Agree or Disagree with pulling Slowey with the no hitter going?

[PierBridge]

Quote:

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm

Did you miss the part where Slowey injured his elbow and had a cortisone shot along with missing a start all within the last couple weeks?

[DonBo]

Did you miss the part where Slowey injured his elbow and had a cortisone shot along with missing a start all within the last couple weeks?

No use screwing up a perfectly good argument with facts.

[harvey lee]

Common sense does not work for some in this subject.

[Double D]

I also agree with taking him out. There are no extra points for a nono, just the same win we got.

With that post(and because I have extra time tonight), my unofficial count on this thread so far is:

22 - agree to take him out

8 - disagree and say leave him in

DD

[TR21HP]

So Mitty, High school pitchers throw more than that and they don't get hurt. Better check the facts before making a ridiculous statement like that. There are more and more high school players getting Tommy John surgery than ever before and the high school league says it's because of the number of pitches being thrown. Team first, individual awards after that.

[thatoneguy]

Have any of the pitch count proponents bothered to read Bill James' "Abuse and Durability" as I suggested?

It's a fairly exhaustive statistical analysis done by the god of sabermetrics that *proves* from a long-term, statistical, factual basis, that pitch counts DO NOT enhance a Major League pitcher's durability, nor do they prevent injury? Or that it seems that, in point of fact, the opposite is true?

[harvey lee]

Forget about the pitch count, he had an injury and had cortisone to help.

What is there to not understand that he should not push the issue to possibly reinjure it???????

I don't understand why so many would like to see a personal goal made over pitching for the remainder of the season and helping the team go into the play-offs??

Please explain this to me as I do not understand why one would take that chance.

[zepman]

I've had cortisone shots in my ankle, shoulder and knee...and never missed a day of practice or game because of it...he was out there pitching so he was 100% good to go. If he wasn't the Twins wouldn't have had him out there (see Justin Morneau). The injury played no part in why he was taken out...he had reached the max pitch count Gardy would let him or any other starter pitch. That is my beef with the whole issue...love Gardy...love the Twins...100% disagree with this call. In this special circumstance...he should have been allowed to finish what he started.

[SledNeck]

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm if they would have left him in to try for the ultimate pitching goal,you guys have been listening way to much about this 100 pitch bull [PoorWordUsage] ask someone who knows like Nolan Ryan the BEST ever says its all a bunch of [PoorWordUsage],I have no idea where it came from but its [PoorWordUsage] hell high school pitchers throw more than that,I dont see alot of them hurting and the pros have a hell of lot better trainers.

the ultimate single game pitching goal is the perfect game

[harvey lee]

Yes, lets let him pitch and watch him not throw a no hitter. Anyone who knows baseball could see in the 7th he was getting tired as his pitches were not there like the other innings. Hit a runner but that ok as his pitch count is only 106 and his injury would never return.

LOL. This is nothing more than crazy talk.

[Big Dave2]

I've had cortisone shots in my ankle, shoulder and knee...and never missed a day of practice or game because of it...he was out there pitching so he was 100% good to go. If he wasn't the Twins wouldn't have had him out there (see Justin Morneau). The injury played no part in why he was taken out...he had reached the max pitch count Gardy would let him or any other starter pitch. That is my beef with the whole issue...love Gardy...love the Twins...100% disagree with this call. In this special circumstance...he should have been allowed to finish what he started.

Of course he was 100%, but the idea is to keep him at 100%.

There was not none way in He11 that he was going to complete the no hitter. Not a single chance. If you want to win a game you go with the statistics and the statistics say that a pitcher who has 109 pitches in the 7th inning and labored to get out of that inning is probably better off getting out of the game in favor of one of the best bullpens in the league. A bullpen who was not used the night before and needed to get some guys some work.

Its too bad to see the state of sports has become such a selfish mentality that so many people would rather see a single player make a relatively meaningless personal accomplishment rather than be happy that the TEAM won the game.

