APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[Getanet]

We don't kill them all, not even close. Can we at least attempt to deal in facts? For starters, the original figure was 65% yearling bucks, which was highly dubious to begin with and only came from the QDMA's research, not the DNRs. But like anything, if you say it enough, it becomes gospel. Now it's grown to 80%.

But heck, let's say it's 80% is the true figure. That's only bucks harvested, not how many remain in the herd. Hunter success ranges around 33% for both bucks and does.

If I go to an apple orchard and pick a basket of apples, and 80% of them are green apples - you can't say I removed 80% of all the green apples from the orchard.

[muskiemanAD]

Nevermind the horns....the LAND should be the main issue here.

If you hunt private property and it's not yours...you should be very nervous right now...

If you don't believe me, just wait and see....

Please explain? Is this another scare tactic that every last piece of land will be leased to the outfitter that only caters to the super rich?

[PurpleFloyd]

If we kill them all at 1 1/2 or younger.... what does genetics matter anyway. They're all gonna be brown with a little bit of meat on them, theres no changing that.

Where does that happen right now that you are concerned about and how different do they taste?

[PurpleFloyd]

Also, the doe tags we get don't say female only, they are deer without antlers including button bucks. I would think that passing on a young buck and taking an antlerless deer for the freezer is going to have some guys taking a future buck much earlier than the 1.5 that is a concern.

[hockeybc69]

2011 there were 76,000 adult bucks harvested.

2011 there were 17,500 fawn bucks harvested.

I would agree the fawn buck harvest may increase, but not significantly.

The harvest of yearling bucks would decrease 10 fold...

[Big Dave2]

BD2, nobody has to hunt for food anymore.

We don't have to do a lot of things. We don't have to hunt either.

I'm not saying I HAVE to hunt for food. I WANT to hunt for food.

Same reason I grow tomato plants in a garden, I certainly don't have to but I sure like to. I take pride in food I prepare myself without going to the store and buying the processed stuff. Where else can I get venison that I can afford if not to hunt for it? I just pickled 2 jars of farm fresh eggs on Thanksgiving day. I live across the street from a meat market that sells pickled eggs 6 days a week, I can go there and buy them any time I want to and have in the past but I prefer to take the time to make my own. Same goes for smoked ribs, I can go to famous Dave's but I prefer the ones I smoke myself.

If you want to judge outdoor sports on whether or not anyone HAS to do it in order to survive, you may as well shut them all down. IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I'm not saying I HAVE to hunt for food. I WANT to hunt for food.

Same reason I grow tomato plants in a garden, I certainly don't have to but I sure like to. I take pride in food I prepare myself without going to the store and buying the processed stuff. Where else can I get venison that I can afford if not to hunt for it? I just pickled 2 jars of farm fresh eggs on Thanksgiving day. I live across the street from a meat market that sells pickled eggs 6 days a week, I can go there and buy them any time I want to and have in the past but I prefer to take the time to make my own. Same goes for smoked ribs, I can go to famous Dave's but I prefer the ones I smoke myself.

If you want to judge outdoor sports on whether or not anyone HAS to do it in order to survive, you may as well shut them all down. IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

Fairness in savagery - I think this is a very well thought out post by Dave. I can agree with a lot of what he is saying. His last paragraph is why I am not on board completely with APR's. I think there are other changes that can be made that acheive similar results as APR's without taking away the choice of a tag holder who wants to take the first legal deer they have a chance at so that they can get the meat they desire.

[surewood]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

[96trigger]

Quote:

IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

It has been ruined for 50 years. Keep telling yourself that maybe in the "good old days" hunting was all about family, and that people never hunted for bigger racks or went out looking to catch big fish. You can believe what you want, maybe in your mind you think its true. But I know, It has always been about size and quantity for most. Humans in general always want to either have the most, or have the largest, its in our nature.

For decades, I have seen pictures of people standing next to a great harvest of fish on a stringer, or a meat pole full of deer. Or the pictures would show a nice buck or a big fish if it was a lone picture. To act like this "problem" of people wanting trophies is something new, is absolutely ridiculous.

[Getanet]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

You also have the means to find your enjoyment and thrills from a million different ways other than hunting. I know plenty of people that wouldn't die if they didn't get a deer, but it certainly helps their food budget.

[Jameson]

...Why do you want young deer to live another year? If your answer does not contain "larger antlers" you are lieing through your teeth....

For everyone or just the Surewood?

