Capps

[Eric Wettschreck]

At what point does he become a set up man and drop the closer role????

Dude sure makes a couple run lead interesting.

[SledNeck]

I think what should happen is Crain taking over closing duties.

I hope Fuentes gets healthy soon too.

[Big Tom]

Fuentes had an MRI on his back today. I hope the news is good.

[SledNeck]

on the other hand...capps cant be any worse than nathan in sept and oct.....

[mr_jman]

Yes Capps sure isn't a dominating closer. Hate to take a 1 run lead to the 9th against the Yankees in the playoffs and have to rely on him..... Sadly it could easily end up that way!

[soldoncass]

I was expecting Crain in the 9th tonight, because Capps had pitched 2 days in a row. He got it done....but, made it interesting, like Rauch usually did. Fuentes hasn't been much help so far.

[MinnesnowtaWild]

Yeah Capps is a great pitcher but wow he seems to always make things interesting.

Like mentioned I'm not sure he is the one we want to shut down the Yanks or Rays in the playoffs (if we make them).

[Harmonica Bear]

Capps = Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down.

[harvey lee]

Capps keeps one on the edge of their seat the whole 9th inning.

If the Twins are to go deep into the play-offs, he has to get alot better or be replaced.

I would love to have Nathan back right now even with knowing he will mess a game up here or there.

[mrklean]

i went from saying we have this game in the bag to oh ..... are we gonna win?

[hcmpls1]

Meanwhile, Ramos went 2/3, with a HR and 2 RBIs yesterday...

[jwmiller33]

when the twins traded for capps, everyone on here seemed to think he was a godsend and he was going to end all of our bullpen problems.... it seemed like i was the only one of here who didnt think capps was that good... i hate to say i told you so.... but.... i told you so

[mrklean]

he still got the save and is 10/12 so far, one of those blown saves turned to a win so he isnt a total bust yet, and really we didnt need ramos we have mauer, i still think it was a decent trade. Untill he starts really stinking it up let the playoffs come

[fishinphilth]

on the other hand...capps cant be any worse than nathan in sept and oct.....

Sled, arnt you the one that came up with [PoorWordUsage] [PoorWordUsage] crain?

[DonBo]

he still got the save and is 10/12 so far, one of those blown saves turned to a win so he isnt a total bust yet, and really we didnt need ramos we have mauer, i still think it was a decent trade. Untill he starts really stinking it up let the playoffs come

Exactly! You guys need to relax. No one is going to be perfect. As long as he gets it done it doesn't matter how many hits or runs he gives up, as long as it's not as many runs as we've got. He's got 36 total saves this season, he's pretty darn good.

Remember Eddie? Everyone loved him yet he rarely had a 1-2-3 inning. He'd give up a hit, walk a guy, hit a guy then strike out 3 straight. Save accomplished! Capps appears to be the same kind of closer. He's had some outstanding appearances, he's had some poor ones, in the end he's 10 for 12 for us with 36 total saves. Not many others in the league even come close.

[Jim Panfish Uran]

I'd rather see him in there than Rauch... that guy was scary to watch close a game. Capps reminds me of Every Day Eddy in how he makes a save seem really intersting.

[PierBridge]

when the twins traded for capps, everyone on here seemed to think he was a godsend and he was going to end all of our bullpen problems.... it seemed like i was the only one of here who didnt think capps was that good... i hate to say i told you so.... but.... i told you so

He's only blown one save Delmonty blew the other. No one said he was a godsend but picking up another arm just makes the team and entire staff a lot better. It was just another golden pick-up by us!!!!!

You didn't tell us anything other than our starting pitching wasn't good enough and it appears you are the one that is/was WRONG!

Go Twins!

[Big Dave2]

Meanwhile, Ramos went 2/3, with a HR and 2 RBIs yesterday...

What else would you do with Ramos? Send Joe Mauer and his 23 mil. contract down to the minors? They had to trade Ramos sometime and he was not going to get enough playing time here to even showcase him.

[jwmiller33]

You didn't tell us anything other than our starting pitching wasn't good enough and it appears you are the one that is/was WRONG!

[jwmiller33]

and Pier, it is still a little early to say our starting pitching problems are in the rear view mirror although they have really turned things around as of late. what we still lack is that ace that can go out and pitch 8 or 9 innings in a duel with sabathia/price/lee in october... yes we have liriano who is awesome, but we have to see how we match up in a 5 game series and see how our inexperienced pitchers do in the post season before we can say our starting pitching problems are gone.