[DTro]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

[jwmiller33]

I will say this, how many managers could take a team like the Twins, and get to 1st place with the injuries they have had all season?

Gardy can coach and has proved it. He is in it for the long haul and not one no hit game.

Go Twins.

i'm with ya on this on harvey. however, i would also like to add that i have heard terry francona is getting some talks of manager of the year as well... the injuries he has had to deal with this year:

-perdroia (wrist)

-jed lowrie (mono)

-daisuke (diceK-neck)

-jd drew (neck)

-mike cameron (kidney stones)

-beckett (back)

-victor martinez (foot and thumb, two separate times)

-ellsbury (ribs)

-youkillis (back)

-hermida (ribs)

-mike lowell (hip)

-perdroia AGAIN (broken foot)

-clay buchholz (hamstring)

-variteck (broken foot)

-adrian beltre (hamstring)

-kevin youkillis AGAIN-outfor season muscle tear in thumb

-hideki okajima (hamstring)

and now most recently, ellsbury re-aggravated his fractured ribs. basically, the red sox have had to deal with a lot more injuries than the twins have, while at the same time, maintaining a record [in the toughest division in baseball] that would be good enough to be in the playoff race in almost every other division in baseball. just the fact that the red sox have remained competitive and are still in the playoff hunt (relatively speaking/wild card) is amazing considering the amount of injuries they have had to deal with this year... if they were in the AL central or west, they would be in first place or 1-3 games back all year long. i'd say going 67-52 in the AL east with those types of injuries is much more impressive than going 68-50 in the AL central with the injuries we have had to deal with

i don't think gardy is going to get manager of the year, even tho i want him to

[Canon Guy]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

How many times have the Twins used 8 pitchers in a game?

To me it's too bad people just can't enjoy the game for what it is,a game.

[going4it]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

Not true Dunsing did it the night before all by himself due to low pitch count. Simple stuff there.

[PierBridge]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

Not the book but the numbers. It's a proven fact that bringing in fresh arms and using the proper match-ups, IE: lefty versus lefty, righty versus righty you are better off in the long wrong versus leaving in the same starter who batters adjust too over the course of the game. Particularly starting pitchers with higher pitch counts.

Thats why ALL teams do it this way!

Middle and late "setup" relief pitching has come along way since the day of Egotistical pitchers like Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven. It was a position back then that nobody wanted to play or pursue but now with the insane money that all players get and the stats to prove it works you have a lot of quality live arms now in the bullpen so it makes sense to bring them in now more than ever.

Other then the obvious situation with Slowey which is related to injury or potential injury for the most part its "pitch count" more about keeping your pitchers fresh for the entire season and not so much about the injury protection.

Do you guys really think Pavano and Baker were lying when Gardy asked them if they wanted to pitch on there normal pitching day versus the option of having another day of rest? They took the rest option for a reason because they needed it!

Good try though!

[lakesbison]

at least let Slowey throw batting practice pitches in the 8th, who cares if he gives up a HR, it was 4-0! what a joke gardy is, watch, now that his lil boyfriend nikki punto is back, he'll play him.

punto=$4 million, have fun at your job tomorrow knowing that fact!!

[harvey lee]

I would like to see your credentials for coaching lakebison.

[Born2Fish]

at least let Slowey throw batting practice pitches in the 8th, who cares if he gives up a HR, it was 4-0! what a joke gardy is, watch, now that his lil boyfriend nikki punto is back, he'll play him.

punto=$4 million, have fun at your job tomorrow knowing that fact!!

And what if he gives up a few hits before that homerun, then the game is 4-3? Then the bullpen comes in and give up 2 like they did? Twins lose 5-4. Then Slowey loses his confidence, and his next start pitches like carp? Instead of taking him out when they did, keeping his confidence high by throwing a no-no through 7, and getting out there his next start with that confidence that he can do that.

