mn might be allowing scopes for muzzleloader season?

[midwesthunter]

Has anyone heard a recent update on which way the state is leaning on this discussion? I heard that its up for vote again this year and wouldn't mind if it was changed, even if it was for a low power scope.

[Fowlmouth]

It wouldn't bother me one way or another if it was passed to use a scope. I would continue to use open sites.

[trolloni]

Vote to make em legal dont do it for yourself, do it for the deer ,you got one shot and every hunter i know wants to put em down with one shot instead of tracking em for miles after wounding one or spending sleepless nights wondering if you connected or not!dont get me wrong it can be done with open sights but it gets iffy with em over 100 yards and theese guns nowdays are capable for 200.

[HunterLee]

If your worried about hitting them don't shoot. Your right as they are capable of shooting 200+. But we could just allow a single shot rifle hunt with a scope to. The deer, and the good bucks are getting hammered back already so thats what they need now is people with scoped muzzleloaders shooting at them that far. People push the limit of an ethical kill no matter what the effective range is.

I still thinks its dumb to allow people to hunt both firearm seasons.

[candiru]

This would be another blow to an already low deer population in the more open agricultural areas of MN.

I agree, go back to picking a season.

[reinhard1]

i dont have a problem with having a scope on a muzzleloader. as you get a little older a scope helps with accuracy. i just started using a scope last year for the first time during rifle season. the object of harvesting a deer when pulling the trigger is to make a clean kill shot. you can make a argument of why allow semi-automatics, lever action, pumps for firearms season. why not just allow single shots if the amount of deer harvest is the concern. good luck.

[lakevet]

Unfortunately, the general trend is to allow more technology to increase hunters ability to harvest deer, which is followed by more restrictions of some type on what you (or worse yet your kids) can harvest to protect the resource. Would you rather fish in the twin cities metro with the latest technology but strict slots and limits, waiting lines at the launch ramp, 2 or 3 boats crowding you on the hump you fish, or a private lake up north with an old row boat and a fishing rod hook, line and sinker bucket of live bait, no slot, and the only other one fishing was the loon on the lake? There are those who would like the BWCA open to motors to make it easier, but the fishing would not be the same.

Some things should stay a little hard/difficult.

Muzzy season has already been morphed in many ways into a continuation of the regular firearms season and all that comes with it. It is becoming more like that metro fishing choice every year.

The older person eyesight argument is not valid. Peep sights solve that problem nicely as the rear sight ring is supposed to be fuzzy. Two eye docs I know say this and use peeps themselves as well as advising older hunters to do the same. Peep sights are used for competition (look at olympic biathalon rifles) and are very accurate out to several hundred yards. There may have been scopes long ago, but they were only available to the rich and famous or elite military units, not the general public. Those with legitimate vision problems have always been allowed the use of a non magnifying scope.

Scopes will only extend the effective range of muzzy hunters, resulting in more restrictions on what muzzy hunters can harvest.

The muzzy season has already deteriorated to the point that muzzy only youth hunters in parts of SW MN cannot even shoot a doe, because the DNR says muzzy hunters are major contributors to the deer overharvest in those areas. Unbelievably, shotgun kids could still put in for lottery does in some of those areas.

60,000 muzzy hunters X $100 per scope = $6,000,000 reasons why Toby Bridges and a few others want this law passed.

60,0000 muzzy hunters x $26 a license= $1,560,000 reasons why the DNR wants hunters to hunt muzzy in addition to regular firearms and wants them to stay interested in the hunt.

The old guard DNR worried about muzzy hunters over harvesting deer and had specific regs to allow muzzy hunters to enjoy a season, but also very effectively protected the resource from over harvest and provided a very high quality hunt in terms of low hunter density and easy access to private land. Those guys retired and the new guard DNR has not seen fit to maintain these safeguards that had served us so well for years (can't hunt muzzy & reg firearms,need to pick one season, no scopes). DNR has removed one safeguard (pick a season) then blamed muzzy for over harvest in SW banned muzzy kids from shooting does and now has no opinion on scopes. They look at muzzy now as revenue source, and population management tool. It no longer looks at the muzzy season as a season that allows hunters who want the self imposed challenge of older LIMITING technology, difficult late season hunting conditions, in exchange for very low hunter conflict/competition, easy access to private land, and the ability to take any deer no matter how low the deer population. With the new DNR philosophy look for more restrictions, even on the youth. and more competition with other hunters.

