Bemdji Pioneer - Netting Back

[pike doctor]

It seems like I read this post about 3 times a year. I have never posted anything because I always thought "what's the point?" I am finally annoyed enough that I would like to share my thoughts. Please don't take offense. I am going to try and present a couple points of view.

#1 I am sick of the guilt trip that I am supposed to feel for being a white, European descent male. My relatives didn't come until right before WWI. They did't force anyone onto a reservation or make any crooked deals with the natives. They didn't shoot buffalo off the trains. They came and bought farms and went to work. But I am supposed to feel bad about what a bunch of furtrading dinks did over 150 years ago. I had no control over it. Leave me and my money alone. Quit using what a handful of people did long before my time as a justifcation to punish me!

#2 If the band is an independent nation then why don't they act like it? US taxpayers subsidies a large portion of the Red Lake band. For example, US taxpayers pay over $25 million dollars every year for the Red Lake schools. That data comes straight from the MN dept of Ed. I believe that more people would leave the band alone if they were paying for everything themselves. It is a tough pill for the average joe to swallow when the band gets treated differently with joe's money.

#3 Band members aren't the only ones that need to eat a lot of fish for substinence, but a white person that does it is a poacher. Some people actually need a couple extra fish to survive, although I would say that the vast majority don't. Myself included.

#4 I am not a religious person, and being in the outdoors and enjoying it is about as religious as I get. If I were to say that I were practicing my religion and heritage by throwing in a net I would be thrown in jail and have my things taken.

#5 White people need take their share of the blame. I have ran across way too many meathogs in my day and they do more to destroy our resources than anything. A part of me is happy that we cant get to most of red lake and build our cabins, fertilize our lawns, pollute the lake and leave garbage on the ice.

#6 Until something is changed there will always be the chance that the band will net. Oh well. That's how it is set up, and they would be foolish not to take advantage of their relationship with the state. If you want it changed, it needs to be done through the capital. I would much rather see us have a good relationship and each side know what the other is doing than continuing to bicker with each other. When the cooperation stops the lake will suffer again.

#7 There will always be strong opinions on both sides and few people will change their mind. I try to do my part, however small it maybe be by doing something positive every time I visit the lake. Pick up some trash, handle fish carefully, and call TIP when you see something illegal going on.

I just hope that someday I can come up there 50 years from now with my grandkids and say that the fishing is as good as it ever was. And then tell them the story of the lake. Hopefully by then the two sides will be getting along a little better.

[Glockwinger]

Good insight Pike doctor. My family came here around WWII to escape Nazi Germany, and I have also used your reasoned response to explain my lack of white guilt.

[upnorth]

My ancestors too came to this country in the early 1900s and had no part of what was happened 150 or so years ago, so do I feel guilty about what happened back then, no. Although I don't feel "White Guilt", I believe we should honor the agreement/contract that was made with the Indians way back then. Yes times have changed, but just cuz we don't like it now, doesn't necessarily mean we need to change the contents of that agreement. The agreement was good for the White Folks back then and not so good for the Indians, now it seems like the deal is not as bad for them, we want to change it?

I say let them live their lives. We look at the lake and see recreation, they look at the lake and see a way of life and a way to sustain that way of life. Just because they have a different way of looking at it doesn't mean they have it wrong and should change to our way of thinking.

[The Donk]

Yep, I agree to let the current situation run its course. The proverbial ball is in their court, and they have the knowledge to know what they should do with it. Whether or not they do the right thing, is up to them. Would I like to fish LRL? Sure, who wouldnt? But I also have the respect to not hunt on my neighbors property unless they let me.

On a side note, the reservation leaders are probably well aware what would happen if they let it get out of control again, I'm sure the DNR would be reluctant to restock again without some more "assurances"

[Jim Panfish Uran]

I think you make a good point pike doctor, you weren't too condescending and it seemed well thought out. But I'm sure the last thing on the Red Lakers mind is your "white guilt". Any of the tribes including mine don't want to make you feel guilty because of what happened. But know this, just because your relatives didn't come over to this country originally inhabited by the "natives" until WWI doesn't mean all was said and done by then. It wasn't until 1924 we were even considered citizens, look into the 1954 termination and relocation act, look into the Miriam Report from 1928, You might found out HOW your relatives aquired the land that they farm on. Also remember that these injustices didn't happen THAT long ago. Everyone seems to think it was hundreds of years ago.

