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APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?


lakevet

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In the winter 2012 BWA newsletter the following quotes by the DNR's Marrett Grund:

“APRs are great for hunter recruitment, but not hunter retention.”

and

“25 percent of Minnesota’s hunters are over age 65.”

No matter what your stand on APR's all I have to say is be sure to take kids (yours and/or someone elses) hunting as much as you can. I did today.

lakevet

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Here's another: " wether or not to continue APR's will not be science based decision, it will be based on politics".

MDHA dosen't believe in science or biological data unless it cita their agenda. So they would rather have politicians decide how our deer herd should be managed. What a great organization.

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Here's another: " wether or not to continue APR's will not be science based decision, it will be based on politics".

MDHA dosen't believe in science or biological data unless it cita their agenda. So they would rather have politicians decide how our deer herd should be managed. What a great organization.

Every person that hunts deer think they are a scientist. Just read some of the idiotic posts on here from people that don't get to shoot a deer every year but think they are entitled to a trophy buck every fall.

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  • 'we have more fun' FishingMN Builders

I say get rid of APR because for a kid who is starting out and gets so excited that a buck is coming with in range. they should not be focused on antlers but on the chest of the deer where they should shoot it. I believe the ideas of most hunters are changing their minds on just shooting any buck. A trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. My cousin is a taxidermist and has mounted deer most of would not think were big enough. I seen a guy bring in a maybe 100 inch 9 pointer and it was the biggest buck he ever shot in 29 years. I think APR restrictions are okay for selected hunts such as state parks or city hunts. Because its my choice to hunt during those hunts. I have got my dad and uncles to finally start letting yearling bucks walk, I admit they still seem to shoot 2 year old deer with fail, but I am working on that. Telling them if they give those bucks one more year he will be much bigger deer.

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Here's another: " wether or not to continue APR's will not be science based decision, it will be based on politics".

MDHA dosen't believe in science or biological data unless it cita their agenda. So they would rather have politicians decide how our deer herd should be managed. What a great organization.

Sounds just like the DNR to me. Why not let our DNR "area managers" decide whats best for their "areas" rather than a guy behind a desk with his doctorate in st.paul. I dont get it.

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Actually Monstermoose they don't impose it on kids, they can shoot any buck. The harvest is up about 20% from last year at this time so APR are working just as planned. I think it has been a huge success and hope they continue it in zone 3. Don't worry up north hunters they are not going to implement it in zone 1, so you guys that want can continue to shoot forky.

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Every person that hunts deer think they are a scientist. Just read some of the idiotic posts on here from people that don't get to shoot a deer every year but think they are entitled to a trophy buck every fall.

Could not agree more!

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One thing is clear. Tension in the hunting forums is high these days. Whats up? smile

Before season its pretty upbeat for the most part. LOLLL

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Actually Monstermoose they don't impose it on kids, they can shoot any buck. The harvest is up about 20% from last year at this time so APR are working just as planned. I think it has been a huge success and hope they continue it in zone 3. Don't worry up north hunters they are not going to implement it in zone 1, so you guys that want can continue to shoot forky.

Hey Muskie, could you elaborate on the 20%? Of bucks specifically or total harvest?

I not in favor of a state-wide APR, but I am interested in the results of APRs in Zone 3. This is Year 3 correct? So at some point we should have some hard data as to whether the goals where achieved, and I would also assume they will conduct a survey to determine hunter satisfaction from the new regs.

It will be nice to have some real data to look at.

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This is year 3, and kids do not have to obey APR rules - which is great!!

Not a fan of APR myself, but i also don't shoot small bucks. I beleive it is up to the man with the gun to decide his buck of choice. As said above, Trophy is in the eye of the individual hunter. I've let soo many legal bucks walk to grow bigger another day, but i do not support legislating against the shooting of <4pt deer.