The only thing I can see happening to reverse some of this is having pick a season return in areas with low deer populations. Or a strict separate traditional season with cap/flint sidelocks and patched round ball, no other firearm license purchase allowed, no scopes. This historically was about 10,000 hunters and they were a non issue to the harvest impact on the resource.

In the past in response to push for scopes, a countering more restrictive bill requiring muzzy hunters to use side locks with percussion caps or flintlocks was introduced and a stalemate resulted in no changes. Does anyone know if that is still the case?

Pray for nasty weather during muzzy.

lakevet

[lakevet]

Vote to make em legal dont do it for yourself, do it for the deer ,you got one shot and every hunter i know wants to put em down with one shot instead of tracking em for miles after wounding one or spending sleepless nights wondering if you connected or not!dont get me wrong it can be done with open sights but it gets iffy with em over 100 yards and theese guns nowdays are capable for 200.

A lot of hunters aren't capable of 200 yards with a modern centerfire at the range, much less under hunting conditions with a muzzleloader. If wounded deer is a concern, why don't you push for a skills test for hunters so they have to prove they are capable of shooting the gun accurately out to 200 yds? I have spent enough time at the range the week before deer season and seen guys with guns capable of 500 yds kills that can't shoot a decent group at 100 yds with a scope. Allowing more technology doesn't help, the major reason for wounded deer is human error, not equipment!

lakevet

[Marksman]

Lakevet,

How would you feel about 1x scopes being used?

[TooTallTom]

I'm with LakeVet on this one. Those who need them (for medical reasons) can already use a scope. There is no need for optics on a muzzleloader, and I think that using optics kind of flies in the face of the "primitive use" idea that was behind the introduction of a muzzy-only season.

I'm also all for a skills test for hunting big game animals, and not just for muzzy hunters. If you want to hunt, you should have to demonstrate that you're capable of making good judgements about which shots to take and of making good shots when you do shoot. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than nothing.

[Marksman]

I'm sorry I don't see the problem. If you say muzzy season is meant as a prmitive weapons season they shouldn't allow inline muzzle loaders rather than scopes. I have seen a lot of deer lost because of what I beleive are not quite perfect shots with holes that seem to freeze up in extreme cold weather. I am not talking long shots either. The shots where taken from experienced hunters as well. I also don't believe a special class is the answer either, what do you think Hunters Education is.

[TooTallTom]

I'd be okay with allowing only side-lock firearms during muzzy season. Without scopes.

Hunter's Education is great. It's also not mandatory. Gun safety is mandatory, but really, really basic. (Unless it has changed a whole lot in the last 15-20 years.) I don't think a class is necessary, but a theory test on ethical shots to take and a performance test on actually shooting in field situations would not hurt us at all.

We require the same kinds of testing for drivers, so why not hunters? Go get certified every three years or so. If people want a class to prepare them for the exams, more power to them. Maybe I'll teach one.

[lakevet]

If you don't qualify under existing regulation for use of scope, then you shouldn't be allowed any type of scope.

I have relatives who shot open sights til they were 90 and one who got permit for scope due to retinal damage from disease.

Allowing scopes results in an increased dependence on technology to get you a clean ethical shot, instead of honing your hunting skills and shooting skills to achieve a clean ethical shot by getting closer or increased ability to shoot ethically longer range with open sights. Open sights makes the hunt harder, which is a major reason the old guard DNR allowed a muzzy season in the first place. Any scope will extend the range of many hunters (or at least the distance they THINK they can shoot) , esp if they are not willing to hone their shooting skills. Also if we have non magnifying scopes, the push will quickly change to "why not 4X scopes?".

Think about this:

When asking permission to muzzy, landowners used to look at our open iron sighted, percussion cap, round ball sidelocks and say "Sure you can hunt. Good luck getting anything with those old guns!"