[cbrooks]

I think that most people do respect the tribes rights. I just don't think that netting fish is the only way to make money off there fishery. Maybe its more traditional, I don't know?

[kelly-p]

A newspaper writer called me today for some info. He is going to do a story and knowing him he will have all the info from all the sources he can find. When the story comes out I'll put a link to it here or copy it here. He has a good history of keeping up with URL so I'm looking forward to the story. Maybe just not what it will tell us.

Also people need to know that the last time the Red Lakes walleyes crashed the warning signs were there and known about in I believe 1978 or 1979. Nothing was done for over a decade.

[shaky legs2]

Steve, we all know the answer to the questions you posed. Maybe my post wasn't worded quite the way I wanted. What I was trying to say is the collapse of the walleye fishery on URL shouldn't be blamed on just one group of people just like the recent housing market collapse in our country wasn't the result of one group of people or set of circumstances. What the two situations do have in common is greed. The netting of the lake had a definite impact but day-trippers and over-limits by hook and line fisherman were also quite common back in the 60's to the 80's, I witnessed some of this as a kid back in the 60's fishing the lake with my dad. Resteraunt owners, private individuals and clubs/organizations were all in the market for a cheap source of fish for their menues, private parties and club functions.

The law is clear on the matter regarding who controls what on the lake and until or if the law is changed we must abide by it. It does no good to bash the other side as some do. I would hope that people on both sides who have a conscience and good memory of what happened will work together to see that history does not repeat itself.

[Red_Eye]

Quote:

The bootlegged/blackmarketed walleyes is what will kill the lake. Remember that the people buying the bootlegged fish are stealing from everyone of us that fish in MN just as if they were breaking into our homes and stealing our TV’s.

I suggest we focus on who the real enemy really is as Kelly suggested in an earlier post.

Let's say as an example. East side fish + West and lower side fish = Bootlegged fish. Who then is our enemy and who should we put our focus!!!!

[Hookey]

Leechbait

I wouldn't be too quick to agree with pike doctor. On all points. He states he is free from guilt because his family arrived after the land was taken from the Indians and any 'deals' were made.

Does this mean only those related to early settlers are accountable and 'should feel guilty' yet his relatives are free to fish lakes and roam woods that were 'aquired' from the Tribes free from guilt or responsibility ?

Because he did not kill the cow and steal the meat he is free to enjoy the beef without guilt ? It is not that easy...

I am not saying anyone needs to feel guilty what was done years ago we can't control but sometimes you have to honor agreements made be those who came before you.

The only way to save Red is if both sides continue to work together and not point fingers of guilt or spew hatred.

[The Donk]

I don't feel one bit guilty about my ancestry as my forefather was part of the inital surveying of Minnesota, and bought land from the government in 1862, 4 years after becoming statehood. Why should I?? The Sioux uprising forced my great-great-grandfather and his family from his farm for 3 months, basically ruining a whole year of crop for them, and the indians that came to the door for food were fed by my great-great-grandmother.

Why should we feel guilty? I don't get it. They respected life then, and never killed anyone. There are stories that in the winter, they would wake up to mounds of snow in front of the farm, and my g-g-grandma knitted wool for the indians who would get up and shake the snow off.

Its called living and working together. Respecting each other and what they have.

[pike doctor]

Does this mean only those related to early settlers are accountable and 'should feel guilty' yet his relatives are free to fish lakes and roam woods that were 'aquired' from the Tribes free from guilt or responsibility ?

Because he did not kill the cow and steal the meat he is free to enjoy the beef without guilt ? It is not that easy...

I am not saying anyone needs to feel guilty what was done years ago we can't control but sometimes you have to honor agreements made be those who came before you.

Why should anyone feel any guilty? The lands were sold and an agreement was made. Stick to the agreement. When a person sells land or a house they dont get to stay there. It becomes the property of the next person and they are free to do what they want with it as long as they follow the law.

As for the agreement being honored could someone please show me where the treaties say that taxpayers in 2009 need to subsidies the tribes to the tune of a couple hundred million dollars a year? If the band is so independent then why dont they act like it and refuse the state and federal money?

I equate the situation of the state and the bands like teenagers and their parents. When teenagers (the bands) want something they go to the parents (the state) and ask. But most of the time the teenagers act like they are too cool for the parents and don't like to be told what to do. So they rebell and they get in a pinch, and then they go back to the parents and the cycle starts again.