Make a law that says we can't keep antlers and I'll not be against it. No pics allowed of the antlers even. The hunting is just so much better (see more animals more often) when the majority of the bucks don't get shot when they are 1.5's.

[surewood]

Exactly. It's about the hunt. That's what I said. All kinds of thrills from many different things. We choose hunting. I know it helps their food budget, but it's not the main reason they hunt. Like I said the dnr or venison donations or even neighbor would maybe give up some venison. We're all trophy hunting. Every deer is a trophy right?

[Big Dave2]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

1st of all, hunting does not have to cost very much at all for those of us who do not give in to the peer pressure of buying every new gadget that comes down the line.

2nd of all, it has nothing to do with how much it costs. I enjoy raising, hunting, catching or gathering my own food. That is the main enjoyment I get out of hunting, fishing, gardening, etc. The trophy I am after is the look on my family's face when I prepare a better than average meal made up of items I gathered and prepared myself with my own 2 hands.

To say that every hunter is out there for the trophy of large antlers is not accurate.

[lakevet]

For decades, I have seen pictures of people standing next to a great harvest of fish on a stringer, or a meat pole full of deer. Or the pictures would show a nice buck or a big fish if it was a lone picture. To act like this "problem" of people wanting trophies is something new, is absolutely ridiculous.

Looking through the old outdoor life, fur fish game and field & stream magazines from 50 years or more ago, hunting pictures frequently showed groups of hunters with all the deer shot, buck, doe and fawn. Often the hunters are in front of and partially blocking the view of the deer. All were part of the story and picture. Simply deer hunters getting together hunting deer. Big bucks were pursued, but usually were just part of the lineup on the meat pole in the picture.

Ironically this was back when Minnesota dominated the record books.

Now it is mostly the lone individual in the background with arms extended with the buck head shoved forward at the best angle to maximize the impression it is huge. Both magazines and pictures shown to me by hunters seem to be mostly this. I am glad to see some publications still show that first time hunter with that button buck or doe fawn and an ear to ear high beam smile. They however are usually back by the classified ads.

Now 40% of us refuse to shoot does and big bucks are targeted intensively like they were Osama Bin Laden. They are patterned, trail cammed, named, fed all kinds of nutritional products/food plots, then hunted from sept thru dec, including thru the peak of the rut during 32 days of firearms seasons. And people complain about Minnesota not being where they want it to be in the record books.

I guess our family is stuck in the past. Gun, license, matches, compass, wool clothes and family is the technology we use. We hunt together and very much enjoy eating deer.

I sincerely believe the deer herd can be managed with regulations that allow all of us to enjoy our hunting traditions by ourself or as a group. Wisconsin and Iowa do.

Wouldn't have it any other way

lakevet

P.S. no matter how you hunt, be sure to take a kid hunting.....often!

[surewood]

I do just fine without apr as I already mentioned. Yet, you single me out as to say I'm selfish. Meaning I don't need apr yet I'm willing to change and try something different that may be better or maybe not. It's not just me that feels this way. I have a feeling more would chime in if they weren't attacked about their opinion. It's my OPINION. You don't have to worry I'm not a law maker.

[Getanet]

Exactly. It's about the hunt. That's what I said. All kinds of thrills from many different things. We choose hunting. I know it helps their food budget, but it's not the main reason they hunt. Like I said the dnr or venison donations or even neighbor would maybe give up some venison. We're all trophy hunting. Every deer is a trophy right?

Yes, every deer is a trophy. APRs fly in the face of that.

Are you telling me you'd prefer someone swallow their pride and go looking for charity with their head down and hand out, rather than shoot an otherwise perfectly healthy buck?

[surewood]

I don't remember saying at anytime that everyone is out for a trophy of large antlers.

[Big Dave2]

...Why do you want young deer to live another year? If your answer does not contain "larger antlers" you are lieing through your teeth....

[Big Dave2]

I don't remember saying at anytime that everyone is out for a trophy of large antlers.

Then there is no reason to support APR.

[surewood]

Getanet, that wasn't my point at all. Point is we don't hunt just for the meat. It's for the hunt whether we pull the trigger or not.

[96trigger]

Quote:

hunting pictures frequently showed groups of hunters with all the deer shot, buck, doe and fawn.

My point exactly, years ago it was about how many, now its about size, it is no different. Ever see many pictures of 10 guys standing in front of 1 small deer? Not very often....

