Thoughts On 220's

[Saw557]

So I offer up a solution of closing grouse season Dec 1 and opening trapping the same day and keeping the trapping laws the same as they are now and there is no discussion just more bickering about who is right or wrong thats not how this is going to be solved. I am not looking at this just from a trappers point of view I also run a couple of expensive mutts 30 plus days a year by the time December comes around the dogs and I both have had enough the antis are just loving this and looking for more its time to quit the [PoorWordUsage] and start talking about a solution it seems the guys against the trapping are a whole lot less open to a compromise

[Saw557]

We're only allowed 5 cats, 5 marten with 2 replaced by fisher, and 4 otter for a total of 14 animals. I'm still trying to figure out why any professional trapper needs to set two hundred 220's for weeks on end to catch 14 animals.

If you don't mind my asking other than otter what are you trapping with 220's in the water that you have to move the traps to dry land after freeze-up Jonny? They're too big for rats and mink and too small for beaver. [/quote

And you are allowed 5 birds a day 10 in possession so what are you doing in the woods in December....I just couldn't pass it up

[Ybone]

You can hunt grouse even though you shot your limit earlier as long as you eat some. So that should answer your question as to why they can legally hunt in December just like you can fish walleyes in December even though you may have caught a limit in June. Once consumed they no longer count toward your possession limit. I also wondered why set hundreds of traps for 14 animals and by the time the fisher/martin/bobcat season is open you should have your otter.

[swampman]

As far as the coon thing goes, I watched a seminar put on by a guy at the trappers convention a year or two ago who strictly used dog proof traps. He is a longliner and catches high numbers of coon with dogproofs, so that's proof to me that it works. And probably makes more sense anyway in pheasant country. Don't remember his name..

Probably Jim blakely

[Random guy]

Quote:

If you don't mind my asking other than otter what are you trapping with 220's in the water that you have to move the traps to dry land after freeze-up Jonny? They're too big for rats and mink and too small for beaver.

I use 220s for rats and 220s with bottom pan triggers for mink/otter on cross over runs. I pursue larger bog rats that are hard pressed to fit into a 110. With a old trigger modification trick I also tend to not catch as many kits or should a say the next years matures. It actually works great as a management tool. I have used 110s with very poor results, misses or poorly gripped adults and the kit catch goes way up. Plus the areas I have rats I have Otter running around as they are eating the rats. With 110 sets those are misses and with 220s they are catches. In today’s markets the more efficient and diverse your sets can be you are the better you will do.

If my rat catches drop below 30 a day I move my lines. Hope that can help put in perspective the harvest levels of the professional. It is not a hobby or something to pass time on the weekends. It is 70 hour a week job that pays my bills. And much of it is on request from land owners and other organizations that had a fit when I stopped trapping their area or move on. I actually get calls from development associations asking me to come in and trap the rats out of the boat canals and water front properties. Of course those are denied due to pets and safety.

For me this has very little to do with on land bait sets but water sets or water’s edge sets miles up rivers and bog flowages. That is where this is going to hit me.

[Gordie]

You really improve your success rate running more traps and if your doing it for a living the faster you fill your taggs the sooner your on to other things that make you money.

14 animals is not a easy task sound simple just throw a few traps out but it really doest work that way.

220 work great for rats and mink if you mod the triggers and its a easy set for them and time is the essence when your checking and reseting and massive trap line.

[Gordie]

Sorry I didnt see your post JP

[Random guy]

Sorry I didnt see your post JP

Ya, how dare you!

I also want to add for Otter I and my partner (79 year old grandfather)had both pan bait sets just for Otter and on land Otter slide sets with 220s. Every single Otter came from a on land 220. Was not for the 220 that would have been Decembers fuel bill for his house swimming away.

[Grayfox]

Just curious how many other states are still allowing the 220 to be set on dry land with no restrictions?

