Antler Point Restrictions

[Bear55]

f you get right down to it and YOU had to vote on an antler restriction of lets say 4 points on each side, would you vote yes or no?

No

If it came down to AR or nothing I would vote for AR, however I think there are better options out there so its very unlikely that would ever happen.

[Musky Buck]

Agree with Bear, yes to AR if we can't tame down the buck party hunting. I hear a lot of guys saying they don't want to see AR and I hear that in another sentence you hear about the against saying I've only taken 1 buck in so many years etc. There's another reason for AR or stopping buck party hunting, because a lot of bucks in your area are probably already gunned down, too much pressure on the horns. I really think a lot of hunters are waiting for that buck, lots of bucks only on opening day or weekend, then try to fill those doe permits.

[james_walleye]

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

Hey Peatmoss, AR would be a forced selective harvest reg just as walleye slots are. Walleye slots were put in place to benefit the fisheries and since the DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for "trophies", AR would be put in place for the benefit of the age structure of the deer herd.

Answer this question peat, or anybody. The DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for trophies, they have stated this many times. Why then are they kicking around these ideas? Could it be because they possibly realize there is an issue

The issue of the age structure in our buck population isnt biological?? What is it then?

They are kicking around these ideas because of public opinion. I don't think it has much to do with science or we would already have these regulations in place.

And there my friend you just said what really torks me, managing a deer herd based on public opinion rather than on biology.

[james_walleye]

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

Hey Peatmoss, AR would be a forced selective harvest reg just as walleye slots are. Walleye slots were put in place to benefit the fisheries and since the DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for "trophies", AR would be put in place for the benefit of the age structure of the deer herd.

Answer this question peat, or anybody. The DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for trophies, they have stated this many times. Why then are they kicking around these ideas? Could it be because they possibly realize there is an issue

The issue of the age structure in our buck population isnt biological?? What is it then?

As I understand them, walleye slots were put into place to protect the prime breeding females, thereby increasing the overall population. .In this scenario, everyone sacrifices and gains equally. As I stated in previous posts, the desire for more large antlered deer is a social, not biological consideration. I think I made a reasonable case in my longwinded post that this will have a much more lopsided sacrifice/gain depending on which side you're on.

C,mon guys, my argument isn't that my way or your way is better. It's about choice. I RESPECT THE CHOICE YOU HAVE MADE AND I RESPECT YOUR RIGHT TO ATTEMPT TO PERSEUDE OTHERS. BUT WHAT MAKES YOU FOLKS SO DOGGONED DETERMINED TO FORCE, BY LAW YOUR VALUES ON THE REST OF US???

Hey peat just remember there are alot of people in MN that don't want to put back a 22" walleye just as there is alot of people who don't want to be forced to pass up a buck. Lets not pretend that everyone is happy with walleye slots and that everyone benefits equally on the deal. Walleye slots are a 2 way street just as potential restrictions on which bucks could be harvested. 10 years ago you could have said the same thing about letting a 22" walleye go, that it was a social decision. No one knew just how positive the outcome would be on a fishery just as right now no one has any clue how positive AR could be for the age structure of our bucks.

[PEATMOSS]

Originally Posted By: PEATMOSS

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

Hey Peatmoss, AR would be a forced selective harvest reg just as walleye slots are. Walleye slots were put in place to benefit the fisheries and since the DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for "trophies", AR would be put in place for the benefit of the age structure of the deer herd.

Answer this question peat, or anybody. The DNR doesnt manage our deer herd for trophies, they have stated this many times. Why then are they kicking around these ideas? Could it be because they possibly realize there is an issue

The issue of the age structure in our buck population isnt biological?? What is it then?

As I understand them, walleye slots were put into place to protect the prime breeding females, thereby increasing the overall population. .In this scenario, everyone sacrifices and gains equally. As I stated in previous posts, the desire for more large antlered deer is a social, not biological consideration. I think I made a reasonable case in my longwinded post that this will have a much more lopsided sacrifice/gain depending on which side you're on.

C,mon guys, my argument isn't that my way or your way is better. It's about choice. I RESPECT THE CHOICE YOU HAVE MADE AND I RESPECT YOUR RIGHT TO ATTEMPT TO PERSEUDE OTHERS. BUT WHAT MAKES YOU FOLKS SO DOGGONED DETERMINED TO FORCE, BY LAW YOUR VALUES ON THE REST OF US???

Hey peat just remember there are alot of people in MN that don't want to put back a 22" walleye just as there is alot of people who don't want to be forced to pass up a buck. Lets not pretend that everyone is happy with walleye slots and that everyone benefits equally on the deal. Walleye slots are a 2 way street just as potential restrictions on which bucks could be harvested. 10 years ago you could have said the same thing about letting a 22" walleye go, that it was a social decision. No one knew just how positive the outcome would be on a fishery just as right now no one has any clue how positive AR could be for the age structure of our bucks.

I think we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. Again, as I see it, the walleye slots were designed to protect the prime breeding females, thereby increasing the overall population. APR would protect younger bucks so that they could grow bigger antlers. The desire among some to manage our deer herd for antlers has nothing to do with the overall health of the herd, it is simply a value judgement.