Now they have seen muzzy hunters with guns with 209 primers, synthetic stocks, bolt actions show up asking for permission and have seen tv shows of modern muzzy guns with scopes sniping big bucks at long range on TV and shooting catalogs with muzzy scopes with drop compensation reticles out to 250 yards and they say " no way can you hunt with those guns. You could pick off the big buck that is still on my property!" They assume we all have centerfire like performing muzzy guns.

The landowners common sense told them that the technology makes it easier. Maybe too easy. Allowing scopes will worsen this dynamic.

Many hunters want it easier, and the thought of having to pass on a trophy buck at 150 yds broadside drives them to push for technology (such as 1X scopes) to extend the range so they can harvest muzzy deer at longer ranges. They don't want to work on honing their hunting skills so they can get within 50 yds of that deer or perfecting open sights shooting skills so they can shoot open sights out to 150 yards. They think "if only I had a scope I could have got that buck! It is stupid I can"t go buy a scope and put in on this muzzy gun the manufacturer and Joe media star hunter says will shoot out to 300yards. Dumb regulations!!!"

They should be thinking, "how can I get closer to that buck next time?" and "I gotta spend more time at the range!"

As I asked in my earlier post, would you prefer fishing a metro lake with all the latest technology and lots of slots/restrictions/fishing pressure/competition... or the private lake up north with rowboat and basic old fishing technology, no slots and a loon as the only other one fishing your area? The scope issue cuts to the core issue of why do you want to hunt a muzzy season? I prefer old limiting technology and low hunter density coupled with any deer being legal and easier access to private lands. Just my 2 cents. Those that want a season different than that, I believe you are short changing yourself AND changing the hunt for those who like the original muzzy experience.

lakevet

[lakevet]

Marksman, this is in reply to your question about allowing 1X scopes.

If you don't qualify under existing regulation for use of scope, then you shouldn't be allowed any type of scope.

I have relatives who shot open sights til they were 90 and one who got permit for scope due to retinal damage from disease.

Allowing scopes results in an increased dependence on technology to get you a clean ethical shot, instead of honing your hunting skills and shooting skills to achieve a clean ethical shot by getting closer or increased ability to shoot ethically longer range with open sights. Open sights makes the hunt harder, which is a major reason the old guard DNR allowed a muzzy season in the first place. Any scope will extend the range of many hunters (or at least the distance they THINK they can shoot) , esp if they are not willing to hone their shooting skills. Also if we have non magnifying scopes, the push will quickly change to "why not 4X scopes?".

Think about this:

When asking permission to muzzy, landowners used to look at our open iron sighted, percussion cap, round ball sidelocks and say "Sure you can hunt. Good luck getting anything with those old guns!"

Now they have seen muzzy hunters with guns with 209 primers, synthetic stocks, bolt actions show up asking for permission and have seen tv shows of modern muzzy guns with scopes sniping big bucks at long range on TV and shooting catalogs with muzzy scopes with drop compensation reticles out to 250 yards and they say " no way can you hunt with those guns. You could pick off the big buck that is still on my property!" They assume we all have centerfire like performing muzzy guns.

The landowners common sense told them that the technology makes it easier. Maybe too easy. Allowing scopes will worsen this dynamic.

Many hunters want it easier, and the thought of having to pass on a trophy buck at 150 yds broadside drives them to push for technology (such as 1X scopes) to extend the range so they can harvest muzzy deer at longer ranges. They don't want to work on honing their hunting skills so they can get within 50 yds of that deer or perfecting open sights shooting skills so they can shoot open sights out to 150 yards. They think "if only I had a scope I could have got that buck! It is stupid I can"t go buy a scope and put in on this muzzy gun the manufacturer and Joe media star hunter says will shoot out to 300yards. Dumb regulations!!!"

They should be thinking, "how can I get closer to that buck next time?" and "I gotta spend more time at the range!"

As I asked in my earlier post, would you prefer fishing a metro lake with all the latest technology and lots of slots/restrictions/fishing pressure/competition... or the private lake up north with rowboat and basic old fishing technology, no slots and a loon as the only other one fishing your area? The scope issue cuts to the core issue of why do you want to hunt a muzzy season? I prefer old limiting technology and low hunter density coupled with any deer being legal and easier access to private lands. Just my 2 cents. Those that want a season different than that, I believe you are short changing yourself AND changing the hunt for those who like the original muzzy experience.

lakevet

[lakevet]

Sorry about the double posting!