I'm glad some people still do it the way they always have. I don't prosecute Amish people for still driving horses and buggies and going without electricity, but I sure as heck don't want to live that way. You can hunt however makes you happy, but the regulations are going to change, regardless of your ideals or my ideals. We are regulated on everything from vehicles, to fish, to deer. I understand that some of you are fundamentally against more regulations, that is fine. We are never going to agree.

You can talk about how its all about the kids, the history, the enjoyment, the meat, etc..., but let us know specifically, how this regulation will change your lifestyle of hunting. Will you quit taking your kids? Will the history go away? Do you have to quit using matches, compasses, and wool clothes? Do you enjoy being out in the woods less because you can't shoot a buck with under 4 points?

I don't get all the Wisconsin and Iowa comparisons, we are three very different states. Wisconsin hunts out of the peak of the rut, Iowa hunts out of the rut and doesn't have anywhere near the hunters.

The one thing we agree on is getting youth involved. I am constantly involved in getting youth excited about the outdoors. No matter if its shooting trap, catching panfish, or some kids 1st deer. Our goal should be to get them outside by all means possible and get them away from the TV and video games.

[Big Dave2]

Getanet, that wasn't my point at all. Point is we don't hunt just for the meat. It's for the hunt whether we pull the trigger or not.

That's YOUR view, not the view of every Minnesota deer hunter.

[surewood]

Why make everyone that enjoys larger antlers evil? Are we morally bad people cause of it? Do we not respect deer and hunting as much as others? Do we not get a say cause it's not your tradition? People make it sound like we're gonna destroy deer hunting. We have as much right to our opinions.

[96trigger]

Quote:

That's YOUR view, not the view of every Minnesota deer hunter.

No but its becoming the view of many, in some areas the majority, you can sit and argue about it until your blue in the face, its not going to change. You will obviously believe what you want, then cut and paste quotes to twist words around, you are very skilled at that. It will not change the outcome of what is coming for the STATE of Minnesota, yep, I said it, the state of Minnesota, in areas that are managed or intensive. I know that this was successful in zone 3, I know that others are going to see it. I know hunter satisfaction is up. I know when that gets out, there will be other areas in the state that want to try it.

[surewood]

Agreed Dave. You are a rare individual in that aspect I believe. I won't cut on you for what you want or what you believe cause it's different then some of my ideals. I do many of the same things as you. I just have other ways of going about it.

[surewood]

Wondering when you'd chime in trigger. Alot of heat on me today.

[TruthWalleyes]

I know that this was successful in zone 3

How do you know this.

[picksbigwagon]

My tune has changed on the whole idea of changing MN hunting regs: I am still on the fence about APR's, I used to be against them, I am on the fence now. I see both sides of the argument and it is what keeps getting rehashed here every couple of months.

We don't know what the age structure of the herd is because the state doesn't track that and I am not sure if they can even track it. MN has over a half a million people out deer hunting, I am not even sure if Iowa has 100K deer hunters. When stats like 80% are thrown out there, I question where the numbers come from.

If you want to protect the bucks, move the season out of the rut.

Some of you are arguing points and splitting hairs, APR is not gonna change at this point, I don't see it expanding and truthfully, I haven't hunted in MN for a few years now, but I used to hunt in 346 and 349, and from the pictures I have seen, there are some big bucks being harvested this fall and I have to believe it is part because of the APR. Not sure how this makes the herd "healthier" though. Of course that part of the state has always had big bucks running around. Mostly because of the terrain.....

[Getanet]

I'm not so sure about that Picks. I certainly think there is a very active movement to push APRs state-wide, or at least expand it to more zones. I don't believe they are the majority, but they are definitely more organized, more vocal, and as the saying goes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Many hunters, particularly up North, probably don't even realize they will need to defend the status quo.

It's fine that we all have opinions on these matters. I have a million opinions on things, but rarely do I think they should be used to change the way others do things.

If you get a survey from the DNR asking about these issues, let's not pretend you're simply giving your opinion. You're casting a vote.

Unless biologists say changes are needed, I vote to give the individual the choice of what is acceptable.

[PurpleFloyd]

Quote:

hunting pictures frequently showed groups of hunters with all the deer shot, buck, doe and fawn.

My point exactly, years ago it was about how many, now its about size, it is no different. Ever see many pictures of 10 guys standing in front of 1 small deer? Not very often....

Actually our group still does that every year. The deer are all in the picture as are all the hunters. We butcher the deer and they are all processed together and it all tastes the same. We generally keep the antlers no matter if it is a small buck or a really nice one.

And I have no intent of changing but if we do it won't be because we are told we have to.