APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[22lex]

hockeybc69, the fish regs just to get larger fish is wrong too. If there are reasons to help a lake the people will except different regs. Yes the times are changing, but don't change the regs to help people get larger fish or deer. Get them on your own and you will have done something. Not everyone wants the larger ones.

The fish regs are in place because of our previous generations of fish hogs (father's/grandfathers/great-grandfathers). They piled the fish up and created the stunted lakes we have now. Those regs are needed, you can't catch fish that aren't there.

APR in zone 3 was a perfect storm. High density deer populations that had previously been intensive for many years. I don't believe it is comparative to northern MN.

[rkhinrichs]

as hunters are worest enemy is eachother. im not worried about PETA or anti- Hunting groups. they will always be around. APR or not who cares.as a educator my biggest concern is for the kids. i would be more than happy to pass up a "big buck" for a kid anyday. or if a dad needs help i have no problem giving advice the best i can. to each their own!

[surewood]

How is hunters discussing their opinions hurting the kids? I think it's important for debate on hunting issues. Sure we argue about what each other would like, but I've also learned alot about important topics. I'm more up to date because of it. I guess because I have different ideas then others I don't see them as enemies.

[96trigger]

Funny you mention kids, many of those kids are WAY more into "horn porn" than many of us. TV, hunting video games (deer hunter, big game hunter), special seasons, instant gratification...etc... what do you think the majority of them are going to want after shooting a few deer and some small bucks? Just something to think about while all of you talk about how its all about the kids. Love or hate APR, the future generations will change the way we hunt, for good or bad. One thing for sure, it will change.

I have seen first hand (high school) kids that shoot small bucks get teased and ridiculed (it's friendly ridicule, but there is always a hint of sincerity to it). I always put a stop to it, and let the kid getting teased know that it is just fine if they are happy with it and its legal, they should not care what anybody else thinks.

[slimngrizzly]

Its really not even a choice anymore... most kids simply dont know any other way. Video games, internet, TV programs, its all about big bucks. Hunting as a population managment tool, or for meat, is becoming the byproduct of the sport of hunting for trophy antlers. Love it or hate it, thats just what its turned into.

I, personally, am in favor of almost anything that promotes more mature bucks.... but I know that it wont come without a price. It scares me a little bit what that might be....???

The bottom line is 20 years from now if there are WAY MORE big bucks running around, I know good and well that we'll all still find something to complain about! And the forums will live on.....

[Big Dave2]

Funny you mention kids, many of those kids are WAY more into "horn porn" than many of us. TV, hunting video games (deer hunter, big game hunter), special seasons, instant gratification...etc... what do you think the majority of them are going to want after shooting a few deer and some small bucks? Just something to think about while all of you talk about how its all about the kids. Love or hate APR, the future generations will change the way we hunt, for good or bad. One thing for sure, it will change.

Of course it will change. The next generation will be even more selfish and into instant gratification than this one is.

[Boar]

I dont watch that junk, or let my daughter watch it either. I raise my daughter in hunting to enjoy it for what it supposed to be an shooting a deer is secondary. When having the opportunity I tell her to let the yealing go an shot adult deer. I also dont give her an age of the deer to shoot, she know how bigs yearlings are an we look for deer bigger than that. antlers mean nothing nothing to us. as she matures she will have the ability to decide if she wants good table fare or hunt hard for decent buck. And thats how we hunt an hope were not forced to change.

[surewood]

So now we're selfish cause we don't care for a massacre of young bucks every year? I never have and never will ask for instant gratification from deer hunting. My opinion is 1.5 year old deer probably being about 80% of our harvest isn't a quality deer herd. Others might believe it is. That's their opinion and they're the majority for now. I believe that trend is changing and it doesn't make anyone selfish.

[96trigger]

Surewood, you can't take some people's comments personal, or very seriously. BD2 likes to rock the boat and get people riled up if they don't agree with his ideals. If only there was a "hide" button.

[22lex]

about 80% of our harvest isn't a quality deer herd.

And that was our perfect storm. A high percentage of fork horns made up the slaughter down here (and I don't mean one per person). During the whack 'em and stack 'em years when we in 343/347/etc....you could shoot multiple deer up to 3/4/5 in zones, and cross tagging filled buck tags with 90 lb deer with forks which led to an imbalanced doe to buck ratio. I think APR has been a good program down here that could possibly be implemented with success in high deer density zones. It just takes a hunting populations buy in, which doesn't appear to be the case for the northern zones.

I have seen the hunting change in the areas I hunt; less deer drives/more stand hunters.

[surewood]

I really don't take it personal. I've grown up around the brown down mentality. Times are changing though.

[walleye29us]

I have seen quite a few kids shoot spikes and forks including myself and was VERY happy and PROUD of what we harvested...That should not be taken away...

[surewood]

I got curious and emailed the dnr. They mentioned they're getting more positive feedback this year on apr.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I have seen quite a few kids shoot spikes and forks including myself and was VERY happy and PROUD of what we harvested...That should not be taken away...

Kids can shoot whatever they want.

[walleye29us]

I didnt realize kids could shoot anything....My bad!!!

[InTheNorthwoods]

Of course it will change. The next generation will be even more selfish and into instant gratification than this one is.

Just so we're clear, are you saying it is more selfish to want to see an improved/more healthy deer herd for everyone to enjoy than it is to want to be able to shoot whatever someone wants (and to be able to shoot as many as other individuals will allow you to put their tag on)?

And, it is instant gratification to support a system which inherently requires someone to wait longer until they can pull the trigger and that inherently requires hunter restraint?

