white tail caliber ?

[swamptiger]

Quote:

I would think maybe on grizzlies, but black bears are pretty much up close & personal most of the time aren't they? They're pretty much in the woods from what I know, that probably doesn't say much.

And shot from a stand over a bait pile - so what's the average distance, 25 - 50 yds?

[picksbigwagon]

My next rifle will be a 308. wide range of bullets and is readily available in Finlayson at the bobber stop. I base availability of bullets as something to think about as well. If you are out of your normal area and suddenly are out of bullets, will the small town local place have your caliber. 243, 308, 30-06 and 7mm are always on the shelves at the local mom and pop place. the wssm and win mag calibers are not always available everywhere.

the next rifle after that will have to be a M1 Garande, but is a dream at this point

[jay83196]

Good ol Petrys bait in finlayson...:)

[fishermatt]

+1 for 30.06. I have shot a 30.06 for about 25 years, and like the 180 grain bullets (Rem core lokt PSP). I switched to 150 gr. a few years ago, and I noticed that the deer ran further even when mortally wounded by a double lung shot than with the 180s, so I switched back. If you hunt small acreage or state land and need the deer to stop moving quickly, the larger caliber and bullet will help in my opinion. Smaller caliber/bullet = more blood trailing in the long run.

The longer the shot, the greater the potential margin of error! If I'm going to make a less than perfect shot, (maybe some of you guys never do this!) I'd prefer to inflict as much damage as possible.

I have practiced out to 343 yards with my '06, and using the ballistics chart for my cartridge I have gotten pretty accurate. I have killed a deer at 240 yards, but have not tried a shot longer than that at a live animal. No matter what gun and bullet you shoot, if you want to be consistently accurate at 300+ you will need to know the ballistics of your cartridge by heart (or carry the chart with you)and have done some practicing at long ranges. Love these kind of discussions, gets the blood stirring for fall and deer season.

[bigbucks]

Just curious, but why specifically 343 yards? Maybe that's just the farthest distance you could get on some field with a good backstop or perhaps the distance from a stand to the absolute furthest trail you see the entrance from?

[fishermatt]

BigBucks, great guesses! 343 is the ranged distance from my Barn (where the stand is in the hayloft) to the furthest trail entrance onto my field that I can see from there. I figured that would be a good place to practice shooting to.

[jay83196]

My next question as I think after doing the research and reading these I will get the 30-06 , what grain bullets? Im leaning towards 180 I like the extra energy and don't like tracking game so much, do you think it makes much difference 150 or 180... and in looking through a balistic table some brands often the larger weighted bullet has less energy than the lighter due to decrease in velocity so why would you use heavier in that case I never undertood that... it flies slower drops faster and less energy due to slower speed, maybe more stable flight or better through brush?

Thanks

[picksbigwagon]

Petry's, man I was way off.......My buddy has some land out by pine lake....we have been there a number of times, and the local watering hole for some Hedgies pizza and Horseradish

[MUSKY18]

I shoot the 270, as does almost everyone in our deer camp. I absolutely love this caliber. I have owned 30-06's in the past and they are great, just prefer the 270. I shoot a 140 grain bullet and I know that I can drive nails at 50 yards in the woods or 250 yards out in the open. Yes, it doesn't offer the wide variety of bullets grains as the 06, but I pretty much stick with one grain bullet anyhow. One of the guys in our deer camp has shot multiple elk out in Colorado up to 300 yds out and still have enough pop to make a good smack on the animal where they didn't have to trail it all over the country. Longest shot I have made with my 270 and actually taken a deer is 240 yards and had no doubts about taking the shot.

As for the 243....great little guns. Extremely fast and accurate and have more than enough pop to drop whitetails. The youngsters in deer camp shoot them. My father had a browning with the boss systems and that is one sweet little gun. My brother uses it and prefers it over his 270.

My next rifle is going to be a 270WSM!

[WalleyeGod]

Jay:

Slower speed depends on manufacturers load.

Not necessarily more stable flight probably Ballistic coefficient of that particular bullet. Lots of choices.

Not better through brush.