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According to Lou on kfan last night the buck harvest is up 20% not sure on overall harvest. He said it is going exactly to plan. 1st year buck harvest down then improve next few years until its back to pre apr numbers but now they year class of average buck has improved by about a year.

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Here's another: " wether or not to continue APR's will not be science based decision, it will be based on politics".

MDHA dosen't believe in science or biological data unless it cita their agenda. So they would rather have politicians decide how our deer herd should be managed. What a great organization.

Really? MDHA doesn't believe in biological data? Where do you get that from?

You do realize that BWA has absolutely nothing to do with MDHA, right?

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Yeah, most of the posts are picking up the generals from the experiment.

Yes, its the third year and it will be reviewed after the season is over.

Yes, there will be input from the hunters and landowners.

Yes, the age class is improving.

Yes, it's going exactly how they thought it would.

And most important of all: wink

Yes, I've hunted zone 3 areas for 20 years and have personally seen and improvement in the buck population over the past two.

Yes, I shot a 125" 10 pointer last year in 3b.

Yes, I'll be holding off for one better this year.

Yes, I think I have an honest shot of accomplishing the goal sans unusual circumstances.

& finally:

Yes, I see both sides of the argument as valid. No, I don't think this argument will end until our young hunters become our old hunters.

Yes, I'm favor of statewide APRs if only to avoid the crowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of the state.

2c

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we had APR in our area for 3 years now and guess what I still see more spikes than anything our place just will not hold "trophy" deer whatsoever if it did work I would have seen more 8 points and hear more ppl shooting bucks but since its been the same APR did not work, IN OUR AREA that is thank god its no longer APR next year

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we had APR in our area for 3 years now and guess what I still see more spikes than anything our place just will not hold "trophy" deer whatsoever if it did work I would have seen more 8 points and hear more ppl shooting bucks but since its been the same APR did not work, IN OUR AREA that is thank god its no longer APR next year

We've never really had spikes in our area, they've pretty much always either been 3/4 pointers, or basket 8's, so APR's don't protect the vast majority of the deer in our area.

However, we do have a genetic anomaly in our area where some deer don't grow brow tines, ever. That makes for one heck of a big 6-pointer after a few years that we haven't been allowed to shoot.

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What i said was they don't believe in biological data unless it supports their agenda, told to me by the big guy himself in grand rapids a couple years ago, when MDHA was trying to overturn the APR study in zone 3 after years of hard work by hunters, sportsmans groups ect. to try to get an older age class of bucks, MDHA lost the fight and decided they will stop the rule because it didn't fit their agenda, guess who else tries to stop hunters rights/hunting? PETA and now MDHA.

never said anything about bluffland.

as to the topic of this post APR's atleast spark an interest in hunting for recruitment, but retention can't be blamed maybe they decided huntig was'nt for them but it got their interest.

it's good to know spike hunting is the answer for retention.LOL

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This is the 3rd year in 3B and much of the area has dropped harvest from 5 to 2. We haven't seen numbers to support selective shooting and, while hunting at the end of the season, we're not picking racks, we're shooting for meat. Nobody in our party expects to see big racks more than on occasion (like a trophy fish) and our party harvest has dropped significantly from 12-16/ season down to 6. Numbers like this are not helping thin the herd and rare only frustrating members of our party (and others we know) to second guess if they want to go out thereby jeopardizing what the DNR calls the "traditional" season for many hunters...all for vanity of a large buck?!

What are the odds of having a shootable buck at the end of the season when everyone before you is targeting the minority of the herd? We have only seen predominantly spikes and small baskets with a few doe sprinked in over the previous 2 seasons.

If they made a state-wide walleye restriction of fish >27" for harvest with 100% C&R <27" in Mille Lacs and LOW how much of a stink do you think this would raise?