I just checked Michigan's trapping rules and they only allow 160's on dry land, without bait, to be set in trails with the top of trap no higher than 8" above the ground. And any 160's or 220's must be 4' off the ground or be in an enclosure with no greater than a 6" opening and recessed a minimum of 6" from the front of the enclosure.

I've only been trapping a few years here in Wisconsin but since I started our 220's have always been required to be elevated 5 feet off the ground or be recessed in an enclosure with a 50 sq in hole, with the trap recessed 7 inches. Can't use dryland snares here either. Snares must be at least 1/2 submerged in water. We can only use cable restraints with relaxing washers and cable stops and only from Dec.1st to Feb.15 and for fox and coyote only.

Any trappers from other states care to weigh in on their states position on using the 220 in dryland applications?

Rob

[Saw557]

You can hunt grouse even though you shot your limit earlier as long as you eat some. So that should answer your question as to why they can legally hunt in December just like you can fish walleyes in December even though you may have caught a limit in June. Once consumed they no longer count toward your possession limit. I also wondered why set hundreds of traps for 14 animals and by the time the fisher/martin/bobcat season is open you should have your otter.

Did you see the part me runni g my dogs 30 days during bird season I know how it works and I know the possession limit is widely over looked. If you have ever trapped you would know you don't put out 14 traps and catch 14 animals you woe also realize that requiring water sets to. E completely submerged is not practical. What it boils down to is you have a bunch of people that do t really know what they are talking about jumping on the media and antis circus wagon with a hidden agenda

[FCspringer]

We're only allowed 5 cats, 5 marten with 2 replaced by fisher, and 4 otter for a total of 14 animals. I'm still trying to figure out why any professional trapper needs to set two hundred 220's for weeks on end to catch 14 animals.

If you don't mind my asking other than otter what are you trapping with 220's in the water that you have to move the traps to dry land after freeze-up Jonny? They're too big for rats and mink and too small for beaver.

Many of us used them solely on coon. Never in water, 330's for beaver in water. I just don't get this whole deal. Ask how many dogs are killed by cars again? Come on. I don't know any one that traps on public land with 220's. A trapper wishes to avoid the hunter at all costs. How many traps one sets is like wondering why someone would rather work 40 hrs instead of 5.

[Random guy]

A trapper wishes to avoid the hunter at all costs.

VERY TRUE! Hunters, hikers and many outdoor enthusiasts unknowingly leave scent marks behind trappers are very conscious of. We as trappers are not donned in rubber boots, rubber gloves and carry an arsenal of cover scents just because we like to look like Gumby or smell like a skunk, we have good reason for it. Not to mention dogs have a tendency to urinate...on everything.. Any trapper worth his or her salt sees a hunter or figures the area is heavily hunted should realize they are wasting his/her time and turn around for better areas.

[mallardnwalleye]

Do us a favor and call all 6 dog owners who died this year due to traps.

I think some of these the people killed the dogs to theoretically put them out of their misery. When they really didn't have to. The others how far away were they and how long were the dogs unattended? How big were the dogs? Did these people just give up ?It is a little emotionally brutal to see a dog get in one and try to release it but I still am wondering why there weren't more dogs dying defore. A 220 is a strong trap and a small or med dog needs to get out of it fairly quickly but I am scratching my head as 220's weren't that huge threat to dogs back when I trapped and I have seen labs get hit by them but they usually slide right off. Are the traps bigger than back in the 80's are fur prices up this year so everybody and there brother is back out trapping? It all doesn't add up.

[9339za]

That's interesting. The bog rats I catch in beaver traps are even smaller than lake rats and a lot smaller than river rats. I still can't figure out why someone would use bulky, heavier, harder to set, and more expensive traps to catch rats.

I don't find otter that hard to catch under water or under ice. If it's pinched enough I'll use a 220 but if it's wider I'll use the 330.

