Antler Point Restrictions

[Bowfin]

I don't know if I'll get any responses to this question but here goes:

What do you think of mandated antler point restrictions?

I for one am against them. I think it puts too much emphasis on the trophy deer mentality. It would spoil our traditional Minnesota experience. In the thick woods of northern Minnesota you don't have time to sit and count points anyway. Sometimes you only have time to see if it has antlers or not.

[B K'S DAD]

I agree with you the way. By putting point restriction on all your going to have young buck gettig shot and left to rot because someone made a mistake.

[onlydrakes4me]

I guess its upp to the indiviudal hunter. I personally would like to see some sort of restrictions, but the again i bowhunt so i usually spend as much time as possible in the woods. also if i am going to shoot a deer it is with 50 yards so I would have plenty of time to count points.

I think this situation varies in different parts of the state. obviously there are more deer in different areas. Also in the southern parts of the state mainly south central very few whitetail bucks reach 3yrs or older, by adding antler restrictions i think it will help to improve the quality of whitetail bucks we see each fall.

I'm not strictly a trophy hunter, but i guess if i wanted to put some meet in the freezer i would just shoot a doe, rather than just a young buck

[Jameson]

The short term, after the first year, it seems like a great idea! It could save most 1.5 year old bucks from being shot. Year one of point restrictions not many bucks would be shot. After year one it would likely be a similar number of bucks shot, with bigger head gear.

Long term it sends tremors down my spine! It could be absolutely horrible! Say I am watching a 2.5 year old 6 point that is not shootable because of AR (Antler Restrictions.) Than a 2.5 year old 8 point with great genetics comes walking out. BOOM, the buck with better genetics is dead, and now the buck with inferior genetics is left to breed. 20, 30, 40 years down the road I see a deer herd with far fewer "book" bucks if A.R. are introduced.

[Archerysniper]

I like the idea wish they would do it but they don't have to do the whole state. They are trying it in some park hunts and their also doing earn a buck. They could start adding more management areas like carlos avery and sherburn refuge see how it works and what kind of response we get. Wisconsin has several counties that are earn a buck and it has been working for them. The one problem they have with earn a buck is one person shoots a doe registers it so they can shoot a buck brings it home cuts their tag off and then their freind takes the same doe and registers it so he can shoot his buck they also pick up road kill doe's and do the same thing

[B. Amish]

The short term, after the first year, it seems like a great idea! It could save most 1.5 year old bucks from being shot. Year one of point restrictions not many bucks would be shot. After year one it would likely be a similar number of bucks shot, with bigger head gear.

Long term it sends tremors down my spine! It could be absolutely horrible! Say I am watching a 2.5 year old 6 point that is not shootable because of AR (Antler Restrictions.) Than a 2.5 year old 8 point with great genetics comes walking out. BOOM, the buck with better genetics is dead, and now the buck with inferior genetics is left to breed. 20, 30, 40 years down the road I see a deer herd with far fewer "book" bucks if A.R. are introduced.

Bingo, I totally agree.

[Musky Buck]

Who says you have to shoot the 2 1/2 year old small 8 pointer, wait for buck # 3 to come by. Is a 200 pound dressed 21 inch spread 8 pointer with thick beams at 3 1/2 poor genetics ? We had a Y buck with a funny marking on the front shoulder, at 2 1/2 he was that 2.5 year old 6, at 3 1/2 he was the buck I just mentioned. Our issue is more than antler restrictions, but must be a better hope than EAB from all the cheating that in Wisc. I've heard about.

[Jameson]

...Is a 200 pound dressed 21 inch spread 8 pointer with thick beams at 3 1/2 poor genetics ? ...

Compared to a 240 pound dressed 28 inch spread 12 pointer with tree trunk beams at 3 1/2, yes the first buck would have inferior genetics.

[Code-Man]

I'd like to see a 4 point on one side rule.

[B. Amish]

Who says you have to shoot the 2 1/2 year old small 8 pointer, wait for buck # 3 to come by.

it doesn't matter if you shoot the eight pointer or not. the point is, is that the inferior deer are protected.

