel about scopes but that does not mean it should be that way it is for all.

If you would like to not use a scope if the law were to change, you would not have too. You could go back to a flintlock if that is what you would choose to hunt with. Some in archery choose to use a longbow, some an compound. I would never tell another archer he has to use the same type gear I do. If that is the weapon he would like to use, have it then. As stated above, the deer is dead either way.

I would be much more concerned about hunters using others tags like thier wife's than what they used legally to shoot the deer with.

Times change

Happt Birthday also.

I too would not tell anyone how they should hunt,and these are just my opinions about the sport.

I also think that when you start to compare all the other things that are brought up to date with technology that it is just a simple cop-out,

So it would be easy for me to say well such and such states don't even allow Hy-vis sites on the black-powder guns or maybe we should have a early muzzy season like some other states do.

You could also go as far as saying that if scopes are allowed on muzzle loaders, why not just keep the rifle season open longer and make it a all in one season.

I love to hunt and spend as much if not more time in the feild as the next guy ,but I just dont think their is a need for a scope on a muzzle loader.

I also have weaker eyes than when I started shooting my muzzy and am now wearing glasses so I know that its not easy to always see the sites ,but that means more practice I guess.

I also would like to hunt with a flintlock and plan to do so. but first I have to build that gun. I am currently building a in-line that I will most likley use for firearms season as I really don't need the rifle were I hunt and not even sure if I will scope it.

Yea, times are changing but is for the good of the sport or the good personal perference,and each time we change it alittle a lot seems to be lost from our past traditions. You can see that that in almost everything we do for recreation.

Thanks for the birthday wishes and hope you caught a few kittys today.