[Random guy]

One good reason is simply overhead. Instead of having 200 size 110 for rats and another 100 size 220 for otter, fisher martin, bobcat I only have to own one size that is very universal and does it all. Also as I stated before my rat traps often catch me otter, beaver and other water based furbearers where the 110 would not.

Same reason most bird hunter use a .12 gauge verses a .410. Yes the .410 is lighter, easier to handle and will do the job, but the .12 gauge is much more efficient and has a wider range of uses. This includes smaller doves and grouse up to the B-52 sized to goose. Now only one gun is needed verses a .410 for grouse, .12 gauge for pheasant and a .10 gauge for waterfowl. One mid range tool that covers it all just makes sense.

[FCspringer]

As to the one who said call the 6 now famous owners. I would like to. I would like the actual "Facts" before I go after someones livelihood. Can you in fact prove these stories are all true? No most likely not.

About the 80's, Nothing has changed but the stories since the 80's. It's always been anti's of some sort against trapping in general. Weather it be upset dog owners or peta, and so on. That will never change. If use is restricted on public land, thats one thing. But if you let your dog out to run the world, it's your fault, if your trespassing it's your fault, if you fail to ask a land owner if there is a trapper out there when you ask to hunt, it's your fault. Not the trap or the trappers fault. The real fact is it is so rare, you are far better off to worry about a dog getting hit by a car. In 35 years running dogs all over, I have never had one in a trap. But have had a couple killed by cars.

[FCspringer]

Another interesting thing is the fact of where the people these stories originate from, live. Are just about all of them urban dwellers that live in town, or a city, the "Metro" ?. Could it be that a rural way of life is somewhat different then there expectations? Sure,Are some overly "Nuts" about it?, Sure. This topic is no different in the debate over you and I loosing the right to own an automatic weapon. People are shot robbed and so on each year. Yet the sportsman fights for his rights. I think the laws in this state have a thick enough dam book allready. People just need to find better things to do with their time, then to legislate stupidity. And stop trying to take any more rights, of any more sportsman, period.

[Ray1]

Well said FCspringer. You hit it right on the head with your statements.

[Trapper J]

This bill introduced by sen.WIGER and rep.WARD is just the beginning to end trapping.The conibear trap would be rendered pretty much useless and than trapping interest would be less than it already is.Jump ahead to no trapping in this state.We would be like the state of Wash.where predators are out of control and killing a lot more dogs than conibears do.Than we would have to hire a licensed trapper to protect our pets from being on the coyotes menu,just like Wash.residents.How about Mass.?Trapping is illegal there also.Beaver and muskrat damage to private property is out of control and landowners there cant do anything about it because of all the gov't redtape and hoops they have to jump through to get a permit.Thats where were heading if this goes through.

[Ray1]

And think of all the tax dollars we will have to pay to farmers,ranchers and pet owners because of wolves and coyotes killing all these animals. I for one think that we are in enough debt and dont need any more. Why should we have to pay for our government to hire a trapper to come in and clear out the beavers that are blocking culverts, coyotes killing dogs,cats, and livestock, racoons and mink killing chickens, ducks, pheasants, partridge and everything else. Come on you antis think about this. Lets be realistic. We need trapping to handle the population of the varmints.

[Saw557]

This will fire them up again but I've been wanting to say it for some time. A large part of the problem is people in the metro area that have money and cabins "up north" and come up hear and think it is their own little playground. The problem is I live and work here and its not a playground its my back yard. I also have two pointing dogs I hunt with and while I am aware of the risk I dont worry about it.This whole issue is blown so far out of proportion its based on a lot of fear and misunderstanding how many people actually encounter a trap in the woods there is a lot of "my neighbor" or "a guy I heard about" the Metro media has repalyed the same stories over and over again. Maybe the solution for these people is to limit trapping south of 694 where they spend the majority of their time....flame on

Another interesting thing is the fact of where the people

these stories originate from, live. Are just about all of them urban dwellers that live in town, or a city, the "Metro" ?. Could it be that a rural way of life is somewhat different then there expectations? Sure,Are some overly "Nuts" about it?, Sure. This topic is no different in the debate over you and I loosing the right to own an automatic weapon. People are shot robbed and so on each year. Yet the sportsman fights for his rights. I think the laws in this state have a thick enough dam book allready. People just need to find better things to do with their time, then to legislate stupidity. And stop trying to take any more rights, of any more sportsman, period.

