APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[96trigger]

Quote:

I don't disagree with you but I would say if you accuse me of stretching the truth, if you are asserting that every 1.5 YO male deer is shot then I would say you are stretching much much farther.

And if it does survive it's first 1.5 years but then comes by you at 2.5 and you shoot it then it still doesn't reach maturity and to me that is where the solution lies.

Not every 1.5 year old is shot, if that were the case, then there would be no bucks, period, right? What we probably should say is that too many are getting shot.

A lot of the shooting a 1.5 vs 2.5 year old argument comes from the fact that the 1.5 year old buck is the easiest deer in the woods to kill. They come in readily to calls, seem to have no fear, and are often alone and cruising during daylight hours. Many times, they are the first deer someone sees. A 2.5 year old buck is a much different adversary than the fork or basket 1.5 year old. APR results in more 2.5 year old bucks making it to 3.5, then some of those 3.5 year olds make it to 4.5, etc.... It does lead to an increase in age structure.

[LandDr]

Why is a high doe to buck ratio bad for the heard or APRs? 6:1 for example?

Thanks

[flipper]

Yeah, that was a common sight in zone 3 for many years, with the exception that when they did the deer drives, (witnessed many) hordes of does would come out with a couple forkies trailing them (of course the mature bucks bail out before getting to the posters) and instead of taking the mature does for meat the small bucks were targeted.

No-one down here believes they are owed a trophy buck every year without a lot of effort, time in the woods, and alot of luck, but we do know the law of averages and that if X amount of 1.5 year old bucks are not shot, then Y amount of these will make it to age 2.5 by dumb luck thus making the hunt in zone 3 for mature der alot more equitable.

Easy decision, stay out of zone 3 if you don't like it. If you want meat there are plenty of does.

Maybe those who want to change the regulations statewide should just stay out of the state. Easy decision.

JFYI, Not everyone who is against APRs shoots every young buck they see or has a goal of filling their freezer. I haven't shot anything but does for over 15 years and I am selective on does as well. Those who want to change hunting to an elitist sport have been watching too much TV IMO.

[monstermoose78]

I am against APR'S because people will just shoot the 2.5 year old bucks instead of the 1.5 year old deer. They still don't make it to 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, or older. I think the best thing is to educate hunters about harvesting more does and be picky about it look for out button bucks. I know that I have gotten my hunting group to let the little bucks walk and they have been doing it. Some of them want deer to eat so they shoot does. expect this year they did not see a doe or a buck until the 6th day of the hunt and it happened to be a 6 pointer that walked out in front of my uncle who wanted a deer to eat. He told my dad he wanted a doe to come out but he had to go home the next day. To me its ok because it was his choice and he thought about about letting the 6 pointer walk, but shot it knowing he wanted to have some deer to eat. I hunt in the arrowhead and wolves take the weak deer which is young,sick, and old.

The fishing example is great guys. Look at Mille Lacs Lake hmm where are the little walleyes. In time there will not be any big ones left because we harvest all the small ones before they get to a breeding age.

[22lex]

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Maybe those who want to change the regulations statewide should just stay out of the state. Easy decision.

JFYI, Not everyone who is against APRs shoots every young buck they see or has a goal of filling their freezer. I haven't shot anything but does for over 15 years and I am selective on does as well. Those who want to change hunting to an elitist sport have been watching too much TV IMO.

IMO I don't care if it goes statewide, works for zone 3, you want to shoot whatever walks because you don't want big brothers boot on your throat don't hunt in zone three. Please don't passive-agressively complain about it on a website because it makes you feel better 'cause you didn't fill your tag when you visited for a brief period. If you don't like APR, don't let it spread to your zone, but don't pretend to know how good/bad it is in zone 3.

For the record I do not see this as an elitist sport. I shot my first buck in 5 years this year, years past I have taken 2 does a season as the rules/time would allow.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I am against APR'S because people will just shoot the 2.5 year old bucks instead of the 1.5 year old deer. They still don't make it to 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, or older.