Who cares what Punto makes...4 million or 20,000. Thats not my decision to make. I will have fun at my job regardless of that fact.

[TR21HP]

Crossing sports but still relevant, to quote Herm Edwards,"You play to win the game."

[thatoneguy]

Pier is hilarious. He doesn't try to be, but he is. "Egotistical" pitchers like Blyleven and Ryan? Wow...what little credibility you might have had went out the window with that comment.

[Big Dave2]

Pier is hilarious. He doesn't try to be, but he is. "Egotistical" pitchers like Blyleven and Ryan? Wow...what little credibility you might have had went out the window with that comment.

You don't think that pretty much all professional athletes are egotistical? There aren't too many who aren't. I like Blylevin but if you don't think he is egotistical you must not watch the Twins TV broadcasts.

[JacobMHD]

Let's not confuse confidence and ego.

[Duffman]

Let's not confuse confidence and ego.

Are they different???

[Big Dave2]

Let's not confuse confidence and ego.

There must be a lot of guys who post on this forum who have tons of "confidence".

[Harmonica Bear]

Good one! Not much.

I think Gardy was in a no-win situation regardless of what he does. I think the big decision came down to prior to the elbow issue.cortizone shot/missed start, and wasn't Slowey cruising through 7 innings against TB and melted down in the 8th (pitch count 114). I am not biggest beleiver in pitch counts myself, but I do beleive that some/many/most pitchers run out of gas and/or stuff at some point. 140/130/120/110/100 pitches what have you. Gardy made the right call, prior tender elbow, prior late innning meltdowns, I thnk it was painfully, easy decision, if that make any sense. just my 2 cents.

[PierBridge]

Good one! Not much.

I think Gardy was in a no-win situation regardless of what he does. I think the big decision came down to prior to the elbow issue.cortizone shot/missed start, and wasn't Slowey cruising through 7 innings against TB and melted down in the 8th (pitch count 114). I am not biggest beleiver in pitch counts myself, but I do beleive that some/many/most pitchers run out of gas and/or stuff at some point. 140/130/120/110/100 pitches what have you. Gardy made the right call, prior tender elbow, prior late innning meltdowns, I thnk it was painfully, easy decision, if that make any sense. just my 2 cents.

Bingo!

I knew the Bert comment would get things rolling!...

[JacobMHD]

Confidence is just a part of one's ego. The individual's ego is the perception their self.

They may not be much different, but I think that a person can be very confident without having an overpowering ego. Just my opinion.

[Nick Kuhn]

I'm surprised no one has touched on this.

I have no problem with him pulling Slowey. BUT, the least he could have done is given the no hitter the best chance possible. Rauch even on his best nights usually gives up at least one hit in an inning. Why not use Crain out of the pen first, as opponents are batting less than 0.100 off of him as of late? With a complete game shutout the night before it certainly wasn't because Crain was overworked. Then bring in Capps for the 9th. There's no guarantee that we'd have still gotten a no hitter, but at least put guys out there that you believe to have the best "no hit" stuff.

[Mudcutter]

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm if they would have left him in to try for the ultimate pitching goal,you guys have been listening way to much about this 100 pitch bull [PoorWordUsage] ask someone who knows like Nolan Ryan the BEST ever says its all a bunch of [PoorWordUsage],I have no idea where it came from but its [PoorWordUsage] hell high school pitchers throw more than that,I dont see alot of them hurting and the pros have a hell of lot better trainers.

You really think Ryan is the best ever??? Your talking to Bill James stat wise. Ryan barely had .500 record and leads the majors all time in walks. Walter Johnson,, who pitched more than half of his career in the live ball era,, is the best in the live ball era. You do the math by looking at the stats,, and might I add,, the Senators were about as good as the teams Ryan pitched on. It's not even close,, so when someone calls Ryan , the best ever,, I read on with much caution.

Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB Awards

1966 19 NYM NL 0 1 .000 15.00 2 1 0 0 0 0 3.0 5 5 5 1 3 1 6 0 0 1 17 27 2.667 15.0 3.0 9.0 18.0 2.00

1968 21 NYM NL 6 9 .400 3.09 21 18 1 3 0 0 134.0 93 50 46 12 75 4 133 4 0 7 559 98 1.254 6.2 0.8 5.0 8.9 1.77

1969 22 NYM NL 6 3 .667 3.53 25 10 4 2 0 1 89.1 60 38 35 3 53 3 92 1 3 1 375 104 1.265 6.0 0.3 5.3 9.3 1.74

1970 23 NYM NL 7 11 .389 3.42 27 19 4 5 2 1 131.2 86 59 50 10 97 2 125 4 0 8 570 118 1.390 5.9 0.7 6.6 8.5 1.29

1971 24 NYM NL 10 14 .417 3.97 30 26 1 3 0 0 152.0 125 78 67 8 116 4 137 15 1 6 705 86 1.586 7.4 0.5 6.9 8.1 1.18

1972 25 CAL AL 19 16 .543 2.28 39 39 0 20 9 0 284.0 166 80 72 14 157 4 329 10 0 18 1154 128 1.137 5.3 0.4 5.0 10.4 2.10 AS,CYA-8,MVP-30

1973 26 CAL AL 21 16 .568 2.87 41 39 2 26 4 1 326.0 238 113 104 18 162 2 383 7 0 15 1355 123 1.227 6.6 0.5 4.5 10.6 2.36 AS,CYA-2,MVP-17

1974 27 CAL AL 22 16 .579 2.89 42 41 1 26 3 0 332.2 221 127 107 18 202 3 367 9 0 9 1392 118 1.272 6.0 0.5 5.5 9.9 1.82 CYA-3,MVP-14

1975 28 CAL AL 14 12 .538 3.45 28 28 0 10 5 0 198.0 152 90 76 13 132 0 186 7 0 12 864 102 1.434 6.9 0.6 6.0 8.5 1.41 AS

1976 29 CAL AL 17 18 .486 3.36 39 39 0 21 7 0 284.1 193 117 106 13 183 2 327 5 2 5 1196 99 1.322 6.1 0.4 5.8 10.4 1.79

1977 30 CAL AL 19 16 .543 2.77 37 37 0 22 4 0 299.0 198 110 92 12 204 7 341 9 3 21 1272 141 1.344 6.0 0.4 6.1 10.3 1.67 AS,CYA-3,MVP-24

1978 31 CAL AL 10 13 .435 3.72 31 31 0 14 3 0 234.2 183 106 97 12 148 7 260 3 2 13 1008 98 1.411 7.0 0.5 5.7 10.0 1.76

1979 32 CAL AL 16 14 .533 3.60 34 34 0 17 5 0 222.2 169 104 89 15 114 3 223 6 0 9 937 113 1.271 6.8 0.6 4.6 9.0 1.96 AS

1980 33 HOU NL 11 10 .524 3.35 35 35 0 4 2 0 233.2 205 100 87 10 98 1 200 3 1 10 982 98 1.297 7.9 0.4 3.8 7.7 2.04

1981 34 HOU NL 11 5 .688 1.69 21 21 0 5 3 0 149.0 99 34 28 2 68 1 140 1 2 16 605 195 1.121 6.0 0.1 4.1 8.5 2.06 AS,CYA-4,MVP-16