[K_Josh87]

I myself do not trap, I do hunt ducks and some pheasants, sometimes behind a dog, and sometimes not... If we know there are traps around, we keep the dogs out... IMO there are bigger fish to fry than to [PoorWordUsage] away our lawmakers time with this stuff... Trapping is very much part of the outdoors, I have never lived in the city, and have always been in the middle of south central MN, and have lived next to some very prime trapping grounds... never have once lost a pooch to a trap, and probably never will.... It comes down to having some common sense and self responsibility, on both dog owners and trappers parts.... We've typically known when someone is trapping in the area... and we keep the dogs out of there... If I lost a dog to a trap, IMO The dog shouldn't have had his head stuck in there in the first place... They have the right to share the land just as I do.

Interesting side note... I believe it was last night on the news I seen a run on "over populated" yotes in the cities harassing and killing dogs and cats....

Maybe we should ban yotes in the metro area... see how that one pans out!

Seriously, i think banning the 220 is like wiping before you [PoorWordUsage], it just don't make sense...

Good Luck guys, and I hope you are able to keep on doing what you guys do best, I have had some opportunities to shadow some trapping, and possibly after enough of that, sometime in the future I may give it a try! Its a very interesting realm of critter gettin that takes a lot of "smarts" to do...

Also, in my experience, EVERY trapper I have ever known goes through great lengths to locate that spot that no one else should be in, and does EVERYTHING possible to avoid humans and mutts... A ton of work is ruined very quickly by bird/deer/duck/shed hunter walking by leaving a scent trail... my

[jparrucci]

Calling us antis is not going to help your cause. I never understood why the government pays for wolf trappers, when there are plenty of people willing to pay them to trap. We are trying to cone up with a working solution to a problem that works for both sides. Continuing as is isn't acceptable to too many. You can either choose to be part of the solution, or lose even more trapping options. None of us here have posted that we want to see trapping changed over water or on private lands. This is strictly related to dry set conibears on public land during bird hunting.

[Ray1]

Another good post Josh.

[jparrucci]

Josh, for those who know where traps are it is easy to avoid. Just because the trappers you know use some common sense, doesn't mean that all do. I have personally seen traps in horrible places on public land I'm the peak of both pheasant and grouse seasons.

[Trapper J]

jp ,you seem to have a negative "what if" scenario towards a post thats positive towards trapping.If I had that towards all the bone-headed moves Ive seen out fishing and hunting ,I'd never go anywhere or do anything again.Theres risks in everything we do in life.Worrying about a trap around every corner should be the least of your problems.

[Trashguy]

You know one thing that really comes out when emotions run high, is the truth how some people really feel/think. And what I have observed is the contempt from some of the people that trap and live up north of the so called "612" area code. The latest example is Saw557's post. In an earlier post of his he said "I paged through the petiton and noticed the vast majority of people that signed it are from the metro area" If that is true how and the heck are you helping your cause with your last post? I mean I would like to know the ratio of members on this site that are north or south of that "area code 612" line. There have been many things said on this thread and the other, but forget about the the dog/trap issue, its the attitude of some of the people that live north of me that really &*^%$ off. What gives you the right to belittle we that don't just happen to live down the street from you. And I really wish I could send some of those *&^$% comments to all your local business that depend on we "612" people coming up to make it. Wonder what they would think about their trapper neighbors then.