[Bear55]

The short term, after the first year, it seems like a great idea! It could save most 1.5 year old bucks from being shot. Year one of point restrictions not many bucks would be shot. After year one it would likely be a similar number of bucks shot, with bigger head gear.

Long term it sends tremors down my spine! It could be absolutely horrible! Say I am watching a 2.5 year old 6 point that is not shootable because of AR (Antler Restrictions.) Than a 2.5 year old 8 point with great genetics comes walking out. BOOM, the buck with better genetics is dead, and now the buck with inferior genetics is left to breed. 20, 30, 40 years down the road I see a deer herd with far fewer "book" bucks if A.R. are introduced.

I've thouth about this too. Even if you had antler point restrictions once every 3-4 years it might be enough to save a good number of large bucks. You would also see a kind of echo down the road where a certain age class of bucks would have a larger population. After a while guys might see the benefit and we might not need to force AR on everyonw.

I was kind of on the fence before about AR restrictions but at this point I see any change as good, even if its not for the long run some short term changes might be a great thing.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: Musky Buck

Who says you have to shoot the 2 1/2 year old small 8 pointer, wait for buck # 3 to come by.

it doesn't matter if you shoot the eight pointer or not. the point is, is that the inferior deer are protected.

Even the inferior deer that get to the proper age will be trophies to most people. I've seen some pictures of 6 pointers I would absolutely have mounted. I think if you had long term AR it might cut down on a few of deer with great genes but its not like you are going to whipe them out. Also if you look at how things currently work pretty much all the young bucks with good genes get taken out so doing nothing might be worse.

[Musky Buck]

But Jameson u are talking about a 5 1/2 year old, maybe that large 8 becomes that monster in 2 more years. Maybe some don't have the ability to be huge and they have been breeding for as long as deer have been around, culling the inferior bucks off is a laugh to me, so like we can eliminate forks and spikes here in MN, aint happenin.

[lakevet]

Are we (hunters, dnr, outdoor media) talking about wild deer who have the genetics of survivors, or are we talking about a herd of livestock we are breeding, and culling to win a first prize at the state fair (or Deer Classic, record books). It is the core question to all of this. I prefer to hunt wild deer. Hopefully Trophy book bucks will remain rare, and therefore a major accomplishment. If it becomes common, then it loses value. It will go from "I have never shot a big buck" to "I didn't get a big buck this year" to "I only have shot 10 big bucks."

I remember when getting a doe permit was cause for celebration for most hunters. Now many can shoot 5 does AND WE ARE COMPLAINING. These are the good old days! Don't get suckered by the marketing machine media. Things sell and profits are made if the buyer is convinced they gotta have product X. If you are happy with what you have, you will still buy, but won't buy as much and not as many types of products. Less sales and less profit = ramp up the marketing to make the hunter feel "deprived" and feel the need to buy. Lets enjoy what we have. Shut off the TV, put down the magazine, get off the internet, and spend more time scouting this weekend. Save the TV, mags, and internet for after dark.

lakevet

lakevet

[B. Amish]

I took the following quotes from an article from Mississippi where antler point restrictions have been in place since 1995.

Quote:

Mississippi’s statewide 4-point antler restriction was

established by legislative action in 1995. Although the

Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks had experimented

with antler point restrictions on some of its public

wildlife management areas (WMAs), they did not recommend

creating the statewide 4-point antler restriction.

Quote:

The perpetual protection of bucks with small

antlers could be a problem with any antler restriction,

but it is especially a problem when using more restrictive

antler restrictions designed to extend protection to

2 1/2-year bucks. For example, if an 8-point antler

restriction were applied to moderate quality habitats in

Mississippi, it would protect almost all yearling bucks

and 70 percent of 2 1/2-year bucks. But it would also

protect 34 percent of bucks 4 1/2-years and older (see

Figure 5). In other words, it would create a class of

always protected, small-antlered, mature bucks that

would eat valuable forage and breed while better-quality

bucks were being harvested.

Quote:

We conclude the 4-point antler restriction has

reduced average antler size of older bucks on numerous

public hunting areas in Mississippi. We emphasize these

results were from public hunting areas, and that’s where

the conclusions are most applicable, but these problems

could develop on private lands under similar management

conditions.