[Big Dave2]

...............................

Capps was available for nothing this past offseason. Non-tendered by the pirates after posting a 5.80 ERA and a .324 opponents batting average (keep in mind this was in the NL). The Nats signed him for $3.5 mil because they were the only team that would let him remain a closer. Capps reputation as a "experienced closer" basically comes from him mopping up saves on bad teams. Its not like Rauch has done horrible for us, he has converted 21/25 saves with a 3.05 ERA and 27/9 strikeout to walk ratio in 38.1 innings. If he had been given the whole season, he probably would have turned into/been considered an "establish closer" much like Capps. These are some excerpts from Aaron Gleeman's take on this trade.

Take a look at their career numbers:

IP ERA FIP SO/9 BB/9 AVG OBP SLG OPS

Capps 317 3.50 3.80 7.0 1.7 .263 .302 .415 .717

Rauch 402 3.54 3.90 7.5 2.7 .242 .297 .390 .687

Their overall effectiveness is nearly identical across the board. The biggest difference between them is Capps has accumlated saves for 4 seasons while Rauch has been given that role for just 1 season, while Rauch's one season are pretty much in par with Capps career numbers.

I'd hardly suggest the Twins trading Ramos for a reliever who is "slightly better" than Rauch is a sound idea, yet by focusing on the save statistic, the Twins have done just that and many fans will instinctively be on board with the move for an "established closer". What Capps is not is an elite reliever or enough of an upgrade to part with Ramos.

Capps is arbitration eligible next year and the Twins essentially traded Ramos and Vesta for 1.5 seasons of Capps. Unfortunately part of his inflated perceived value includes his likely price-tag in arbitration, which is sure to rise from this year's $3.5 million salary to over $5 million (and perhaps well over $5 million) thanks to those same shiny-looking save totals. Next season the Twins will pay a premium for a quality setup man they perceive as something more because of a reliance on a flawed statistic and they gave up a good catching prospect for the right do that.

In fairness, Ramos' value is at an all time low right now. His historic debut caused the Twins fans who don't know any better to assume that he was destined for stardom and his subsequent struggles at Triple-A have exposed him as a good but not great prospect. However, he still projects as a good defender behind the plate and a 22-year-old being overmatched in his first experience at Triple-A is far from disastrous.

I'm not convinced that Ramos will become a star, but the possibility certainly exists and at the very least he looks capable of developing into a starting-caliber catcher for many years. Joe Mauer's presence meant Ramos had little shot to be that starting-caliber catcher in Minnesota, but that doesn't mean the Twins needed to deal him immediately or when his value was at an all-time low or for an underwhelming return like Capps.

In the Twins' minds they just traded him for an "All-Star closer." In reality they traded Ramos for a setup-caliber reliever who accumulated saves on bad teams and is thus overrated and soon overpaid. Among the 93 pitchers who've logged 150-plus relief innings in the past three calendar years, Capps ranks 38th in xFIP, 49th in FIP, 50th in ERA, 61st in strikeout rate, and 85th in opponents' average.

The Twins just paid a premium for a guy whose perceived value and ability are much higher than his actual value and ability solely because of his role and save total. Capps is a good reliever, but the Twins paid for a great reliever and did so for all the wrong reasons.

Pier, sorry bud but it looks like you just got OWNED!

[B. Amish]

why do people keep talking about oswalt? hard to trade for a guy that has a no trade clause and doesn't want to join your team.

[PierBridge]

How did I get owned again?

I try to look at reality versus somebody's far fetched opinions. If you don't understand how Capps has improved our closer position actually giving us a closer versus a journey-men set-up guy and improved our over all pitching staff putting Rausch back where he belongs there isn't much we can do for you guys!

Go Twins!

[PierBridge]

Oh and a unproven catcher that will never see the day of light for us is hardly giving away anything at all.

Bottom line we improved our team dramatically and the fantasy land Spielberg take on how we all thought that Mariano Riverea or Rollie Fingers were being acquired is laughable at best.

[Coach1310]

Oh and a unproven catcher that will never see the day of light for us is hardly giving away anything at all.

Bottom line we improved our team dramatically and the fantasy land Spielberg take on how we all thought that Mariano Riverea or Rollie Fingers were being acquired is laughable at best.

Hey Pier... I know it sounds crazy... but I'm with you! Is Capps lights out??? No.... Is he the next Rivera??? NO, but he made our bullpen better and deeper.