I could not disagree with this statement more.

[monstermoose78]

It will start at 4 points a side, then the horn porn guys will push for it to be 5, then 6, then 7, and so on. Where does that get us?

[22lex]

It will start at 4 points a side, then the horn porn guys will push for it to be 5, then 6, then 7, and so on. Where does that get us?

What state has this happened in?

No one in Zone 3 is calling for 5/6/7 per side as future rules.....currently it gets us a greater appreciation for living in this zone according to word of mouth by hunters in Zone 3.

[monstermoose78]

Just wait

[tfran123]

Just wait

No logic in your thinking, sorry won't happen.

[pike79]

It will start at 4 points a side, then the horn porn guys will push for it to be 5, then 6, then 7, and so on. Where does that get us?

It will never be good enough for the hunters that have to keep up with the Jones.

[flipper]

For some of us hunting is just great to be in the woods and spending time with friends and family passing on traditions, for others it has become a competition and a way to force their one-sided beliefs on others.

[tfran123]

And perhaps your belief in mowing down the young bucks doesn't jive with mine as I'd like to shoot a mature buck once and awhile. Two sides to the issue, always is. But ultimately the tradition of hunting is hugely important to me as well. You can still have tradition without taking a large proportion of young bucks, pretty ignorant IMO.

[flipper]

yes you are a bit ignorant because somehow you missed my post of how I had not shot a buck in 15 years although I have had numerous chances. You TV show wannabes are ruining the sport.

[22lex]

Just wait

For what, more hunter approval in Zone 3....feel free to let us know what state this has happened in.

Again, I don't claim to cite biology on this. This is about increasing mature buck ratios, and hunter approval. Whether you like it or not in zone 3 I don't care one bit, it's just a little tedious reading about all the complaining from people who don't hunt here but believe their tradition should be shoved down our throats.

[tfran123]

yes you are a bit ignorant because somehow you missed my post of how I had not shot a buck in 15 years although I have had numerous chances. You TV show wannabes are ruining the sport.

I did miss that, sorry. Don't categorize all that want APR as TV wannabes however, I don't fit that mold. APR will not ruin the sport, but obviously you disagree which is fine.

[96trigger]

Quote:

t will start at 4 points a side, then the horn porn guys will push for it to be 5, then 6, then 7, and so on. Where does that get us?

Really? This is your argument? You need to take the tin foil helmet off and come out of the bunker. This will not happen, seriously. Of all the arguments against APR, I find this the weakest and most childish. I can agree to disagree with those that don't want more regulations, but to say nothing will ever be good enough, that's paranoia at its best.

[PurpleFloyd]

Not every 1.5 year old is shot, if that were the case, then there would be no bucks, period, right? What we probably should say is that too many are getting shot.

[96trigger]

If you really feel that way, there is no point in arguing. It appears to me that you are grasping at air, as much as I am sure you feel that I am. If after 34 years of hunting, you struggle to distinguish between a 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer, I can not help you. In zone 3, that is not the case. There are two classes of bucks, forks and baskets, and then everything else. If you can't tell the difference between a fork/basket buck, and one that meets APR, you probably should not hunt in areas where there are APR and I don't mean that to insult you. I bow hunt, gun hunt, and muzzle loader hunt, in my opinion, and I am not alone in that opinion, young bucks are the easiest to get in range. Many anti APR guys on this site have said that a mature doe is the most difficult to kill. And that they are the true trophy's. We can keep talking in circles and cut and pasting all day, but i don't see it going anywhere.

[tritonman]

I'm not understanding some of the thinking of the guys that are against APR. You keep saying that "YOU" have to pass up small bucks so that "WE" can shoot them when they've grown a "Monster Rack". Do you not understand that "WE" also have to pass those same deer up and that "YOU" can shoot those "Monster Racks" too!?!?! Those deer you pass up don't get shot by anyone else and barring some other fatality they will be there for "ALL OF US" to shoot when they mature.