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

I'm tired of the "well other states do that argument" to all the changes in hunting and angling. I thought we used to manage to try to protect our resources somewhat and to all those wounded muzzy deer I'm sure these hyped up shooters won't flinch or now shoot at deer outside the range of the gun when a scope is on it. Now people can blast early or late especially against a snow background, forget muzzy, lets just have a 25 day rifle season, next lets allow single shot rifles during muzzleloader, I'm just not clear where our state is headed in a lot of areas.

[Marksman]

Lakevet you can still use your old muzzy to hunt evan if I want to use an inline with a scope to make sure I make an ethical kill. It sounds to me like you want to be alone.

[lichen fox]

That's exactly right! Alot of the folks who are against something are against it for a reason...Sure it's nice to have more area to yourself, that's part of the advantage of hunting with archery or muzzleloaders...there are simply alot less people hunting during those seasons than in the regular firearms season. But, I don't buy for one minute, with all the technological advances in almost all weapons, that allowing the use of scopes on muzzleloaders is going to decimate the deer herd...you can still only take what ever the limit is from a particular zone...1 - 2 or 5....and only one can be a buck! As for "wounding" and making bad shot decisions??? I'd be willing to bet there is a much higher percentage of "modern firearms" hunters that do these things than the percentage of muzzleloader or archery hunters...The goal is to mangage the numbers of animals, it doesn't matter what the "legal" weapon is, the goal is still to manage the herd within carring capacity of the land...last year they made 22 calibur center fires legal...while there was a big debate about that, I haven't heard any horror stories about the thousands of deer wounded because of that being allowed... and I'm sure if they allow scopes on muzzleloaders the percentages of bad shots will probably stay the same as will the "total" harvest by muzzy hunters.

[Musky Buck]

Thing is none of us should have a chance to muzzy hunt really should we ? They added seven days to our rifle season or 5 depends on 4A or 4B. The true patient muzzy hunters were really blindsided and lost out on their tradition meaning they knew there'd be 200,000 less deer to hunt by the time their season rolled around each season. Clean ethical kills lol, so some were out there holding an open sight knowingly unable to make an ethical kill shame on them, now the reason can be well I must have bumped my scope, it's off, that's why I wounded it or well it was running or whatever or I tried to thread it between two trees. Scopes on muzzy's, crossbow talk, longer seasons, thousands illegally baiting, etc. so much technological advances. Just to old for the new era, as Metallica sang Kill em all.

[Marksman]

I see no problem with a fixed 1x scope to gain a better sight picture. Instead of buckhorn or a peep sight blurring or blocking half my target. I believe why most people don't want scopes is because they are afraid of the increase in hunters resulting in competion to hunt public and private land.

[MinDak Hunter]

I would like to see MN go to same/similar rules as Colorado. This is from page 6 of the CO hunting regs...

"3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS

a. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons.

b. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.

c. Must be single-barrel that fires a single round-ball or conical

projectile.

d. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be minimum of

.40 caliber.

e. To hunt elk or moose, they must

be minimum of .50 caliber.

f. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber,

bullets must weigh minimum

170 grains.

g. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets

must weigh minimum 210

grains.

h. Shotshell primers are legal.

i. Pelletized powder systems prohibited

in muzzleloading seasons.

j. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.

k. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons.

Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on

open or iron sights are legal. Scopes or any sighting device

using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited

during muzzleloading seasons.

l. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth

patches are not sabots.

m. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.

Black powder and black-powder substitutes are legal.

n. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated

into or attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading

seasons."

[Musky Buck]

I'm not concerned about the musket population other than how many of these guys have a very good rifle season already only to pound on our resources further because they "saved their tag". The greed in the sport is sickening at times and for the hunter densities in some areas there is way too much opportunity in which we are just sabotaging each others hunts making the deer in many areas nearly completely nocturnal. Scopes on muzzy's isn't the issue really, I guess it is, but we shouldn't have the chance to musket hunt us rifle guys in my view. We still would take enough deer per season and deer numbers fluctuate anyway year to year. You 10,000 die hards must have vomited when they passed that change, I know my dad did.

