Grouse hunting dogs?

[Redlantern]

Looking for some opinions on which breed might be the best match for me. I think I'd like a pointing dog of some sort but really don't know squat about bird dogs. When I was into sled dogs, I had some ESP crosses that were really too hyper for my liking. I'd like to find a dog that I can hunt with, keep outside with a heated shelter while I'm at work and have inside while I'm home. Not much into aggresive dogs or lots of barking. Also, since I'm not used to having dogs in the house, one that doesn't shed so much. Is this realistic? Appreciate any suggestions and opinions.

Sorry if this topic has been covered before, I tried to use the search function but I'm just not having much luck with that.

[hartner62]

Sounds like a Griff (WPG) to me.

[Redlantern]

What is a Griff (WPG)?

[herm]

I was in a similar spot 4 years ago when friends addicted me to pheasant hunting. I got a pointing lab. She does what you seek, except the shedding thing. And she is a GREAT family dog. My good friend who knows a lot about grouse, woodcock and pheasant hunting has a Visla. She is awesome, too. (The two dogs work very well together.)

When I did my research, the best advice for me were these points:

1. Do more research about the breeders than the breed.

2. Remember, the dog will hunt only a few months a year. But it will be part of the family all year long.

3. Once you make your choice, your dog will be as good as the time/training you put into her.

Good luck!

[hartner62]

Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I was looking for the same things as you and I'm glad that a friend of mine turned me on to them.

[Redlantern]

Thanks for the tip. When I googled Griff, I came up with some mysterious mythical creature. Now it makes more sense. I thought you were pulling my leg at first.

[gspman]

I'd start looking at English Setters, then Pointers, then the popular continental pointing breeds (Brit, GSP, etc)

One disadvantage with long haired breeds is the shedding is more noticeable. The coat is advantageous for colder weather though. A Pointer or GSP would have less noticeable shedding (looks like eye lashes all over the place). The setter out of proper breeding is the quintissential grouse dog.

[CrewJones]

we purchased a female labradoodle from brainerd 3 years ago and she would be easy to train. We house broke her in the first 2 days and taught her a bunch of tricks the first six months, then we stopped. She hunts everything in our yard, she smells where squirrels have walked hours and and trails them . She does not shed at all (her breed is L2B Labradoodle) and that insured no shedding as I am very allergic to dogs.

Downside... she has hair like us and to get a nice grooming every couple months costs me 80 bucks. I am a huge grouse hunter but never wanted to take her, you would either have to have an ultra short hair cut on her for hunting season or you would have to baby oil her whole body, because every burr in the woods works it way in her fur and takes you a while to get out. we live on a large wooded lot and fall is just a nightmare for us because she ends up chasing animails into the woods and comes back with 20 min of burrs to get out. We love her and I know she would make a great hunting dog because she is very smart. and learns fast. dog was a bit pricy around 800 bucks but like i said im very allergic and I have no problems with my lucy.

she is a bit crazy in the boat so we put a jacket on her so other boaters notice

[Hammertime]

german shorthair pointer. Buy one bred to work closer. The liver coated gsps have a smoother coat as upposed to white or ticked. My last was mostly white, terrible shedder, coarse hair. My pup is liver, no shedding at all. i bought her from willow creek kennels in little falls. There is a breeder in hibbing that grouse hunts with his gsps and can train them for that as well. pay for good bloodlines though. my pup was 1000 bucks and i also put her through 2 months of traning. grouse takes a good dog because they are so jumpy but my pup is learning. she has cost me a couple but that is part of the learning experience.

[setterguy]

I think it would good to know exactly which of your priorities are the most important. If pointing grouse is the most important trait you are looking for look at the results of the last 10 years worth of grouse trials and then decide if you want a dog that doesn't shed, or one that finds grouse. They aren't always mutually exclusive but history says otherwise.

I think its interesting that the only advice you recieved where someone didn't tell you about the breed they personally own suggested an english setter....that tells me something.

If someone asked what breed to hunt ducks, I'd tell them a Chesapeake. If someone wanted a dog to hunt pheasants only I'd say a springer. When someone asks about grouse, in my mind there are two choices, english setter or english pointer.