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This is the 3rd year in 3B and much of the area has dropped harvest from 5 to 2. We haven't seen numbers to support selective shooting and, while hunting at the end of the season, we're not picking racks, we're shooting for meat. Nobody in our party expects to see big racks more than on occasion (like a trophy fish) and our party harvest has dropped significantly from 12-16/ season down to 6. Numbers like this are not helping thin the herd and rare only frustrating members of our party (and others we know) to second guess if they want to go out thereby jeopardizing what the DNR calls the "traditional" season for many hunters...all for vanity of a large buck?!

What are the odds of having a shootable buck at the end of the season when everyone before you is targeting the minority of the herd? We have only seen predominantly spikes and small baskets with a few doe sprinked in over the previous 2 seasons.

If they made a state-wide walleye restriction of fish >27" for harvest with 100% C&R <27" in Mille Lacs and LOW how much of a stink do you think this would raise?

come on now, this is a "biologically sound" experiment. How can it not be working? lol

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I guess the debate had to start sometime......

After year 3 of APR, just about everyone I have talked to is loving it. I haven't heard anyone complain this year. Lots of great deer taken this year in my area. I really do not see it going away. I will be very surprised if hunter satisfaction isn't way up. Guess we will just have to wait and see. As for the kids, I can tell you this, a lot of my students shot nice bucks this year, way more than any other year. Many of them also shot fork horns and baskets. Every deer was a trophy to them, but if you don't think todays kids know the difference between a mature buck and an immature buck, you are dead wrong. Many of these kids, are all for APRs. These teenagers go to bed at night dreaming of the monster buck, just like so many of us do. Their generation will push for APR s probably harder than the ones that are right now. I just don't see it going anywhere fellas, and I am fairly well connected to the people in this community. If it goes away, it will come from some other area, probably some area outside of zone 3.

I always get a kick out of people that post on this topic yet have never hunted down here. One last comment, Bluffland Whitetails is a top notch organization. They are active in the southeast, they do a lot for deer, deer hunting, and deer hunters, and they will continue to do those things, with or without APR.

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that pic I posted of my poppas big bruiser was suppose to be mine, ran so fast down into the valley all I saw was gray following it with my handgun I knew its a impossible shot luckily seconds later I heard my poppas gun and he radioed me 15 minutes later trembling saying.... I just got a BIG BUCK. The thing about this deer is he was not because of APR he was the big boy ppl were chasing for 2 years in my stand during archery and they told me 2 years ago, yea theirs a big buck that comes around your spot but only in darkness. Boy was me poppa one lucky s0b. They looked pretty down as you can tell they probobly pursued this buck for the last 2 years to find out we got him out of blind luck.

Any ways I feel this APR needs to go in our area atleast we are all meat hunters we prefer does and antlerless deer and spikes mature bucks we don't mind either so really all we want is meat same as everyone else down there, big deer are just the added lucky easter eggs. I can understand IF a certain area had the abilities to raise big trophys such as food and Genetics but our area just simply does not no matter how bad you would like to think it does. This study needs to take in consideration actual location of the woods besides just the zone because in the same zone there is another pair of woods my elders has hunted that had not trophy big boys but nice 8 and 10's that are much more better looking than the one my poppa got. I consider my poppa's deer a big ugly rack that is lucky enough to be big enough to make up for its own uglinest

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I dont like the APR's. Im from winona- 345 bluff country. Big bucks are nice, but when I started when I was 11 with a gun-even went before that without. I was raised for the meat not the antlers.

I recently got my wife involved in bowhunting. She has had 5 opportunities @ bucks ranging from forks to 6pters... This is her second year without a deer so far. I couldnt tell you why a doe hasnt walked her way but it hasnt. My grandfather also started with crossbow the same time- and his luck has been the same. My grandfather is over 70, this will be his last year up in a tree stand and is ready to hang it up for good because its becoming assinine for him to get out and shoot for freezer fodder, my wife- getting pretty disgusted with apr's many of the deer she would have been able to take would have been a trophy to her and myself for the memories they would hold. Its great kids dont have to worry about them, and the memories Ive personally seen are from growing up with buddies that have been happy with the 5pter they got because it put backstraps on the table.