[CSTPETER]

I'm definitely in favor of trying this with some sort of free pass for the kids. I have a hard time buying the argument that the genetic pool will be diluted due by APR when we're indiscriminately taking out probably 90% of every yearling age class anyway.

A positive side effect of this is that it forces the Hunter to wait until a proper I.D. can be made. I'm sure this comes as bad news for the wild west-shoot'em up-empty your clip on a runing deer because it's fun crowd, But overall it encourages self discipline and probaly results in better shot selection.

BTW this should be a piece of cake compared to judging whether a moose in AK has a 50" spread. Talk about nerve racking.

[Musky Buck]

I missread you Jameson, sorry, and B. Amish I hear that, we'd be better off having a guy get a fork over a nice basket racked off to a good start 8 pointer. I like Dave T's how can have better bucks with party hunting and gun hunting the peak of the rut. I always respond with how did we grow so many trophy bucks while allowing party hunting and rifle hunting the peak of the rut, we used to, so what happened. I'm off this topic because it would barely apply to my area anyway, we are already leaving the young bucks alone and yes it has led to us getting much older, better racked bucks. If I were buying land today I might take the time to ask the people around it how their hunting party operates.

[Musky Buck]

My last bit about well, people will shoot them and leave them lay if they don't have 4 on a side. If it's law, then suffer the consequences. Are early antlerless people gunning down young bucks, ooops, it's a buck leave it lay, maybe so but if so they shouldn't pull the trigger, an accident like that should never happen unless a buck cuts or runs in front of the doe you are trying to take. Weren't we all taught, if you are unsure don't pull the trigger or release the arrow. I hope at gun safety training they teach that or are you meaning that buck fever types won't be able to resist or take the time to count them, remember as that deer walks off or runs, he might be back 10 minutes later or that night or the next day. Anyway, thank goodness my area is fine, but I have many friends hunting many areas where they are surrounded by the if it's brown it's down theory hence they keep just recycling young deer every year. The answer is........? Stirring the pot how about 2 licenses. 9 days for trophy hunters meaning at least 4 on a side minimum and 2 days for meat hunters, no then every little squirt buck would get dropped, ???????????

[Musky Buck]

Maybe the debate is more about some treat deer like livestock for meat and others treat them as hunting animals and others have graduated to where once you've taken plenty, just any ol deer won't do. Shed time !

[CanOCorn]

1. You can't cheat at earn-a-buck in WI. I hunt a CWD Herd Reduction area with my family in soutern WI and you register your doe and they cut the ear off it. You can not "cheat" the system anywhere in the state. Policy is ear removal at all registration stations.

2. I was not a fan of the EAB program but my families track record speaks for itself. Over the last 6 years we have taken a lot more big bucks. We practice deer management and someone has always shot a nice buck each year but now we are getting 2, 3 and this year 4 trophy bucks.

Call it dumb luck but I tend to think the opening morning "it's brown, it's down" hunters are not able to shoot these immature bucks as they walk by and so they grow to mature bucks.

Oh, and the secret to EAB is shoot the fawn and let the mature doe breed again. We find that if you shoot the doe, more than likely the fawn dies anyway.

[B K'S DAD]

I think they is more nice buck out there then you think. In the last 4 years the party I hunt with shot 4, 8 points and 1 10 point buck. All you have to do is spend a little time in the woods before souting and during the season hunting.And if that don't work look for a new area. My party which my 2 brother and are 5 boys. We do shot does if we see them, but we try not to shot more then we can eat in 1 year.

[Musky Buck]

Can O Corn so no one can shoot their doe or fawn the night before season or shoot the buck first anyway and use someone in your parties doe/fawn to tag as your own, register it, head back to camp and then get your buck out of the woods or hang it until you take a baldy or find a road kill before it loses an ear ? I hear what you are saying it's tougher to cheat the system than it appears. Thing is in MN in many areas right now, lowered deer numbers already, I think it is hard to define areas in MN, some sections loaded with goats and others a mile away have low numbers. My thinking is with a lower harvest total by some 40,000 animals, maybe deer numbers will rebound in some areas because of a lower slaughter number.