Back to the original point of this whole post. I think the band should be able to take fish however they want on their side. But I also believe if they want to be so "independent" they should act like it and refuse the government's money. I am more than confident that their leaders will not let band members destroy their portion of the lake.

[shooter_mcgavin]

I don't feel one bit guilty about my ancestry as my forefather was part of the inital surveying of Minnesota, and bought land from the government in 1862, 4 years after becoming statehood. Why should I?? The Sioux uprising forced my great-great-grandfather and his family from his farm for 3 months, basically ruining a whole year of crop for them, and the indians that came to the door for food were fed by my great-great-grandmother.

Sorry, I know this is getting off topic but....

Your great-grandfather was probably living on land that the Dakota had yet to be paid for. Granted the civil war was a bit of a distraction, but our government was not holding up their end of the bargain. Also, the blody uprising was followed by the largest mass-execution in U.S. history in Mankato, in which 38 Dakota Indians were hanged all at once.

I'm not taking any sides here, but just thought that both sides of history should be told.

[The Donk]

You may be right but that still does not give anyone who didn't participate in the hangings the right to feel guilty about anything. Do you feel guilty about a murder that took place 300 miles away from someone you have no idea who they are?

This is getting waaaay off topic, I stick by my earlier post of letting them net and see what happens. I understand that they will take fish until the quota is reached and then quit anyways. How about when the indians that want to go catch fish via hook and line, they are given another cooler?? If they are on a hot bite, why would a limit even be applied? This would help with the "slot limit" problem of netting...

[shooter_mcgavin]

You may be right but that still does not give anyone who didn't participate in the hangings the right to feel guilty about anything. Do you feel guilty about a murder that took place 300 miles away from someone you have no idea who they are?

[cookie129]

They will be taking advantage of the good fishing to come early May. Letting them check out more then one cooler would help with any bootlegging if it indeed exists.

[DTro]

With some creative thinking there could be some wonderful ideas to benefit both the band and the local businesses.

Unfortunately for those that want to battle about this to the bitter end....there is no solution.

[glenn57]

against my better judgement i decided to respond. kelly you stated you didnt want this to be semi racist but about 3 paragraphs down how many times do you refer to THE WHITE MAN. seems to me you headed that way. WHY CANT WE GET ALONG AND WORK TOGETHER. how long does one need to be held accountable for the actions of others. heck i dont expect my kids to be held accountable for what i did. time to work toward the future, not. i dont know soveriegn nation 200year old treaties gotta live with old back in the day rules in the computer age, just dont make sense to me. do they hunt and fish with equipment that old? ok im done and will refrain from further replies.

[kelly-p]

Because we need to remember that us white sportfishermen were part of the reason the walleyes collapsed about 15 years ago. Some thing that is still very vivid in my memory, not something that happened 200 years ago. During the 70's and 80's there was a very strong feeling among some sportfishermen that it was OK to ignore the limits and take all the walleyes they could get away with because, "the indians will get them anyway". We cann't make that mistake again.

Where did I say anything about 200 years ago?

[kelly-p]

Here is part of what I'm talking about glenn57.

Sunday, May 23, 1999

Greed depleted Red Lake's once-abundant walleye

Larry Oakes / Star Tribune

"Buying black-market walleye wasn't the only way

non-Indians helped decimate the Red Lake

population. Dyrland said Waskish was the site

in some years of 25 percent of the statewide

arrests of over-limit anglers"

The entire article is on page 2 of the "Would like to know" Topic.

25% of the over limits from across MN were coming off URL. Can any of us sportfishermen be proud of that? I'm not saying the Red Lake Band is right to put nets back in the lake but that is something we can not do anything about. We can do somthing about the blackmarket walleyes and the over limits on our side of the Line.

[barebackjack]

Who in their right mind would DARE to drive away from there with a cooler full of black market fish these days? I dont think the problem is going to be nearly as bad with all the new laws since that era. Im not saying its not happening I just cant foresee it being to the extent it was before. I guess I would like to believe that, what do you think?

[Random guy]

Who in their right mind would DARE to drive away from there with a cooler full of black market fish these days? I dont think the problem is going to be nearly as bad with all the new laws since that era. Im not saying its not happening I just cant foresee it being to the extent it was before. I guess I would like to believe that, what do you think?

