APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[bigbucks]

I understand your point & choose to target older deer too, but again the older deer meaning a healthier herd just doesn't hold water. A buck, or a doe for that matter, passes on the same genes when it's a year-old as it does when it's ten.

My kids are three years apart, does my younger one have better genetics?

I realize they're my kids so they're already behind the 8 ball, but you get my point...

[slimngrizzly]

I think it should be against the law to kill a buck until hes 4 1/2 years old. Then you can just get rid of the APR's all together. Whichever side youre on, I think thats only fair to the deer.

Does the deer have any say? What if they dont want to be killed while theyre still on moms tit? What if the deer wants to have kids and be a grandpa? We could be civil enough to allow them that time before we kill them.

Id support that.

[bigbucks]

I think it should be against the law to kill a buck until hes 4 1/2 years old. Then you can just get rid of the APR's all together. Whichever side youre on, I think thats only fair to the deer.

Does the deer have any say? What if they dont want to be killed while theyre still on moms tit? What if the deer wants to have kids and be a grandpa? We could be civil enough to allow them that time before we kill them.

Id support that.

Do they carry an AARP card or perhaps an APR card when they're grandparents so we know they're okay to shoot?

[jay83196]

Slim....I can't tell if your serious or not if you are....really! "civil and let them be grandparents"? Wait until 4.5 years old, you gona come show us all how to age a deer 200yds away?

And make it fair to the deer..Better start using a knife or bow you make yourself, better yet chase em down and use bare hands, otherwise pretty sure shooting them from 200yds away isn't really fair. If they could talk on the tit or 4.5 years old, pretty sure they wouldn't want to die anytime! Those are some of the best ideas yet, WOW!

How's this, we leave it alone, or get rid if intensive harvest continue having wolf season things will be fine!

[jay83196]

Lol!

They get grey, wear glasses, and have to get up 2-3 times in the middle of night to wiz.

Were talking more humane, civil and fair....if those are your real reasons why does that only apply to bucks? It's ok to slaughter doe but wrong a buck? I haven't heard doe mentioned once, All about rack for you, who are some of you guys kidding...

[TruthWalleyes]

My motivation isn't about my success. It's about the success of young deer living more then a year. It's about the quality of deer hunting we could offer the people living here not just me. We have a ton of potential in MN to offer it's residents quality deer statewide. I know "quality" is different to different people. My idea of quality is young deer surviving and maintaining a healthy herd. Hopefully those two go hand in hand.

I like your statement. I agree with the sentiment. I would rather let education run it's course teaching qdm and have it take many years than force it on others without the data to support harvest of older deer or data that supports herd health.

Good discussion surewood.

[surewood]

Slim I didn't mean old deer created a healthy herd. I mean older age structure in addition to a healthy herd.

[leech~~]

I think it should be against the law to kill a buck until hes 4 1/2 years old. Then you can just get rid of the APR's all together. Whichever side youre on, I think thats only fair to the deer.

Does the deer have any say? What if they dont want to be killed while theyre still on moms tit? What if the deer wants to have kids and be a grandpa? We could be civil enough to allow them that time before we kill them.

Id support that.

Ok well maybe the next election we can vote on Deer's Rights as well!

[Boar]

I think we should all sit down together an listen to some lional ritchie music, listen to wat lionel has to say an then go icefishing.

[PropsterII]

There is absolutely no question that a better ratio of mature bucks makes for a "healthier" herd, and I'm not talking about sickness and disease, though that is a possibility as well. I'm talking about a better balance, a better buck:doe ratio. Less breeding by immature bucks. A more intense rut. Better age structure. Anybody who thinks shooting 80% immature bucks is a good thing and we should just leave well enough alone - you want to talk about selfish....