[Setterman]

I obviously am partial to Setters. Second would be an English Pointer. As far as shedding goes, buy a Dyson Vacuum and a furminator and clip them short.The Setter hair will roll off your clothes easier than the pointer hair, it sticks in the clothes and is harder to get out.

If it was me I would contact some local Setter breeders that have dogs with a on and off switch. I have three grouse finding machines that rip the woods apart and when they come home are they are quiet as can be in the house or kennel.

Locally you you have access to some of the best grouse dogs in the country!

[Redlantern]

Talking with a coworker about this and he asked if I really wanted a pointing breed versus a flushing breed. What is the difference? Can a pointing dog be trained to be a flushing dog and vice versa?

Setterguy, for me, the most important trait is going to be that it is non aggressive. After that, I want a dog for grouse hunting. I don't duck or pheasant hunt, I grouse hunt. Are English Setters high strung? The English shorthair Pointers crosses I had were extremely hyper. Good for a sled dog that runs in a sprint race but it really drove me nuts. I like a dog that can be on when working and can mellow out when it's done working. I'd be interested in learning more about the English Setters. I see you're in Forest Lake. Any chance of taking a look at your dogs sometime and see what they're about? I know every dog is going to have it's own personality but it might give me more of an idea if they are the right dog for me.

[Redlantern]

Setterman, thanks for the info, I was typing while you replied. I'm not afraid of dog hair, I had twelve sled dogs so I'm used to it. But since this dog will be spending time in my home, I thought I'd pose the question.

Might just be one of those things I'll have to deal with. I'm not really an overly tidy person so I can live with some hair, heck, my daughter sheds more than anyone I know. Don't know why she isn't bald yet.

Do English Setters bark a lot?

[Setterman]

Erik each dog has its own personality. Some bark a ton some do not. You increase you odds of having a non barking calm dog by buying from a litter of calm bred setters that have a on off switch. I also cannot stand a dog that will not calm down in the house or the kennel. It sometimes is hard to get a good feel for how dogs are if you see them once. I live in Chisago and would be willing to show you my two males and I have a female puppy. I sent you a private message with my phone #.

~Cory

[setterguy]

I think you need to hunt with a few different dogs to see what you like first.

And to answer your question, no flushing breeds cannot be taught to point, and while some pointers may flush, its not the way you will want it.

Figure out what you like, pointing vs. flushing, then decide on a breed, then research the heck out of breeders, tell them what you want and they will be able to tell you which litter might be the best. My current dog I waited 2 years for becuase I had pretty specific ideas on what I wanted in my next bird dog. I would ask to tag along with as many guys as you can in the next couple years. Go to some grouse trials. Gain as much info as you can. Let us know if you need anything else.

[Rick]

You can train a flusher to point but you really don't want to.

Grouse are a funny bird....more often than not they aren't sitting still for a pointer unless they feel safe where they're located. You will need a very honest pointer if you have one that ranges out there.

A close hunting dog is really what you are looking for. Flushers and well trained pointers excel at that

However, where a flusher really shines is going after pheasants. Pointers really shine on quail, partridge and early season where pheasant tend to hold and aren't in groups. They really are pretty good on grouse as well.

Last point is be sure you are looking at field bred dogs.

[Setterman]

I have hunted in the woods with both close ranging (15 - 30 yards) and (50 to 300 yard) range dogs. They all performed well, but as a whole the dogs that range find more birds. This year has been very noticeable, with the count way down. With the grouse cycle probably bottoming out this year or next. I think you are going to have to have a dog that ranges and is honest on his birds.

[setterguy]

No offense Rick, but most people that want a pointer that stays close has never worked with a great one. I'm pretty confident that I can find all the birds within 20 yards of me, or most of them anyway. I want a dog that ranges out 60-70 yards to my right and left and finds, and holds birds that I would have never found on my own.