I wouldn't worry about you doing the picking. Let the gun/barrel do that on which one it will prefer to shoot most accurate. Sometimes a barrel doesn't mind them all to some degree. Pick a good bullet designed for the animal in pursuit and either of the two bullet weights in 30 cal will be sufficient. Energy out to 200 yards for these two weights is +/- around a ton. Plenty. You might try one in between at 165 grains. Suggest proper barrel break in on a new gun while you try some different factory loads unless you are a reloader then make some recipes up to see what shoots best. Burn some powder now and then go whack a big un later this fall!

WG

[MUSKY18]

Good point Walleye.....my Model 70 won't shoot one type of ammo that well. Can't get consistent groupings with it. Switched to Fail Safe bullets and it pulled the groupings right in.

[CodyDawg]

Someone asked what you can expect from a 243 in terms of knockdown power. Knockdown power has everything to do with shot placement and little to do with gun caliber. In fact, bullet type has way more to do with it than gun caliber. Having said all that, IMO, a properly placed bullet (right behind the front leg on a broadside shot) that gets either both lungs or the heart will NOT knock a deer down very often. I have shot a lot of deer with a 12 gauge slug in this area and I have only had 2 go down and both of them came up again and took off. None of them have gone very far however, 50-75 yards later they pile up. Every time. The way to knock them down is by taking out the shoulders. That seems sexy, but you miss just a touch forward and you wound or miss the deer. The best shot with the greatest margin for error is the lung/heart shot.

If the 11 year old girl puts a quality bullet from a 243 into this area, you can take out the camera and start snapping hero pics.

to answer the OP, do you have any aspirations of an elk or moose hunt? If so, i would lean to the 30/06 or 7mm or 300 win or 300 WSM range. they work fine for whitetails with smaller boolits and give you the option of chasing some larger critters a little more effectively. I personally dont see any downside to shooting a little more caliber provided you can shoot it effectively...remember, shot placement is key.

[Get'n Jiggy]

I love my Bar .270. Takes down Deer and Bear no problem. Plus If you ever did want to use it out west its a good distance gun too.

+1

[jay83196]

So what type of bullet is recomoended for best damage knock down or penetration etc. I have usually looked at best balistics but that's probably not best way to pick so whats best? Used Barnes x a lot and partition golds often.

[cribbageboy]

I shoot a Rem. Model 700 in .270 Cal. In my personal opinion I have noticed little to no difference in knock down power between grains. One of the reasons for this has already been explained by shot placement. Another basic principle is (Mass x Velocity = Momentum). Larger the grain of the bullet, the higher the mass, the lower the velocity. Smaller the grain of the bullet, the lower the mass, the higher the velocity. Both will result in relatively the same amount of momentum/energy at impact, with the later being slightly flatter shooting. Any ballistic chart will agree.

[CANOPY SAM]

Thanks for the insight gentlemen. I thought the .243 would be a comfortable caliber for her. The gun also has a nice recoil pad, and has a little weight, so the kick should be almost non-existent.

For the record, I've shot a .300 Win. Mag for a few years now. It's way, way too much gun for a deer. In some instances I've nearly cut them in half.

Jay83196, if you want to drop a deer where it stands, a 300 winnie mag couldn't be better. You might need a spatula to clean up the remains though. I intend to trade mine away ASAP.

I'm thinking .270 on the exchange.

[WalleyeGod]

Jay:

As an example/list of possibilities that may or may not shoot well for you.

Remington Ultra Bonded PSP

Federal Premium Sierra Gameking

Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silver Tip

This is just a few as there are plenty others out there. These are available in the 150-180 grain bullets and also available with other premium bullets as well. Pick your poison that works well for your gun.

My 30-06 used to like the old Red box Federals and grouped them quite well. Shot many a deer with those and I still like the belt shell carrier that came with the box at the time.

Good luck,

WG

[swamptiger]

I usually use the 165 gr. Sierra BTSP or Nosler partition bullet in the Federal Premium ammo in the 30.06 - both seem to do a good job.

[WaveWacker]

Got on this late. 30-06? Wish I could have thrown in my $.02 for the .308 BAR. My dad shot one for 30+ years and I have ~20 years of shooting one under my belt. The 30-06 is a great caliber but I would not trade my .308 for anything.