1982 35 HOU NL 16 12 .571 3.16 35 35 0 10 3 0 250.1 196 100 88 20 109 3 245 8 2 18 1050 105 1.218 7.0 0.7 3.9 8.8 2.25

1983 36 HOU NL 14 9 .609 2.98 29 29 0 5 2 0 196.1 134 74 65 9 101 3 183 4 1 5 804 114 1.197 6.1 0.4 4.6 8.4 1.81 CYA-9

1984 37 HOU NL 12 11 .522 3.04 30 30 0 5 2 0 183.2 143 78 62 12 69 2 197 4 3 6 760 109 1.154 7.0 0.6 3.4 9.7 2.86

1985 38 HOU NL 10 12 .455 3.80 35 35 0 4 0 0 232.0 205 108 98 12 95 8 209 9 2 14 983 91 1.293 8.0 0.5 3.7 8.1 2.20 AS

1986 39 HOU NL 12 8 .600 3.34 30 30 0 1 0 0 178.0 119 72 66 14 82 5 194 4 0 15 729 107 1.129 6.0 0.7 4.1 9.8 2.37

1987 40 HOU NL 8 16 .333 2.76 34 34 0 0 0 0 211.2 154 75 65 14 87 2 270 4 2 10 873 142 1.139 6.5 0.6 3.7 11.5 3.10 CYA-5

1988 41 HOU NL 12 11 .522 3.52 33 33 0 4 1 0 220.0 186 98 86 18 87 6 228 7 7 10 930 94 1.241 7.6 0.7 3.6 9.3 2.62

1989 42 TEX AL 16 10 .615 3.20 32 32 0 6 2 0 239.1 162 96 85 17 98 3 301 9 1 19 988 124 1.086 6.1 0.6 3.7 11.3 3.07 AS,CYA-5,MVP-23

1990 43 TEX AL 13 9 .591 3.44 30 30 0 5 2 0 204.0 137 86 78 18 74 2 232 7 1 9 818 115 1.034 6.0 0.8 3.3 10.2 3.14 MVP-25

1991 44 TEX AL 12 6 .667 2.91 27 27 0 2 2 0 173.0 102 58 56 12 72 0 203 5 0 8 683 140 1.006 5.3 0.6 3.7 10.6 2.82

1992 45 TEX AL 5 9 .357 3.72 27 27 0 2 0 0 157.1 138 75 65 9 69 0 157 12 0 9 675 103 1.316 7.9 0.5 3.9 9.0 2.28

1993 46 TEX AL 5 5 .500 4.88 13 13 0 0 0 0 66.1 54 47 36 5 40 0 46 1 0 3 291 86 1.417 7.3 0.7 5.4 6.2 1.15

27 Seasons 324 292 .526 3.19 807 773 13 222 61 3 5386.0 3923 2178 1911 321 *2795* 78 *5714* 158 33 277 22575 112 1.247 *6.6* 0.5 4.7 9.5 2.04

162 Game Avg. 14 13 .526 3.19 35 33 1 10 3 0 232 169 94 82 14 120 3 246 7 1 12 972 112 1.247 6.6 0.5 4.7 9.5 2.04

BIG TRAIN---

Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB Awards

1907 19 WSH AL 5 9 .357 1.88 14 12 2 11 2 0 110.1 100 35 23 1 20 71 2 0 4 432 129 1.088 8.2 0.1 1.6 5.8 3.55

1908 20 WSH AL 14 14 .500 1.65 36 30 6 23 6 1 256.1 194 75 47 0 53 160 11 1 13 985 139 0.964 6.8 0.0 1.9 5.6 3.02

1909 21 WSH AL 13 25 .342 2.22 40 36 3 27 4 1 296.1 247 112 73 1 84 164 15 0 12 1219 109 1.117 7.5 0.0 2.6 5.0 1.95

1910 22 WSH AL 25 17 .595 1.36 45 42 3 38 8 1 370.0 262 92 56 1 76 313 13 0 21 1367 183 0.914 6.4 0.0 1.8 7.6 4.12

1911 23 WSH AL 25 13 .658 1.90 40 37 3 36 6 1 322.1 292 119 68 8 70 207 8 0 17 1306 173 1.123 8.2 0.2 2.0 5.8 2.96 MVP-5

1912 24 WSH AL 33 12 .733 1.39 50 37 13 34 7 2 369.0 259 89 57 2 76 303 16 0 11 1413 243 0.908 6.3 0.0 1.9 7.4 3.99 MVP-3