Several actually would. In fact a large amount of evidence was collected this last fall by the state from the landing site of a suspected small illegal walleye harvesting operation on the non reservation side of the lake. Actually few miles up the shoreline from Waskish on state land. From the looks of it this midnight operation was working in the brush for some time.

Lets not forget the 20lb propane cylinder stunt a couple weeks ago and the hundreds of piles of walleye carcasas we where finding on the ice when walleye was still closed.

Yes poaching/blackmarket is a huge problem on this side of the lake. .

[CANOPY SAM]

Jonny, I am always struck by your remarkable insight, and poetic gift for writing. I can say the same for Kelly. This site would be grossly one sided and bland if it were not for your thoughtful, and well stated viewpoints. Thank you both.

I was a good friend of FishHead, D. Steele, for many years. He has, unfortunately for many of us, backed away from the limelight of FM. I know he was also, and perhaps still is, a good friend of yours.

It would be good if you and I were to spend a day on the water together. We could almost certainly, at least in our own minds, solve many of the world's ailments.

[eyepatrol]

Two short thoughts/comments and I'll leave it at that.

1. Let's focus on the individuals or small groups of individuals who are wronging the lake and it's natural resources. I don't believe in netting at all, regardless of quotas, but it is what it is and if there is to be some sort of cooperative "governance", then hopefully both sides can focus on those who are taking illegally and give them the shaft for it.

2. Mille Lacs seems to annually adjust their limits. They still haven't found the right balance, maybe never will. Is the poundage quota for URL the proper one? Who's to say. Might be too much, might be just right, might be too little. Only time, research and analysis will tell.

And yes, I realize Mille Lacs and URL are not two peas in a pod, but in some ways, comparisons and analogies can be appropriate.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Believe me guys it has all been said before in the "Who Owns Red Lake" thread that was moved to the Outdoor Discussions Forum...

Over a thousand posts from all view points...

I brought it forward in the Outdoors Discussions Forum if any one wants to read it before beating this dead Mule some more...

That thread should probably be brought back to the Upper Red Lake Forum, pinned to the top, locked, and be required reading before posting on this thread...there won't be much to add...

[shaky legs2]

The year before walleyes were legal on URL we were fishing on the 6 mile angle road to the north off the Hillman road. The plows had uncovered in the snowbank rolls of newspaper with multiple walleye carcases. Angie Warren who was then the CO on Red stopped to check us and we pointed this out to her. She said this was not an isolated occurrence - and this was before it was legal to clean and keep walleyes.

[bturck]

History will always show any of the wrongs that have been committed againist persons or places. It can be a great measuring stick for the future and hopefully all that has happened on URL will benefit from those past mistakes for the future. We all have in our power the ability to change two things; today and tomorrow. Yesterday is gone forever.

[glenn57]

kelly-p, you didnt say anything about 200 years ago, i did. i totally do not understand this treaty stuff and why the soverign nation thing. why is it. stuff that comes from way back, like in the past. leave it there and both sides come together and work towards the future benefits of both sides. no instead things that happened way back keep getting brought up. AND i do not disagree that the white man didnt have a part in the lakes demise. BUT lets stop, start from here and move forward. you, i. or anyone else cannot change what has happened, but we as a group can have a POSITIVE impact on what happens from here on out.

[kelly-p]

Hopefully everybody learned and remembers what happened last time. It is impossible for me to describe the feelings when looking across the lake and not seeing a road or a fishhouse or even one fisherman. LIke Brad Dokken wrote, "It's a sad wind that blows across

the expansive waters of Red Lake, now that the

walleyes are mostly gone."

[shooter_mcgavin]

i totally do not understand this treaty stuff and why the soverign nation thing. why is it. stuff that comes from way back, like in the past. leave it there and both sides come together and work towards the future benefits of both sides. no instead things that happened way back keep getting brought up.

The past gets brought up when people start implying that the treaties and land cessions need not be honored anymore, because that was a long time ago.... The U.S. Constitution is pretty old, should we do away with that as well?

My point is the "treaty stuff" and "sovereign nation thing" are pretty important to the natives, and the U.S. government is going to honor the agreements. We may as well get use to it. It just so happens that Minnesota's major walleye waters are subject to Native American rights to harvest. Our government screwed up there, in my opinion. But it is what it is.