Oh, whatever caliber you get I would HIGHLY recommend to not lube it up with anything other than WD40 with the BAR. For whatever reasons I used some other lubricants and nothing allows my BAR to perform/cycle in cold weather as well as WD40. Rem Oil is probably on the absolute bottom of the list. Will absolutely slow down your cycle time. Happened on both my BAR and the Benelli SBE.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Another basic principle is (Mass x Velocity = Momentum). Larger the grain of the bullet, the higher the mass, the lower the velocity. Smaller the grain of the bullet, the lower the mass, the higher the velocity. Both will result in relatively the same amount of momentum/energy at impact, with the later being slightly flatter shooting. Any ballistic chart will agree.

Another thing to look at is the sectional density of the bullet - this explains why some of the smaller diameter, longer bullets will get good penetration with less weight.

[shortfatguy]

For that gun I would say .308 win. The short action calibers feed much more smoothly than the longer calibers. It would make that gun much more reliable. So hands down in that gun you just can't beat the .308

I agree with going with a short action but I would take the 300 WSM

[jay83196]

Thanks fun topic to talk about... I looked into the 308 vs 30-06 but the 30-06 has a slight higher balistics both in energy and velocity with in the same exact rounds and it has a wider range of ammo I looked in stores and have several books 30-06 are lighter down to 55 grain (if I wanted to varmint hunt) up to 220 grain the 308 doesnt offer those and seemed to have little less selection also (as far as I could find anyway) so it seemed to me the 308 had no advantage over the 06. If I'm mistaken or missed something let me know.

[BobT]

Jay:

As an example/list of possibilities that may or may not shoot well for you.

Remington Ultra Bonded PSP

Federal Premium Sierra Gameking

Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silver Tip

This is just a few as there are plenty others out there. These are available in the 150-180 grain bullets and also available with other premium bullets as well. Pick your poison that works well for your gun.

My 30-06 used to like the old Red box Federals and grouped them quite well. Shot many a deer with those and I still like the belt shell carrier that came with the box at the time.

Good luck,

WG

For short-range use such as hunting in MN I'd avoid the ballistic silver tips. I have found that unless you hit bone they don't expand and the exit hole is the same size as the entrance. Fortunately for me, my shot placement was good and I didn't have to go far to find my quarry but had I not hit vitals, I would have left at least two deer wounded for wolf bait.

[swamptiger]

It's true you can get the 30-06 bullets up to 220 grain. What 55 grain bullet is available for the 30-06? I know they used to make the 55 gr. Accelerators for both the .308 and the 30-06, but I haven't seen them for a while.

In your first post, you said you were looking for a deer gun for up to 200 yard shots, so there isn't any need for the heavy bullets for that. The 30-06 does have a slight ballistic advantage, and with the heavier weight bullets you could use it for bigger game. The new .308 BAR in the camo is a couple ounces lighter than the 30-06 - no big deal. The .308 cartridges are shorter than the 30-06, so they might cycle better in an auto, but probably not noticably. If you like a 30-06, I'd say go for it.

[WalleyeGod]

Bob:

What caliber and what distance were those deer shot using the Ballistic Silvertip?

WG

[MUSKY18]

I shot Ballistic Silvertips in my 270 for a couple of years. THey seemed to do a good job on the deer I shot with them, however, when I switched to Fail Safe, it was a much better bullet IMHO. Expanded better after penetration.

The thing I really like about the Winchester Supreme Ammo is that they make the CPX2 for deer and smaller game, and then you can buy the CPX3 rounds, which are made for bigger game such as Elk and Moose. More penetration before expansion.

[BobT]

Less than 50 yards. Typical short-range shots you encounter in the north woods.

[jay83196]

Like I said just seemed to be no advantage to the 308 I didn't think they were much if any shorter either for cycling purposes either but maybe they are? MAybe the 55 accelerators are not available pay them in a book I have on balistics, just weighting options between 308 and 06 and pay them among others not avail for 308, atleast they were not listed in my books. Ultimately not sure what if any advantage 308 would have, less recoil? I'm an auto 30-06 isn't much anyway, several people mention the 308 so I did some looking and compared.

Thanks, its fun to discuss and read opinions if we can hunt we can talk about it...

[swamptiger]

Without actually measuring, I guess between 1/2 and 3/4 inch difference in the length of the two cartridges.

[WalleyeGod]

yeh, half inch.

Bob: With a 30-06 caliber? which grain bullet if so?

Thanks,

WG