I don't see how that is sound logic. I think that those people who want to be able to shoot "whatever THEY want" seems - AT A MINIMUM - just as selfish as anyone supporting APR's or other controls on the harvest.

It is fine to not like APR's, but to call the supporters "selfish" or characterize them as desiring "instant gratification" while characterizing those who oppose such restrictions as somehow

"not needing gratification" or "unselfish" is flat out wrong. The fact is, those opposing change are doing so because they want to continue to be able to shoot whatever the heck makes them happy, and to be able to do so whenever they please - to me that sounds like someone who could easily be characterized as being "selfish" and into "instant gratification" - which to an extent, is perfectly normal and fine.

The reality is, BOTH sides have some skin in the argument (i.e. they want something that fits their ideology. But it is tiring to see people pound their chests about how "unselfish" they are because they don't want any change - in the end, it is just about what they want, when they want it, and how they want it.

My point is, stand by your position, point out the biological issues - fun - tradition - etc., but do so without acting like your position is somehow less selfish or less about instant gratification than those who'd like to see some changes.

[TruthWalleyes]

My opinion is 1.5 year old deer probably being about 80% of our harvest

Don't, and Haven't ever seen where hunters register their deer with either AGE or SIZE OF ANTLERS to support any kind of statistic regarding SIZE or AGE of deer harvested.

Here's your options:

Doe

Fawn Buck

Buck

I'd LOVE to see some stats to back up ANTLER SIZE or deer AGE in ANY OF THE RECENT YEARS...Does this info exist...Or Is, and Has, this argument been purely anecdotal the past few years....

SHOW ME THE PROOF

[TruthWalleyes]

Hard to show improvement without first developing a unit of measure.

Since people want horns...Show me the Horn Harvest DATA

[surewood]

Go sit at a gas station on sundays. Ask people what they shot or listen to people talk about what people shot. Look in people's yards on your travels. Pretty sure that can save the dnr some money. I don't need a survey that can be flawed when the evidence is piled up in the back of trucks every year.

[TruthWalleyes]

"I'm from Missouri, You'll have to show me."

Laws like APR need to be implemented with DATA, not PASSION and anecdotal evidence.

[hockeybc69]

They enacted it in zone 3 somehow....

[surewood]

I honestly felt that way before also. I don't think apr is perfect by any means. I don't care for the idea of more regs, but eventually I had to take a side. I realize it's my agenda and this is the closest plan to fitting it. I want young deer to live longer. I believe it will lead to a better quality herd and deer hunt. That's my opinion. I'm one individual, but as a group we're growing. Some day it may come to a vote and we'll all have our chance to be for or against.

[TruthWalleyes]

But you will never know if you've achieved the results your looking for...

I let big fish swim, and small deer walk, but i will not make you do it just because i want to catch that big fish some day or shoot that big deer someday.

Trophy is in the eye of the beholder.

I would accept this as law much better if there was data to support the change made a difference. I've hunted zone 3 last 5 yrs. I also hunt lottery areas each year. Little deer walk.. Yet, i am still against the LAW.

[surewood]

Well after three years of apr I'd think I'd know the results. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think many people have to be kicked in the rear before they make a change. I think that after people see a positive change we won't need apr cause now they know what can be achieved by it instead of saying if I don't shoot it someone else will. Only way to know is to try it.

[22lex]

The data from the last three years besides hunters general opinions is not there and it will never be there. General opinions and surveys from actual SEMN hunters will be the only data collected unless the CWD inspectors have been keeping a tally on horns, which I highly doubt.

I hope it stays down here for good. Many people I know that hunt have been happy to eat buck tags and shoot does the last couple of years for a more quality overall hunt. No complaining, no one quitting, plenty of kids going with parents, and plenty of meat for the freezer.

[TruthWalleyes]

At what point will the pro APR guys be happy?

Will the anecdotal passion be good enough after current APR regs are in place? Will we need to go further and require more points, or other criteria to satify the pro APR group?

As said, I let them walk...But i measure my own happiness.

Those that support yet after 3 years...

Is the improvement you see "Percieved" or what measure are you using to quantify that there is success in the APR program?

[surewood]

Current apr regs would be fine. We're not looking for 180" deer everywhere. We want young deer to live another year or two not be slaughtered the first year of their life.

[TruthWalleyes]

Some years back I shot a 2.5 year old 7 that was 146, 2.5 8 that was 154. My deer last year was 219lbs. No clue of it's age. Taxidermist just said it was old. This year I figured my deer was 3.5 years and it weighed 190lbs. My 2010 buck I didn't weigh as it was in the 60's that day so we cut it up asap, but based on my other deer it had to be pushing 200lbs. It's my avatar pic. We hang off our scale to check accuracy and it's right on. Maybe I have poor judgment of age.

So what's wrong with the current regs? Your doing fine it seems?

I question you only to help understand what is driving your motivation given what appears to be success in past years.

[22lex]

Surveys will be the only data available, perception will be moot in this discussion as there is no valid data besides hunter approval or disgust in zone 3. It's not up to me, it's up to the collective on what they have experienced the last three years. In my circle of hunting friends who include a couple that were anti APR at one point, are now supportive of it.

Hunter surveys will be the only data collected to support/or boot APR.

[surewood]

My motivation isn't about my success. It's about the success of young deer living more then a year. It's about the quality of deer hunting we could offer the people living here not just me. We have a ton of potential in MN to offer it's residents quality deer statewide. I know "quality" is different to different people. My idea of quality is young deer surviving and maintaining a healthy herd. Hopefully those two go hand in hand.