1913 25 WSH AL 36 7 .837 1.14 48 36 10 29 11 2 346.0 232 56 44 9 38 243 9 0 2 1271 259 0.780 6.0 0.2 1.0 6.3 6.39 MVP-1

1914 26 WSH AL 28 18 .609 1.72 51 40 9 33 9 1 371.2 287 88 71 3 74 225 11 1 14 1406 164 0.971 6.9 0.1 1.8 5.4 3.04

1915 27 WSH AL 27 13 .675 1.55 47 39 8 35 7 4 336.2 258 83 58 1 56 203 19 0 7 1280 191 0.933 6.9 0.0 1.5 5.4 3.63

1916 28 WSH AL 25 20 .556 1.90 48 38 10 36 3 1 369.2 290 105 78 0 82 228 9 0 9 1410 147 1.006 7.1 0.0 2.0 5.6 2.78

1917 29 WSH AL 23 16 .590 2.21 47 34 12 30 8 3 326.0 248 105 80 3 68 188 14 0 7 1255 120 0.969 6.8 0.1 1.9 5.2 2.76

1918 30 WSH AL 23 13 .639 1.27 39 29 10 29 8 3 326.0 241 71 46 2 70 17 162 8 0 8 1261 214 0.954 6.7 0.1 1.9 4.5 2.31

1919 31 WSH AL 20 14 .588 1.49 39 29 10 27 7 2 290.1 235 73 48 0 51 147 7 1 4 1131 215 0.985 7.3 0.0 1.6 4.6 2.88

1920 32 WSH AL 8 10 .444 3.13 21 15 6 12 4 3 143.2 135 68 50 5 27 11 78 5 1 5 583 119 1.128 8.5 0.3 1.7 4.9 2.89

1921 33 WSH AL 17 14 .548 3.51 35 32 2 25 1 1 264.0 265 122 103 7 92 19 143 2 0 7 1119 117 1.352 9.0 0.2 3.1 4.9 1.55

1922 34 WSH AL 15 16 .484 2.99 41 31 9 23 4 4 280.0 283 115 93 8 99 11 105 7 0 3 1195 130 1.364 9.1 0.3 3.2 3.4 1.06 MVP-17

1923 35 WSH AL 17 12 .586 3.48 42 34 8 18 3 4 261.0 263 112 101 9 73 9 130 20 0 2 1096 109 1.287 9.1 0.3 2.5 4.5 1.78 MVP-20

1924 36 WSH AL 23 7 .767 2.72 38 38 0 20 6 0 277.2 233 97 84 10 77 10 158 10 0 4 1148 149 1.116 7.6 0.3 2.5 5.1 2.05 MVP-1

1925 37 WSH AL 20 7 .741 3.07 30 29 1 16 3 0 229.0 217 95 78 7 78 17 108 7 0 1 967 139 1.288 8.5 0.3 3.1 4.2 1.38

1926 38 WSH AL 15 16 .484 3.63 33 33 0 22 2 0 260.2 259 120 105 13 73 125 5 0 2 1101 107 1.274 8.9 0.4 2.5 4.3 1.71

1927 39 WSH AL 5 6 .455 5.10 18 15 2 7 1 0 107.2 113 70 61 7 26 48 7 0 1 460 80 1.291 9.4 0.6 2.2 4.0 1.85

21 Seasons 417 279 .599 2.17 802 666 127 531 *110* 34 5914.1 4913 1902 1424 97 1363 94 3509 205 4 154 23405 147 1.061 7.5 0.1 2.1 5.3 2.57

162 Game Avg. 19 13 .599 2.17 37 31 6 25 5 2 274 228 88 66 4 63 163 9 0 7 1084 147 1.061 7.5 0.1 2.1 5.3 2.57