[sheepheadslayer]

Your post Trashguy is the battle we are fighting right now. Getting thrown in a group because what you do or where your from. Do I try and set a 220 as careful as possible? Sure do. Do all trappers? I would say 99% yes. Do all so called "612er's" that go "up north" have a clue about the outdoors?I would say the same most do. Bad apple spoils the whole bunch theory. Again it comes to education!!!! You want solutions to this then we need education. Every parking lot has a handout with cautions on the ground they are entering. Add a section to the Hunter Safety course that has trap awareness and how to set and release different traps. (good for any kid to know). I have been around trapping my whole life. Some kids wouldnt have a clue what to do and if never taught may never if thy come across a situation. Get to them early. If you buy a trapping liscense you take a class every 5 years sponsererd by the MTA with trapping etiquet etc. These are just ideas. Just know that over reaction from uneducated people is the reason we fight such stupid regulations.

[JBar]

Do "612" people depend on the businesses "up north" to make it up here? Odd twist to this whole post imo this part of the conversation is irrelivant. Mabey the idea of you need US needs to go and we can get on task.

[K_Josh87]

Welp, There is give and there is take... I once again don't really side either way because my life does not revolve around hunting upland birds, or trapping...

Maybe a trapping class is a decent Idea... or more involved one than is required now (I know there is a class required in order to get a trapping lic, but I have not taken it so do not know how detailed it is) Maybe every 5 years isn't a bad idea either, I do not know... ITS AN IDEA

Maybe classes for bird hunters, and / or there dogs are a good idea too... If you can train a dog to not take a dump on the floor, to kennel up, to find and retrieve birds, and to not cross property lines, or leave the rug in the front entry, I am sure with a little work one could teach them not to stick there nose in a trap!

AS far as the difference in the "metro" people and non metro people, I'm not offended in the fact that, if you stuck me in down town urbansville... I wouldn't have a lick of sense there either... I'll first point the finger at myself. I do not fit in in that crowd naturally. Doesn't mean I don't know where to go and not to go, and what to do and not to do... just means its not natural to me, and the "unspoken" knowledge and street smarts I may not have.

Thus being said, Its the same when people go from the metro to rural areas, You are passionate and glad to be in the out doors, and enjoy the living heck out of it, mostly for the same reasons we that do not live in the metro do.... For example, Down here is cornfield counties, where hog and cattle farms are numerous... If my dog leaves the property, I am going to do everything in my power to teach it not to... its not an acceptable, or excusable behavior. And, If my dog is caught on another farm site, i am not going to put that person to the grills for doing what they have to do to protect there property... they do not know if my dog has been on another farm chewing on another animals carcass... or if it simply came from another farm, needless to say, there is a chance it could be carrying a disease... and that dog is worth a heck of a lot less than a barn full of hogs, or a lot full of cattle...

That being said, its a "culture" clash, same with the trapping/bird hunting issue... Its a culture clash, and My best guess is, there are most commonly issues with lack or knowledge and or experience... If you are having issues with running into traps on public ground this tells me a few things...

Good chance if you and your dogs are finding traps... the trapper is uneducated or un experienced... It is very easy for all of us to get excited about a new hobby, and get out there and giver the beans!... But, as with most of us with new hobbies, we do not always get it right on the first time... Is there a way to help these "first time jitters"??? Maybe a longer apprentice time in order to get your trapping rights? My personal experience with trapping is it is a lot like a trade, such as carpentry, which is best learned or passed on from one to the next...

This all being said, Fair is Fair in my mind... look for some ways to expand education on the trapping side of things. And Also make some sort of education required to go afield with a dog. If a trapper has to do something, so does the bird dog owner... Maybe an obedience certificate of some sort for the pooch to be allowed afield??? I don't see any reason not to have to be able to prove your dog is capable of following orders such as come and heel, and having some education on traps... There is nothing more obnoxious for me then to sit in a duck boat and listen to someone yell at a stupid dog the whole morning, so I wouldn't mind it for duck hunting as well...

Just another