I do agree that it does take an exceptional nose and disposition to do this, but this is why I push the setters and pointers so much for grouse hunting. They are the only breeds that were originally bred to be pointers and take the scent from the air which gives them a large advantage when scenting birds, which will result in a greater disance between dog and bird, and like you said make that bird feel more safe that it will still have time to fly since the dog is so far away.

I would say 90% of dogs cannot be trusted completley on grouse. But when you finally see on that can, and does it right, it will change the way you hunt forever.

[Redlantern]

Rick by field bred dogs, do you mean dogs that actually work versus show dogs? If so, I'm with you on that. I ran sled dogs and I really think that the showring screwed up the Siberian Husky to the point that hardly anyone runs them anymore. Very few dogs with the working abilities bred into them. All the showring wants are dogs with pointy ears and cute markings. They don't care if the dog can pull and has tough feet.

Setterguy, what do you mean by "trusted completely"? I'm not familiar with a lot of the bird dog terminology.

Setterman, what do you mean by "honest on his birds"?

Thanks in advance for the info.

[gspman]

Field bred dogs generally are not show dogs. A few breeds have dual quality dogs though.

An honest dog is one that will point a bird and stay pointed and not try any funny stuff. Some dogs if they think they are out of sight of the handler will take the bird out or try to relocate or do something else they shouldn't do. The dog in my avatar is not always honest. She takes great pleasure going out on a limb and occasionally flushing a bird because she thinks I can't see her. She really has a good time doing this until I reminder her of what her job is.

Trusted completely = honest birddog

I am also of the opinion that a pointing dog that ranges out is superior to a close working pointer when it comes to grouse. Grouse don't put up with much and having a dog and human both moving in close proximity at the same time will usually put it in the air. I believe a dog further out will have more success pointing birds.

I was at a hunt test once and I had a woman ask me about grouse and why her Irish Red & White Setter was having a hard time pointing them. I asked her how far her dog gets out and she said 20 yds. I politely told her that her dog needs to be further away from her to have more success.

[Rick]

Close is a relative term and when I say close I mean 30-40 yards.

A dog that works no further than 20 yards is a shoe shiner in my opinion

Too be clear, a field bred springer spaniel should have a great nose and will more often than not tell you they are on a bird well before they get to it.

I hunt pheasants that's why I went out and got a springer. I would not hesitate to put her on grouse. Especially going in a downwind

[Farmboy1]

This question comes up very often and is not an easy thing to answer. You might as well what woman you should marry because you will get the same types of responses.

It is quite obvious you should love the same breed of dog as me

I disagree with whoever said that the breeder is more important than the breed. They are 2 very different but equally important issues. Take your time and research breeds. Hunt with as many dogs as you can, go to a few field trials of training sessions with different people. Find out what each breed standard is and what their normal temperament is.

Breeds range in size. How large of a dog do you want? A 120 lb dog might sound great until it is sitting on your couch.

Almost all dogs will shed. Determine what an acceptable level is for you.

Determine if you want a pointer or flusher. They are mutually exclusive IMHO.

Once you know the breed you want, then start the research into a breeder. Find a reputable breeder who is breeding great quality dogs that do what you want. Some breeders will have trial dogs, some will have show dogs, and some just have dogs. Find out what you want.

When this is narrowed down, visit as many as you can. Look at their facilities, how their dogs are handled, ask as many questions as you can. See the Sire and Dame, and hopefully see how they handle in the field. Check their bloodlines. See all certifications for health clearances (Hips, eyes, etc.) Some breeds have other issues you need to check out that you will find in your research. A good breeder will tell you about any issues the breed has. This could take a while, but you are putting in a 10-15 year commitment to this animal and it deserves the best, and so do you.

I will also say that IMHO a dog is what you make it. They have innate tenancies, but you can mold them into what you want. For example barking is a training item that you can take care of very quickly if you work on it.

Good luck with you decision.

I own a Viszla and have had one in the past also, and doubt I will own a different breed in my life.

[RangerJack]

Rick, I have an English Springer Spaniel as well, and I'd match him up against any pointing dog for grouse hunting. He rarely ever is further than 20 yards away from me, and I can tell very easily when he's on a pheasant or grouse.