Im sick of SOME people ruining it for meat hunters in pursuit of a bigger buck-lets be honest a buck with great potential is most likely going to get taken @ 2 1/2 years old maybe even younger by the meat hunter.- (not everyone is going to pass on a basket 8 - me personally heck yeah I would but I know its potential others dont care). Unless your property is managed for big boys, which quite a bit isnt why put a restriction on people that just want the meat.

From what Ive seen on the property I hunt= 15 bucks, 10 does.... 9 of those deer I cant even shoot-4 of which have ugly alien looking racks- which were offspring of a 3pt 2 1/2yo I had to pass last year because of apr- Now this year the buck I call alien is 3 1/2yo with 5 pts... Next year will he go 4pts on one side... Probably... But the offspring he'll create will only add more non-legal 3 year un- shootable aliens... As far as management wise bucks on my land are becoming over populated and not shoot able.

The devastation they took on the soybean crop this year was almost tearful. Its farmers land not big buck management land. The farm family I hunt with has always been after meat not antlers, big bucks have always been around, but they live off venison, raise pigs and make all their own burger and what have you. They dont go to the store to buy a pound... Most cant fathom this but its part of the way some people live- and is becoming less and less of what hunting is about.

Overall, if there "goal" was to create more 3 1/2yo mature deer, Id say yes for next year... As for bigger bucks and numbers of bigger bucks for an area Id say heck no. Around most parts where I hunt- if its brown its down-which has turned into Does it have 4pts-sure does-whack!

So yeah recruitment hmm No... Retention... Hmm No.

If I had kids it wouldnt matter... But I have people I would love to get into hunting but couldnt stand watching what I already do- I hate watching my Grandfather and Wife come home disappointed that they had deer within range but couldnt shoot-again.

I think its deterring some people from wanting to go another season... Some say "Why not just shoot a doe?" Well in both these cases they would have loved to but didn't get the opportunity. I believe dropping the number of deer taken(lottery etc) will help increase numbers and maturity w/o interfering with meat hunters and new hunters introduced over 18yo. Down here they did both. Just my observation with my reasons- no numbers out of a book or website.

I hope you guys wont criticize my opinion and pick it apart like many do to guys on forums. The ? was asked, so I gave my information that I knew on the subject from my personal observations on my land in 345 . smile

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Laska,

I think you (and handgunner) have described peoples biggest frustration with APR. I do not think we have had the doe population the DNR has predicted and the multiple years of intensive harvest have lest a smaller than normal doe population. For people to be happy with APR, their needs to be an abundance of deer, my doe sightings were very low last year, and were only slightly better this year, I'm hoping next year they are back to where we see does pretty consistently on the stand. Deer seemed to be in pockets this year, a lot of it was feast or famine. I know from your posts in the archery thread, you put in a lot of time too. I personally have really come to like them, but still understand that some people can be frustrated by them.

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I would like to see it go state wide. However, I understand the politics. For those who only hunt a weekend out of the whole year I understand why they would not like to see it. I bow hunt, rifle hunt, and muzzleload hunt so for me not an issue. But for those that oppose it I can understand why.

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Laska,

I think you (and handgunner) have described peoples biggest frustration with APR. I do not think we have had the doe population the DNR has predicted and the multiple years of intensive harvest have lest a smaller than normal doe population. For people to be happy with APR, their needs to be an abundance of deer, my doe sightings were very low last year, and were only slightly better this year, I'm hoping next year they are back to where we see does pretty consistently on the stand. Deer seemed to be in pockets this year, a lot of it was feast or famine. I know from your posts in the archery thread, you put in a lot of time too. I personally have really come to like them, but still understand that some people can be frustrated by them.