[lakevet]

From the 2010 hunting regulations, page 90

"YOUTH ONLY ANTLERLESS DEER AREAS

All muzzleloader hunters are restricted to bucks only. A limited number of youth permits are offered for the firearm season only"

Gotta love a state that bans kids who muzzy hunt only from their dream of shooting a deer, any deer, while hunting with family at or near home in a so called "youth antlerless area", while letting the trophy buck hunter hunt all of archery, all regular firearms season and also all of muzzy season pursuing his dream of putting one on the wall. And letting the local hunter who hunted shotgun and pounded the bucks and now buys a muzzy license to hunt even more, and wants to scope his muzzy just like his shotgun.

And now as a DNR we are "neutral" about letting them use scopes, because we have a new and improved philosophy about what the muzzy hunt is all about! You muzzy kids are so devastating on the antlerless population that we won't let muzzy kids shoot a doe BUT will let shotgun kids draw for doe permits and some of them will get to shoot a doe! And let shotgun hunters also hunt all of muzzy season! By the way, we are neutral about muzzy hunters using scopes. That is not a problem, its the kids with muzzleloaders!!!!!

The push for scopes on muzzy's is just a symptom of this new philosophy

Everyone having access to every area and season with the latest technology (including scopes on muzzy guns) always means more pressure on the resource, and more restrictions will follow to protect or maybe if bad enough damage is done, allow the resource to recover.

Even if it means banning muzzy kids from shooting a doe as their first deer.

I propose that low deer population areas revert back to the regulations that served us so well in the past to allow herd to rebound.

1) Pick a season... reg firearms or muzzy. Not both! This prevents large numbers of casual muzzy hunters from using youth muzzy permits to shoot too many does. The slobs who do this won't give up the regular firearms season to hunt muzzy.

2) No scopes on muzzys!

2) Any kid 17 and under gets a doe permit. In fact in all the years where you had to pick a season, muzzy hunters never were restricted to bucks only and deer rebounded very well at the same time.

lakevet

[lakevet]

I'm sorry I don't see the problem. If you say muzzy season is meant as a prmitive weapons season they shouldn't allow inline muzzle loaders rather than scopes. I have seen a lot of deer lost because of what I beleive are not quite perfect shots with holes that seem to freeze up in extreme cold weather. I am not talking long shots either. The shots where taken from experienced hunters as well. I also don't believe a special class is the answer either, what do you think Hunters Education is.

You say you have personally seen a lot of deer lost. Exactly how many have YOU seen, not just rumor. Muzzy wounds may not bleed much initially, and good tracking skills are invaluable, as well as understanding that you NEED to follow up for longer distances after the shot, even if there is absolutely no sign of a hit on the snow! It is one of many adjustments that a responsible hunter needs to be aware of and make when taking up muzzy hunting. I personally have tracked a deer in fresh snow that traveled over 250 yards after the shot without a drop of blood and no hair (strong wind blowing across field where deer was shot likely carried hair away from track) only to find the deer dead from a high double lung pass thru shot from a .54 cal muzzy projectile. This just goes with the territory, and requires more skill and effort. Again, muzzy isn't about easy as possible, but instead it is about choosing a season that limits you to old technology with shorter range, in exchange for hunting with fewer restrictions as to what you can shoot, and hopefully lower hunter density.

Also a bad shot is a bad shot is a bad shot, whether a 12 ga with a bead on the end of the barrel, a 50 cal muzzy open sights or as one guy I know who has trouble finding deer after the shot, a scoped 375 H & H mag. Scopes don't solve the problem. It is a human problem of not knowing your limits and staying within them.

lakevet

[TooTallTom]

Scopes don't solve the problem. It is a human problem of not knowing your limits and staying within them.

lakevet

And knowing the limits of the equipment you're using, and being willing to abide by those as well.