To each their own!

[Acemac]

IMO the smaller breeds are more like ninjas in the woods compared to the bigger breeds that are like tanks breaking a new trail.

I have a French Britt (epagneul breton) and she is like a silent killer in the thick woods, and a demon in the open feild. the only draw back is the amount of stuff that sticks to her longer hair.

Also pointing dogs are great for grouse but you have to be willing to break trail to get to a lot of birds a flushing dog will allow you to walk on the trail more if that is your thing.

[TylerS]

I have to agree with Farmboy. He nailed it. Do some research, and figure out what is best for you.

Historically, it's been setters that get the nod as far as grouse dogs. Don't know why, honestly, but if you search "grouse dog" online, you're guaranteed to get a bunch of setter links.

I'm not keen to setters. Personal preference, mostly. Had a buddy with a Gordon that was a POS. Mean, ornery, and ugly. Only a one-dog deal, I know, but that's all it takes sometimes.

When I was looking for my first dog, I narrowed it down quickly by elminating labs. Don't like them. Again, personal preference. If I wanted a big, lumbering bafoon who wants to do nothing else than retrieve all day, fine, a lab would do. But I needed a dog that did more than simply retrieve.

So I went with a German wirehaired pointer. Was more happenstance than anything. I honestly wasn't all that keen on a GWP at first. My uncle had to put two down in the past because of aggression issues.

After talking to a reputable nearby breeder and meeting his dogs, however, I found out that although that CAN be a trait of the breed, it's more how much socialization is done at an early age than anything.

So we picked out our pup, socialized the heck out of him, and now he's one of the friendliest, happiest dogs I've ever met.

AND he can hunt grouse -- and he rocks at it too. As he does pheasants, and sharptails, and ducks and even geese (although he has a tough time getting them in his mouth sometimes).

But while I believe he came from a great line of dogs, I also put in the time. Trained 4-5 times a day from the end of May to August. Now, at 1 1/2 years old, I'm proud to see he's one of the finest hunting dogs I've ever worked over.

Now, what does that say? Get a GWP because of my experience? Possibly. But you'll hear the same stories from guys with vizlas, Brittanies, springers, and even shelter mutts. I'm a firm believer in doing your research into breeders and picking a pup from a PROVEN line, but just because you buy the right dog, doesn't mean it's going to hunt great right out of the gate.

Time, effort and patience are the key.

Oh, and having a GWP doesn't hurt, either

[setterguy]

Tyler - This is why setters and pointers are traditionally considered the "best" grouse dogs.

Winners of The Grand National Grouse Championship

1943 Pointer Male

1944 Hall's Black Rocket, Setter male.

1945 Placements Withheld

1946 Burton's Fleetfoot Ginger, Setter Male.

1947 The Texas Traveler, Pointer Male.

Runner-Up Hall's Black Rocket, Setter Male. 1948 Placements Withheld

1949 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male

Runner-Up Contender Spunky Delight, Pointer male.

1950 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male.

1951 Trebor's Dutchess, Setter female.

1952 Mistress Pretty Bones, Pointer female.

1953 Puckety Village Boy, Pointer male.

1954 Tyson's Skyhills Flash, Pointer male.

Runner-Up Tancanhoosen Hunter, Pointer male.

1955 Retina, Setter female.

1956 Retina, Setter female.

Runner-Up Larray, Pointer male.

1957 Placements Withheld

1958 Vigorous, Pointer male.

1959 Doc's Girl Sis, Pointer female.

1960 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1961 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1962 Elhew Lucy Brown, Pointer female.

1963 Orchard Valley Melody, Setter male.

1964 Placements withheld

1965 Brenda Wahoo, Pointer female.

Runner-Up Sam L's Nabob, Setter male.

1966 Hussy, Setter female.

1967 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.

1968 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.Elhew

Runner-Up Sam L's Sequoia, Setter male.

1969 Ghost Train, Setter male.

1970 Grouse Ridge Will, setter male.

1971 Placements Withheld

1972 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1973 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1974 Elhew Flying Dutchman, Pointer male.