Really, after the mildest winter in years, the population is still hurting? Try talking to the guys whose job it is to manage the herd in the area and see what they say about dropping the bag limits. Try talking to the new DNR depredation specialist in the southeast and see how he feels about dropping bag limits during a year when crop damage was higher than it has EVER been. Try talking to the farmers in those areas, many of who are losing 10-20% of their crops due to deer. After you talk to those guys, come back and tell me the population isn't too high in a lot of areas, and I'll call you a liar.

Now tell me that APR's have increase doe harvest the way the DNR told us it would. We were finally getting close to having the population under reasonable control in the majority of Zone 3, and then groups like BWA force APR's down hunter's throats using a faulty survey written by the DNR, and now the populations are out of control again.

Many farmers will be getting dozens of tags to shoot deer next year, and it doesn't matter what the deer are, the tags are legal for anything. So much for APR's with those tags. Thankfully, they should finally get them during the seasons rather than in August, but it's still pretty sad that the higher-ps in the DNR won't listen to the guys that are handing these tags out.

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I'm sure there are locally isolated areas where the deer population is higher than some. Laska and I have both been seeing lower deer numbers. I know that where you are, the deer population is exceptionally high for whatever reason. I appreciate your point of view, but how can we have multiple people saying that they aren't seeing the deer, yet you know of a place where the deer are like rats. Maybe you need to shoot a few more, bring in some extra guys. Just curious as to what area or town this place is at. I have heard few people say that they are seeing an over abundance of deer. I put on a lot of miles in the middle of 342, I do not see the deer herds that are capable of what you are describing. I, unlike you, will not call you a liar, I've been at this long enough to know that you can get locally isolated pockets of deer in higher numbers. If that happens around here, farmers just tell us to shoot more does, and we do.

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I'm sure there are locally isolated areas where the deer population is higher than some. Laska and I have both been seeing lower deer numbers. I know that where you are, the deer population is exceptionally high for whatever reason. I appreciate your point of view, but how can we have multiple people saying that they aren't seeing the deer, yet you know of a place where the deer are like rats. Maybe you need to shoot a few more, bring in some extra guys. Just curious as to what area or town this place is at. I have heard few people say that they are seeing an over abundance of deer. I put on a lot of miles in the middle of 342, I do not see the deer herds that are capable of what you are describing. I, unlike you, will not call you a liar, I've been at this long enough to know that you can get locally isolated pockets of deer in higher numbers. If that happens around here, farmers just tell us to shoot more does, and we do.

We've been taking 25 deer per year off the 500 acres (not all woods obviously) we hunt for the last 5 years in 346. Our neighbors who also hunt the same and surrounding areas during the A season have been taking between 25 and 50 per year. The people who hunt the lands during the Muzzy season take about 20 per year. The archery hunters who hunt the areas take another 10 per year. So tell me how we can take more deer, especially when we're down to 2 deer per person this year?

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I agree completely with trigger.

Although I posted "yes, I shot a 125" 10 pointer..." my intent last season was to shoot the first two adult deer I saw, whether they be does or the first legal buck due to the fact that I had only two days to hunt for myself out of the entire season and we had no deer in the freezer.

I never was able to get that second deer last year as I never saw a doe I could get a decent shot at. I saw a few legal bucks though but didn't shoot because of the no cross tagging rule. My buddy left the weekend with no deer.

We never thought we'd go to the farm with four tags and fire arms an come out of it with only one deer. But I'm fine with that; it wasn't my first year hunting and God willing won't be my last.

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First off if you are a kid or a senior you can shoot whatever buck you want, APR doesn't apply to these people. I have a farm in 343 that I hunt weekends and I hunt Whitewater Monday - Wednesday during the week. I also have 6 other people that hunt Whitewater for the whole time Sat-Wed. We have been hunting there for about 8 years with the whole group and the results of APR are amazing there. The number of 2.5 yr old and older bucks we have seen the last few years compared to the previous 5 is amazing. Not saying all areas are like that but a area like Whitewater where if its got horns its dead mentality really shows how good APR can work.

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