JW... you can talk about adding a starting pitcher all you want, but Oswalt wasn't coming here, Seattle wanted Hicks AND Ramos as part of the deal which is too much and Ramos was basically expendable in our system and the other teams knew it. As far as the rest of those guys.... I don't have the numbers and I'm sure you will provide them, but have any of the guys that were suggested the Twins go after been better than Duensing since the trade deadline??

[Big Dave2]

How did I get owned again?

I try to look at reality versus somebody's far fetched opinions. If you don't understand how Capps has improved our closer position actually giving us a closer versus a journey-men set-up guy and improved our over all pitching staff putting Rausch back where he belongs there isn't much we can do for you guys!

Go Twins!

I happen to actually agree with you that Capps was a decent aquisition for the Twins but if you don't understand how you got owned there isn't much I can do for you!

[mrklean]

oswalt was never gonna come here and they wanted to much, Lee hasnt pitched well at all since going to texas and has been hurt and those players were rent a players at least we have capp through next season correct?

[jwmiller33]

oswalt was never gonna come here and they wanted to much, Lee hasnt pitched well at all since going to texas and has been hurt and those players were rent a players at least we have capp through next season correct?

Capps is arbitration eligible next year and the Twins essentially traded Ramos and Vesta for 1.5 seasons of Capps. Unfortunately part of his inflated perceived value includes his likely price-tag in arbitration, which is sure to rise from this year's $3.5 million salary to over $5 million (and perhaps well over $5 million) thanks to those same shiny-looking save totals. Next season the Twins will pay a premium for a quality setup man they perceive as something more because of a reliance on a flawed statistic and they gave up a good catching prospect for the right do that.

[jwmiller33]

some of you must think that i strongly dislike capps... which, although he is EXTREMELY shaky at times during save opps, is not true. i like the fact that the twins went out and made a trade to make our bullpen better. we are obviously a better team with an extra "good" (not great) arm in the bullpen. however, i will still stand by my opinion that we would have been better off to trade for a SP. sure, you guys can talk all you want about this guy being bad, or this guy has sucked since he got traded, or we would have never got that guy.. the fact of the matter is, neither you nor myself work in the front office for the twins and know EXACTLY what teams wanted for which guys... there are several different SPs we could have acquired that would have made our rotation much better... and as a result of trading for that SP, we would have moved one of our starters to the bullpen, thus making our bullpen better as well, thus we effectively killed two birds with one stone. we would have made our bullpen better AND our rotation... now i'm not going to say i know the inside scoop on what teams wanted for what players, but i can only wish the twins were more aggressive in their pursuit for a quality arm in our rotation. the fact that this year's market had many more buyers than sellers didn't help our cause one bit. but, the debate remains... is capps better than rauch? not really. are either of them better than nathan? no. is our bullpen better off with the acquisitions of two "closers"? yes. would i have liked to see a guy added to our starting rotation? yes.

the real question is going to be how does our starting rotation match up against the likes of the rays or texas in a 5 game series? i'll tell you one thing, i would MUCH rather have cliff lee on our team as opposed to facing him, regardless of how poor he has performed since being traded to texas. i can only hope that we can pull off some miracle and some how compete against the yankees for once in the post season, and what it comes down to is starting pitching. i dont care how good your bullpen is, if your starters get you in a 5+ run deficit to start the game, it is a very steep mountain to climb to get back into the game and how "good" the back end of your bullpen is doesnt really matter..

starting pitching wins championships

[soldoncass]

Pitching and defense wins championships.....NOT just starters. Our defense has been pretty GOOD, not GREAT, but good. Pitching has been GOOD, not GREAT, the second half. The one thing that I would like to see IMPROVE for the play-offs is some basic stuff....situational hitting. Hitting behind runners, bunting skills, base-stealing, sliding technique,etc. . Wish we had a little more speed also....can't teach that .

Capps was a GOOD addition, Fuentes also, but gotta be healthy. If we could have gotten a "Koufax" type as a starter ,it would have been GREAT ....not possible, but GREAT to think about. Teams don't give them up , without a HUGE RETURN. One assumption you made (about moving this "displaced starter" to the pen, makes our pen stronger)...is flawed. Any starter relegated to the pen, because he ISN'T pitching WELL is unlikely to HELP the PEN. Neither closer we have is better than Nathan WAS....WAS.... Nathan may NOT be as good as he WAS either. Uaually it takes 18-24 months after tommy-john surgery to get back to 100%. Nathan is getting older, so it remains to be seen how he recovers.