1975 Jetrain, Setter male.

Runner-Up Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1976 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1977 Teaberry, Setter male.

Runner-UpWyola Jupiter, Pointer male.

1978 Ghost's Star, Setter female.

Runner-UpPleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1979 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

Runner-UpKumari Elhew Suzie, Pointer female.

1980 Lou's Astro Accelerator, Pointer, male.

Runner-Up-Police Woman, Pointer female.

1981 Heartbreaker , Setter female.

Runner-Up-Pleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1982 The Sportsman's Briar, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Little John Boy, Pointer male.

1983 Andy's Safari Sami, Setter female.

1984 Stokley's Diablo Jake, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Decathon Man, Setter male.

1985 Penelope, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Tip Top Mollie, Setter female.

1986 Spring Garden Keeper , Setter female.

Runner-Up-North Island Samantha, Setter female.

1987 Honey B, Setter female.

1988 Skyline Patty, Setter female.

1989 Northern Alibi, Setter male.

1990 Grover, Setter male.

1991 Loleta, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Autumn Thunder, Pointer female..

1992 Stillmeadows Jim , Setter male.

Runner-Up-Cracker Jack Train, Setter male

1993 Crystal Light, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Star's Misty Ghost, Setter female

1994 Grouse Ridge Storm, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Jet's Aimee, Setter female

1995 Paucek's Tommyknocker, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

1996 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Kalamity Seekah, Setter female

1997 Body Guard, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

Dr. Tim Pershke, owner and handler.

1998 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

1999 Seneca's Autmn Reign, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Ghost Train Bell, Setter female

2000 Holy Smoke, Pointer male.

Runner-Up-Chip's Super Chunk, Setter male

2001 Beaver Meadow Bette, Pointer female.

2002 Movelle's Gypysy, Pointer female.

2003 Hard Driving Bev, Pointer female.

[Ben_Berg]

Setterguy,

You may have already heard that our good friend Dave TerHaar just won

The Grand National with TerHaar's Elvis. I don't believe you can change what people want to believe. I have seen this debate on other forums.It seems to always manifest into some fellas wanting to thump their chests

about the capabilities of their dogs. Whatever dog you like take it hunting and have fun in your own way. I will only say this. It is a widely

accepted principle that dogs that smell the scent in the air are more successful that dogs that smell ground scent.This applies to Grouse,not Pheasants,these two birds react very differently to pressure.

[TylerS]

It is a widely accepted principle that dogs that smell the scent in the air are more successful that dogs that smell ground scent.This applies to Grouse,not Pheasants,these two birds react very differently to pressure.

Good point! That's why it's good to have a dog that knows how to do both. No point in using air scent if the wind is from their back. Not sure how you "teach" that, but Remy does it on his own. I'm assuming it's a breed trait.

[Steve Foss]

I've learned some interesting things reading through this thread. Thanks for sharing your perspectives, folks.

[gspman]

Finally a good discussion on dogs! And civil too. One thing to note is that most of the popular continental breeds primarily scent from the air nowadays. The pointers & setters don't have a monopoly on air scenting. The stereotype of the continental dogs running around with their nose on the ground is largely untrue these days and is particularly untrue for dogs out of trial lines. Trial dogs can't run like they are supposed to and have their head down. It just won't work. All my dogs have hunted the air first and only went to the ground as a last resort. A good dog will put it's nose where the best scenting is be it a setter, pointer or a continental.

Having stated all that I still think getting a dog that is bred for the grouse woods will increase your odds of getting a good grouse dog. There are plenty of continental breeders that do that but the setter & pointer folks have been doing it longer and I think your best bet is a pointer or setter. I've briefly met a couple of the setter breeders mentioned above and they are top notch folks and have forgotten more about birddogs that most of us will ever learn. If you've never been to a coverdog grouse trial I'd highly recommend going to one. I went to one several years back and saw some phenomenal birddogs. Including a Grand National Grouse Champion runner up. Met some very nice people (including the legendary Jim Tande) who showed me around and were happy to talk to me even though I ran shorthairs. All that and the lunchtime food was awesome!