[certified jumbo]

i could be wrong, but i think a 1.5 year old buck is considered an adult. thus making it mature

[Spike76]

In the late 60's, I shot a #107 doe with the bow and got a trophy. I was taught than that all deer are trophies. I'm happy just to shoot any deer. I always save my horns and I've got many spikes. Remember, when you limit what a hunter can shoot, it could be his last hunt and you kept him from the treasured memory of taking a deer. At least 3 or 4 times through the years I've shot spikes and forks that I thought were does. Luckily we had buck tags.

[nonteepical]

a 1.5 year old is simply a yearling, not considered an adult in the real world, but we live in minnesota.

if you went by a herds age structure in minnesota you could maybe make that arguement but probobly 2.5 would be more accurate. in the real deer world with a balanced age structure i'd say 4.5 would be maturity.

[nonteepical]

At least 3 or 4 times through the years I've shot spikes and forks that I thought were does. Luckily we had buck tags.

scary. i could see maybe that happening once in a lifetime but 3-4 times, no wonder you don't want annyone to tell you what you can shoot. another reason for no cross tagging of bucks.

[TruthWalleyes]

DATA?

80% immature?

State wide?

Zone specific?

[hockeybc69]

this topic is getting comical...

[Big Dave2]

There is absolutely no question that a better ratio of mature bucks makes for a "healthier" herd, and I'm not talking about sickness and disease, though that is a possibility as well. I'm talking about a better balance, a better buck:doe ratio. Less breeding by immature bucks. A more intense rut. Better age structure. Anybody who thinks shooting 80% immature bucks is a good thing and we should just leave well enough alone - you want to talk about selfish....

I think there is plenty of question.........

[Big Dave2]

Current apr regs would be fine. We're not looking for 180" deer everywhere. We want young deer to live another year or two not be slaughtered the first year of their life.

You can keep using the word slaughter for more drama effect all you want but if all we had were 2 1/2 year old deer they would be getting "slaughtered" also. Every deer you have ever killed has been "slaughtered". 1 1/2 year old does get "slaughtered" every year.

Why do you want young deer to live another year? If your answer does not contain "larger antlers" you are lieing through your teeth. If these bucks did not have antlers we would not be having this discussion. No one cares if young does are shot, no one cares if young pheasants are shot, etc, etc.

What it comes down to is that the ruination of hunting will be the fact that the reason for hunting in the first place has changed so dramatically. It used to be that people hunted for food, now it's for trophies. That's what I call selfish.

[Big Dave2]

I got curious and emailed the dnr. They mentioned they're getting more positive feedback this year on apr.

Yeah.....I'm sure they would tell you if it were anything different.

[Big Dave2]

Some day it may come to a vote and we'll all have our chance to be for or against.

I would think that we should leave animal biology issues to the biologists rather than put it up to a popular vote?

[hockeybc69]

And the comedy continues... LOLLLL

[zepman]

Nevermind the horns....the LAND should be the main issue here.

If you hunt private property and it's not yours...you should be very nervous right now...

If you don't believe me, just wait and see....

[nonteepical]

I'm not sure i believe you, so just tell us.

[james_walleye]

In the late 60's, I shot a #107 doe with the bow and got a trophy. I was taught than that all deer are trophies. I'm happy just to shoot any deer. I always save my horns and I've got many spikes. Remember, when you limit what a hunter can shoot, it could be his last hunt and you kept him from the treasured memory of taking a deer. At least 3 or 4 times through the years I've shot spikes and forks that I thought were does. Luckily we had buck tags.

That is something I wouldn't admit on a hunting forum. APRs or not you have to identify your Target.

[surewood]

BD2, nobody has to hunt for food anymore. Really? nobody cares about the age of pheasants and does. Kinda hard to judge a pheasants and does age. You can think I'm selfish all you want. I've killed some nice bucks over the years without apr and will continue to. Minnesota has much more potential to offer it's residents. As a group right now we won't reach it without change. I'm not worried about myself I do just fine. Somehow I get the feeling you're the kinda guy that would say left if I said right just to argue. All these things are just one person (my) opinion. So don't worry, be happy we all can have an opinion.