[PFUNK]

I don't see the problem of allowing a scope on your muzzleloader. I think this would be a non-issue if you simply had to pick between a regular firearm season or the muzzy season. Then all your "casual" muzzy guys will stick with the firearm season and the hardcore muzzy hunters get their season back. Then, those hardcore muzzy guys can decide whether they wanna use a scope or not to be more "modern". But I don't see why any hardcore muzzy guy gives a rip if the next muzzy guy wants to use a scope or not. That scope isn't going to make him any better a "hunter". Sure might improve his acuracy a little IF he puts himself in position to take a shot. But you have to do a lot of other things right during a tough muzzleloader season to even get the chance to take a shot. If it makes him more comfortable to have a scope on his gun and he can shoot better groups... GOOD. That is a GOOD thing. The issue is that we DEPEND ON EACH OTHER to know their personal limits with or without a scope. Legalizing them may make some guys think "awesome... now I can get the full 200 yards out of my muzzleloader". But some of them are gonna go to sight it in and find out they can't shoot effectively that far anyhow, and anyone who cares about being an ethical hunter isn't gonna push his boundaries. Changing the scope law won't change anyones ethics.

[Marksman]

I have seen three in 6 years that is what we have lost. I know what you are going to say 3 is not a lot compared to maybe some peoples rifle season. But it is for the people I hunt with. Please don't question my tracking skills or my effort. We found blood on all three of those deer, 2 of them dropped on the spot only to get up again. I believe they were shot high and didn't bleed much because the holes either plugged up with tallow or froze up because of extreme cold temperatures. All three shots were clear shots less than 75 yards with .50 cal.

I do agree with giving kids and beginning hunters all the opportunities in the world to shoot deer. That is why I don't support antler point restrictions. I think it is a personal choice. That is also why I think they should legalize scopes for muzzy season. It is a personal choice if you want to make your hunt easier or harder. Muzzy season is also about controlling the deer population and having fun.

[TooTallTom]

I agree that forcing hunters to pick a season would be one good way to limit pressure and allow for more freedom within that season.

One thought I had about this today is that it's perfectly legal to put a scope on your modern muzzleloader and hunt with it in MN. You just have to do it during rifle season. There's no reason that an ethical muzzy hunter can't compete with ethical rifle shooters if both have firearms that are good for 200-yard shots. Both should be making one-shot kills anyway. (I know it doesn't always happen, but that's the goal, right?) So, if you want to use a scope on your muzzy, hang up your regular rifle and go to it.

I think the idea of a tradeoff for muzzy season between more equipment restrictions on the hunters who choose to participate in exchange for more freedom regarding legal deer/ longer season is a fair one.

We've gotten so attached (as a society) to the idea that we have to have everything all the time in order for something to be fair. I don't think that's the case.

[bowhunternw]

I am with the guys that if they do this then you have to pick a season. Because the only reason to have a muzzleloader season is to give some the chance to hunt with a few less people in the field. Todays muzzleloader is just a single shot rifle, it can't get much easier. Heck I would even like to see the pick a season extend into bow too, pick one and only one. Spread the hunters out a little. People with thier own land don't understand, but it helps give those without land access to private land.

[Musky Buck]

Not trying to attack you marksman really I'm not but we have also hit deer high at 75 yards or less and that .50 cal with a 370 grain slug, those deer staggered off looking drunker than a drunken sailor and they could not get up again after a very short tracking effort. The body shock and hole size, they were noodled beyond recognition. Under the spine above the core lung area, it does make some difference if you shoot from the ground or up in a stand I guess and you assume with a scope in 25 below weather wind howling you'll place that shot like Goober Pyle on Andy Griffith "can take an ear off a fly at 20 paces". Muzzy season is about controlling deer numbers......now you're losing me. Whoever said pick Muzzy or Rifle with your scope, I'm totally with that, 1 or the other, no more honey get up I got him, bring your tag, I'll leave him lay until you get here, save mine for muzzy season or oh you can only hunt first weekend so lets use your tags first, if you connect then I'd tag yours cause I gotta save my muzzy tag so I can get buck # 2 yeehaw. Easy solution, 16 day of muzz right, scope hunter you can have the 1st 4 days, traditionalists you get the 16. Your feathers ruffled yet, bottom line if it was 1995 none of this jibber jabber would be happening, technology is great eh, better hit submit before my machine locks up again.