need advice with property dispute

[Steve Bakken]

In 1980 our family bought 20 acres of hunting land near Bemidji. The next year, a family bought the adjacent 20, built a house, and is still there. Both properties are sise to side about a half mile in from the highway and are acessed by a township road which ends where the two properties meet. From the end of this road, an old dirt logging trail continues, running between our two property lines, ending at an old gravel pit past our propert on public land. Over the years, this road has been used by countless underage drinkers on their way to party back at the gravel pit. It's also been used as a public garbage dump, as well as numerous other destructive activities. After many years of this, our neighbor and us decided to close the trail and post it. Public documents show the road ending at our property line, and the plat book shows the two properties adjacent to each other. It has never been maintained and there is no reference to it in either of the abstracts. Which presents another issue. If it is in fact private property, and someone is injured while going back there, can we be sued. Not something we wanted to find out. So we wrote the township a letter stating our intent, giving full access to law enforcement if they needed to use it. Now the towship claims the trail is public property and there has been an ongoing battle for the last five years. And the real kicker, is now last week they came out with the game warden and the sherrif, took down the signs and gate, and issued our neighbor a $130 ticket for obstructing a public roadway. Now i understand that not everyone is lucky enough to own their own hunting land, and the purpose is not to keep other sportsmen out. If a father and son asked us permission to use the road to do some hunting, they would be more than welcome. We just wanna have controll over some of the damage being done back there, and over the whole liability thing. I'd love to be able to hire Johnny Cochrain, but we're just average people who don't have a ton of money set aside for something like this. Is there anything we can do or is this a situation where the bully with the biggest muscles wins.

[Tator2k]

The short answer I've seen in the past is the County comes out and extends the road and improvements to the 'logging trail' and marks it as an official county road and bills all adjacent land owners for the improvements.

[motley man]

I know of many roads that were closed by the land owners by going to DNR and townships that are the same as you describe. Check with DNR and county to see if it is on records as public or private. County property records will show this, and plat map.

[pushbutton]

i would start by going to the county's planning/zoning office and have them show you where there is a recorded public right of way....if they can't produce.....let the county attorney know what is going on, have them explain the situation to the sheriff and then go back and have a polite but firm talk with the township! do not know specifics of the area, but sometimes the good old boy network is pretty strong and you just have to stand up to them.

[jeffreyd]

Is there other access to the public land beside your logging trail?

[gregg52]

not sure the lay of the land

but post everything around the road

and like said above there must be some kind od survey platt

for the section land

you and your nieghbor might hafta to pay to have it re-surveyed

and go from there

my guess is who ever previously owed the land the pit is on gave some one permission to get to the pit to crush in it and over the yrs the township

people just figured it was a road to the pit

and they probably want to keep access to the pit for future gravel

to build or pave roads etc etc

[delcecchi]

You might also want to read up on "cartways" which can be established by town boards to provide access to landlocked property. It is part of minnesota law.

Also the principle of adverse possession might come into play.

[Steve Bakken]

Yes and no, Jeffreyd. There are hundreds of miles of state forest behind us and there are roads coming in from the other direction, but there is about a half mile hike to reach the gravel pit, which by the way is now depleted of any gravel and would serve no future use for construction

[Surface Tension]

Steve, who owns the gravel pit? You said there is public land behind you. That could be listed as State, County, Tax Forfeit, Township, or even Federal. A plat book would tell you which of the above.

At some point the pit had to be owned most likely by either the County, Township or Privately owned. IMO the access between the two properties to that pit had to be legit at one point and I don't know how that could change. I've seen this same situation challenged regarding boat access and the Township won't and shouldn't give in.

If the township owns this then I would talk to them. They aren't going to want to lock up access to the "public" land but if its a party spot for minors or illegal activity they might patrol it. Best you might hope for is a sign asking users be respectful of property owners.

I know for sure they won't allow you to be a gate keeper as the public should not have to ask to use public property.

Good Luck and let us know how it works out.

[Ed Carlson]

The road may have been a part of a temporary easement granted for access while the pit was being actively mined, it may have long since expired, and hence the road access rights has too.

Do some digging at the township and county level first on who was allowed access to that pit and when. If it leads to state forest lands, the MN DNR may also have info on what the road status is at present?

[Hoffer]

Johny Cochran died in 2005.

[Black_Bay]

Johny Cochran died in 2005.

If the pit don't fit, you must acquit. Ok that was bad.