[Musky Buck]

CSTPeter, true, young and elderly hunters need to be left out of this conversation. 1st time hunters ????? Well they wouldn't know what it was like before anyway, so they could fawn,doe,or 4 on a side and up, that's still having a good hunt and generally speaking new hunters probably aren't just seeing just bucks under the antler restriction, they'd get some shooting. Off to get Tcam, stand work,shooting lanes cut and sheds from the wintering herd on that for sale land. Later gators, MB

[Bear55]

From what I hear in Wisconsin a road kill is an automatic EAB tag. Sounds like cheating to me.

[Jameson]

...if you had antler point restrictions once every 3-4 years...

What would happen if we had 4 point to a side minimum AR, but every fifth year had a 3 point to a side maximum AR. There would be some huge 6 pointers taken every fifth year. Just an idea...

[skee0025]

From what I hear in Wisconsin a road kill is an automatic EAB tag. Sounds like cheating to me.

The DNR/Police try to get to all road kill as fast as possible and they are pretty good at it. They Use neon spray paint on all carcasses they get to to prevent people from registering road kill, but yes if you get to it before it gets marked it can be registered. Another draw back is that I have seen "deer" with spots registered just so a person could get their EAB buck stickers. I have also heard people talking about where they were planning on dumping the does they registered because all they were interested in were bucks...yes the DNR did get a call.

[BuckKiller]

I would support and antler restriction before I would support EAB.

I think that antler restriction would protect the nondominate bucks some never get bigger then a spike. Do we really want these deer around for seven years breading does... I think not.

EAB isnt a very good idea either because people will shoot the first doe/fawn that they see. This will decrease the population faster. The group of people I hunt with is made up of 8 people, now lets say all eight people shoot a doe/fawn so they can get a buck tag, and lets say 3 of those people get a buck... thats 11 deer! Now we have to eat 11 whole deer in one year, probably not going to happen...am I right?

We ended up getting 8 this year, processing was very expensive, if we wouldve only shot bucks we wouldve got 4. This still wouldve been a decent amount of meat. Next year im going bucks only NO DOES.

My point is I think EAB would waste alot of deer. IMO

[92python]

I like the antler restriction idea for some but for 1st time hunters any deer is a trophy so I's like to see them be able to shoot a spike or forky. I know I used to get exited about the chance to shoot any buck years ago.

After shooting 2.5 year old 8 or 9 pointers on the firearms opener for 3 years in a row back in the late 90s I imposed my own restrictions on the deer I shoot and have been passing on those 160 pound or so 90 to 100 inch 8 pointers.

I'd be fine with moving the firearms season to later in the year and have no trouble with the no party hunting deal either.

As far as party hunting goes my firearms group has an rule that says if you have shot your buck and you want to use my tag the deer needs to be big enough that you buy the tag from me. We used to buy the multizone bucks only license ($75 or so) and now get the all season license.

[Musky Buck]

Pressured pressured deer. Moving the season would do what ? It would make already nocturnal deer extremely nocturnal. You know how it is if we moved rifle season ahead when bucks are establishing a radius and hoping for an estrous doe, we'd really hammer them. Each week of Nov.-Dec. the goats get pretty nocturnal is that from the rifle season or time of year or both. Later in International Falls would be way different than Worthington. Personally, I wish they would've left zone 4 alone. It split up a lot of hunters and allowed for the people that are only buck hunters, however they must stop cross tagging etc and I wish those multi-zone/all season buck tags were antler point restricted and wish hunters would stop abusing the system. Hunters wishing to take any buck could opt for the 2 day first weekend or the 4 day second weekend. I miss those days. I know it was only saving the deer 3 days of rifle hunting but it must have saved some bucks. Also, what's with this new muzzleloader phenomenon, must be mainly financial. It was better when you had to declare if you were a gun or muzzy hunter, split up the hunters even more. I could see if our numbers of deer get out of whack again, allow that all-season set up again, just a few thoughts.

[lichen fox]

If I were in the business of selling paper to printers I'd definatly be all for adding another 50 or so pages of regulations to the Minnesota hand book....but since I'm not, I think we should just stick with what we have and work on getting a "few LESS" regulations.