[muskiemanAD]

We had a good conversation over Thanksgiving. There are 3 new young hunters to our group 2 have shot nice bucks while the the other missed one last year. They are all for APR, they would much rather have a chance to kill a nice buck and eat tag soup or shoot a doe then smoke some spike buck. All of their friends have this same mentality too. It seems that those against APR are the old timers that like to whack and stack the deer and use everyone else's tag. I think trigger made a comment about this too with the kids in his class. They all want to shoot nice bucks its the old timers that don't want to change and say the kids won't hunt if they can't spill blood every year....

[slimngrizzly]

Slim I didn't mean old deer created a healthy herd. I mean older age structure in addition to a healthy herd.

I know exactly what you mean Surewood. I would say my views/goals reflect yours in this topic. In all seriousness though, I would LOVE it if deer couldn't be taken until 4 1/2! Bucks, doe's, all of them.... why not let them live to show their potential!?!? I know its not going to happen and it would be impossible to age does on the hoof... Its rediculous to even think about. But I too would love to see deer get older somehow.

We have an extremely low percentage of old animals, and an extremely high percentage of young animals! The young survivors fill the gaps of such a high mortality rate! The high number of 1 1/2 year olds killed are constantly replaced by fawns... then to be killed the next year. And naturally a few slip through the cracks and make it to an older age......... This all "works", our numbers are there, the sex ratio is there (to start with), by why would would anyone support a system that restricts an animals ability to mature??? I just dont get it.

If you were to look at a graph of the age structure of our deer herd in populated MN, i'd be willing to bet that chart would look almost identical to that of a 3RD WORLD COUNTRY! Thats mananagement!? Not in my eyes...

[PurpleFloyd]

Funny you mention kids, many of those kids are WAY more into "horn porn" than many of us. TV, hunting video games (deer hunter, big game hunter), special seasons, instant gratification...etc... what do you think the majority of them are going to want after shooting a few deer and some small bucks? Just something to think about while all of you talk about how its all about the kids. Love or hate APR, the future generations will change the way we hunt, for good or bad. One thing for sure, it will change.

I have seen first hand (high school) kids that shoot small bucks get teased and ridiculed (it's friendly ridicule, but there is always a hint of sincerity to it). I always put a stop to it, and let the kid getting teased know that it is just fine if they are happy with it and its legal, they should not care what anybody else thinks.

A group that hunts in a neighboring area to me that has relatives in it are big time into the whole porn horn thing to the extent that one of the young boys who was probably in 8th grade last year shot an 8 point buck that wasn't big enough for the standards of some in the group and they actually yelled at him for shooting a buck that wasn't big enough and ripped him up one side and down the other. Call me crazy but I will let a kid choose what he wants to do and congratulate him for whatever it is rather than belittle him for not meeting my standards.

It is sad to see what hunting is coming to these days and pray that I am dead and in the ground when they start to tell us we can't shoot a rooster until it has a 24 inch tail feather.They all taste the same when they come out of the frying pan. Sometimes the smaller ones taste better.

As to the whole let the small ones walk, that might work in some high density areas but in cornfield county and especially if you don't party hunt, you may see only one deer in range the whole gun season. And with the limited number of doe tags the DNR hands out ( we had 0 tags for 9 adult hunters in our party) how are we supposed to let a buck pass? And who has the justification to tell me to if I don't want to anyway?

[PurpleFloyd]

There is absolutely no question that a better ratio of mature bucks makes for a "healthier" herd, and I'm not talking about sickness and disease, though that is a possibility as well. I'm talking about a better balance, a better buck:doe ratio. Less breeding by immature bucks. A more intense rut. Better age structure. Anybody who thinks shooting 80% immature bucks is a good thing and we should just leave well enough alone - you want to talk about selfish....

[slimngrizzly]

If we kill them all at 1 1/2 or younger.... what does genetics matter anyway. They're all gonna be brown with a little bit of meat on them, theres no changing that.