As someone wrote the road/path most likely allowed access to the gravel pit. Find out who owns the pit.

[dogs]

"Over the years, this road has been used by countless" that is not good for you. there is a couple of court decisions that say if the public has been using a piece of land uncontested by owners it can become public. The fact you posted it and made fact you don't want this to continue is hopefully in time. But the law being Law there is no right or wrong just stronger arguments at the time of a trial. for your sake I hope you are a local or you will probably get "home towned" when fighting it. Plus if it the only way into other property, public or private, I think you screwed.

[Tom7227]

I think most of the advice you're getting here that give a conclsion is worth about what you've paid for it.

Go to the county office building and start in the real estate office and see what you can find out. Plat maps, title documents etc should give you a decent idea of who owns what. The prosecutor is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you broke some law and maybe he/she will do all the work for you and figure things out for a trial.

[SpitnArgueDuckClub*]

So what happened with the ticket? Did you neighbor pay it? That may be the way you could have your day in court, of course if your neighbor is the only that has his name on the ticket he may or may not want to push the issue. Until then I would have the warden (who issued the ticket) on speed dial and report to him any trespassers, underage partiers, and illegal activities. After all if you have to live with a right of way road you would be better off on good terms with the warden.

[jeffreyd]

there is also a ton of records online. you might be able to use the info you have for the land you own to see who the owner is. the one thing that still remains is that if it is a "town road" then should it be maintained by the county or city? Look on google earth and see if it shows the road between the property and if it is labeled as such. that would be the quickest answer. good luck

[dogs]

"And the real kicker, is now last week they came out with the game warden and the sherrif, took down the signs and gate, and issued our neighbor a $130 ticket for obstructing a public roadway."

More I think about it your land description and your neighbors should point out any gap or roadway. The fact it has been used by the public does not automatically make it the publics, have you been paying taxes on a description of 20 acres showing no R/W. If your descriptions on record shows no gap or taking, your neighbor in contesting the ticket should be shown the document that described the public taking/road order. If your neighbor does not contest the ticket it would the first step in giving up your rights to the land for you will admit/agree there is a road there. Basically there has to be a record of the road on file not just a map, but with that said the county can start the process by which they can take the land for reason of past practice of public usage, then it goes on record and your exclusive rights to the land. I worked for years for county road authorities/800 pound gorilla and many in high up positions do act as if they can do what they want and screw the process. They justify their actions with the philosophy that they are saving the public money by short cutting the process.

good luck

'

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I think most of the advice you're getting here that give a conclsion is worth about what you've paid for it.

Go to the county office building and start in the real estate office and see what you can find out. Plat maps, title documents etc should give you a decent idea of who owns what. The prosecutor is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you broke some law and maybe he/she will do all the work for you and figure things out for a trial.

You should be able to hire an attorney for ~$1,000 or less to handle this for you. For someone knowledgeable in the legal site of real estate, this should be a piece of cake, and not too expensive if your neighbor is willing to split the bill.

[Steve Foss]

There are several perspectives here that are on point, but you won't know which one fits your case until you research things or hire someone to do it for you.

[Cads]

From what I remember, a road that is used by the public becomes a permanent easement after 10 years. This would also be true if this road ran through your property. I am sure there are loopholes in the system.

[Jackpine Rob]

Lots of advice here, but as Tom says, you get what you pay for.

The bottom line is that you are facing a really gray area of property law - the courts have been all over the map on such things. Appellate decisions aren't a heck of a lot of help, since the District Court judges pay little attention to such things when the Township/County says "I want it to go this way." Complicating matters, very few cases like this ever make it to the Minnesota Supreme Court for decision - since no one wants to spend the money. Most folks opt out and travel the road of least resistance.

If it was me......

If I was handed a ticket for obstruction, I would show up and demand.... DEMAND that the public right of way be proven. If there is nothing in your abstract(s) showing an easement, there is at least a colorable claim. In other words, you ain't out of line in saying "NO ONE GOES HERE".

I would also ask the Court for injunctive relief, allowing me to maintain the signs on the private property I am paying taxes on.

Its up to the authorities to prove their case. They have to show the document creating the easement and documentation that the road has been used and improved and maintained as a public right of way.

Like I said, this is a gray area, and if the township/county can show that they have used and maintained the route, you might just be SOL.

10 years isn't getting it done on an adverse possession. The rules are much more complicated, and require some professional (paid) assistance to sort through.