[james_walleye]

I guess im not so sure that is what slots were meant for to begin with. Winnie and Vermillion have never had a problem with the numbers of walleyes in them, they had problems with the size structure of the walleyes and in both cases slots have helped that issue.

I also don't believe managing a deer herd for antlers is value judgement. Many deer herds in other states are managed with the age structure of the bucks in mind. And again, if the DNR didnt see this as an issue in MN then why are certain possible restrictions coming up? If our deer herd in MN was managed for the deer herd itself and on biological reasons we would already have certain regulations in place. You don't happen to think age structure is something that should be taken account of when managing a deer herd, but many people do and many states already take that into account. They do it because a healthy deer herd shouldnt have 9 out of 10 bucks being shot at 1 1/2 years old.

[propster]

And that's the truth. And Skee, that's what I meant about the values of the side that favors the end result being that 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings - those are the regulations that are forced on us, and which affect what I see, not what I choose to shoot. What we manage for now, mostly due to public opinion, is quantity, not herd health, balanced age structure, or quality.

[BobT]

Quote:

Winnie and Vermillion have never had a problem with the numbers of walleyes in them,

Then why did we refer to Vermillion as the dead sea when I was living up there?

[Archerysniper]

Because everyone will not catch their limit every time out. Just remember 10% of the people cath 70% of the fish, same goes with hunting.

[Archerysniper]

I don't no about you but I'm happy going to Mille Lacs and catch walleyes that are protected by the slot it's just fun to catch them I don't care if I get to eat them it's still fun.

[james_walleye]

I have no idea bob, i spent a week up there 5 years ago and caught over 200 walleyes and had 1 over 14".

[subzero]

From points to walleye inches, to agree to disgree, I know people feel strong about AR and QDM, and believe it or not QDM has worked. We started with a closed season because the deer herd was reduced to the point of not being able to hunt for a year. At that time the hunting public was very loud and stated they never wanted that to happen again. The DNR responded with the bucks only laws for a few years and them the covented doe permits. This changed the way people looked at deer hunting, shooting a deer no longer was a reason for celebration. All of a sudden a buck isn't good enough it has to be a 8 pt or better. When as sportsman is it right to make another sportsman feel less than happy because he shot a deer. He shot it in a legal and ethical manner. The size of the deer doesn't matter. During the doe permit years if someone shot a fawn there was good natured ribbing. But I never saw or heard the reactions that QDM and AR has brought out now. I do believe if I were a member of PETA I would go to these website and start this kind if discussion. After all it is easier to have sportsman work against each other than for PETA to spend the money to say that shooting a 1 1/2 year old buck wrong and shopuld be outlawed and that hunters should not be able to party hunt no matter your skill level. It is time to be united not divided. Take your best shot.

[james_walleye]

2010 boys, change is a coming.....

[Musky Buck]

I hear ya james, truthful outlook is I don't want us to get to a point where we have to apply for buck tags and then maybe go a few years in a row where a person doesn't have the chance of taking a buck, it would really make me wonder why I bought so much land and why I'm making so many landpayments. First step is shooting our own buck, I know this is an AR thread and don't want to start a new one in case the answer is simple, but I have a question that I haven't given much thought to. Party hunting/doe permit zones. I shot a buck on Sunday of 1st weekend, tagged it,ok, so I'm licenseless, my friends wanted me to come hunt their farm with them, ok, so I did as a partyhunter(driver), their land is in a different doe permit area than mine, let's say buck party hunting ends, can I still go hunt with my friends if the same scenario played out.

[BobT]

If I understand what the supporters of the idea want, yes as long as you only take a legal doe.

You would not be able to drop a buck if it stood there broadside at 20 yards wearing a target. It could be the buck of a lifetime scoring over 350 but off limits even if the other nineteen members in your party still had unfilled tags, you were the only one to take a deer so far, and it was one hour from sunset on the last day of your season.

[Musky Buck]

Right on Bob, thanks, so I could still as a tagless hunter go to any doe permit zone and still party hunt on their tags for that doe zone, see I didn't think it out to well. If I'm making deer drives, I've already got a buck of a lifetime down and the gun wouldn't come off my shoulder, heck I wouldn't even be carrying it if I were driving, our plan is the drivers already have a deer so we don't carry guns, they are a pain with a scope on them in a drive anyway and the drivers are not allowed to shoot. It's all about getting the non-deer down guys and gals to get one. I'd sleep the same either way if I had to let a big buck get away. I'd hope a friend could tangle with him muzzleloading or late bow. Maybe without buck party hunting people would be more selective and pass on some. I know AR, but does anyone know how many other states allow buck party hunting ?

[Musky Buck]

Hopefully I can put an end to all the gray area topics and AR. Hopefully, with all of this coming out and probable changes coming in the future. If some parties decide to take a few less yearling bucks each year and some decide it's time to stop worrying if he leaves my property he's a dead goat walking and if some hunters can graduate to the next level of buck hunting and if some parties decide, hey from now on let's shoot our own buck then all of these topics and posts are well worth it and we can police our own and we can save some young bucks for the future, others that like the status quo can continue hunting the way they and or their party like to hunt. If any of this back and forth can save some young bucks it was well worth it. Support your HSO sponsers and I wish financial stability to you and yours in these tough times. I need a catchy slogan. Barney Fife " A wink's as good as a nod to a blind mule."