Antler Point Restrictions

[picksbigwagon]

Yes, I have changed some of my opinions in the last 2 months that these posts have been popping up. I see the need to stop cross tagging bucks, I see it, I agree with it, I am not sure how or if it could be enforced. No doubt private QDM works, it has worked in the land I used to hunt in Houston county. I have no idea how the state could implement it, besides going with an Antler restriction or requirement, whatever the R stands for. who ever likened this to catch an release bass fishing is right. Education, talking with your neighbors, getting big areas with lots of land owners agreeing to let the little ones walk is the only way to get this done. The state would never come down and say that.

I know that Iowa doesn't have that requirement, nor does Wisconsin. I don't agree with the state stepping in and making us age deer before we shoot them.

I think moving firearm seasons out of the rut would be a great start. I personally would like to see no one hunting during the rut. But would be satisfied with moving the firarm season back until at least thanksgiving if not the week after it. But we are dealing with the state of Minnesota where traditions rule....

I am not sure how much new info there is to add to this topic, there is a lot to read here and a lot to digest and think about.

[BobT]

I've always wondered why, when the deer herd was suffering in numbers enough to require buck only seasons, we continued to hunt those bucks during the rut. It never made any sense to me and seemed counter-productive. Of course, the bucks are bigger during the rut, aren't they with their necks and shoulders swelled up to twice their normal size and weight if not more. We wouldn't get true trophies outside the rut when their necks and shoulders are skinny and their bodies worn out and beat up unless we only mounted the antlers and skipped the bust mounts.

Bob

[PEATMOSS]

I used to worry a bit about PETA and the ultra-liberal gungrabbers ruining the great heritage of hunting and fishing that is such a huge part of my life. I've got to admit to a growing concern I have with a certain segment within the outdoor community. I really don't want to see fishing and hunting go the way it has in Europe where only a wealthy few can participate.

Yes, I know we're a ways from that scenario, but I'm seeing trends that truly disturb me. Reducing the great heritage and tradition of deer hunting to a game of antler quest is one of those trends.

I wish that those that have the finances, family and work situations that allow them great opportunities would more carefully ponder the effects of forcing their attitudes and values on others. There seems to be a perverse sense of entitlement and self rightousness among certain folks. If you think I'm being paranoid, check out the "who should make the rules" thread in the archery section of this very site.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, IF antlers are so important to such a large number of folks, then the situation will take care of itself and there is no need for new laws. If it is not, then this is just a case of a vocal minority pushing it's agenda on the majority.

[propster]

Hey Picks, nice post. I'm glad to see that some of your thoughts on these subjects have changed. I also have come to at least a little bit better understanding of where some of the guys with opposing views are coming from. It hasn't changed my opinion of of what I would certainly love to see in Minnesota, where I have bought a bow license every year and haven't even used it the last 3. I just wish more people were less afraid of what they "might" lose, and be more willing to embrace what they will "likely" gain. And if having to read an extra page or two of regulations is our biggest gripe, well...how committed are we really to what we supposedly hold so dear?

[Bowfin]

I guess if I experienced some of the dismal pictures some guys are painting I may feel differently about AR and party hunting bucks. But I certainly know all the young and mature bucks on the northern Minnesota public lands I hunt are not getting shot off every year like it sounds like they do in other parts of the State. I can say I am a "meat hunter" and have tried my best to shoot any antlered buck I could in my northern Minnesota big woods area I have been hunting for 25 years. I hunt with a big party with plenty of tags. This is how successful I have been in the last decade at trying to shoot all the bucks I could:

2000 - fork

2001 - doe, nice ten pointer

2002 - doe

2003 - doe

2004 - Nice eight, nice heavy six, antlerless buck (oops)

2005 - large 1-antler 5 point (would have been a large 10 if it had both antlers), spike

2006 - 2 antlerless bucks (my first kills with a muzzy - cool!)

2007 - doe

2008 - skunked - Although I had what appeared to be a nice 8 and a small 6 get by me in the thick brush at less than 20 yards

In the last 9 years the number of "nice" bucks I have been seeing is keeping up to the number of small antlered bucks. Many years I don't get a chance at any buck. Don't impose AR in the big woods area because:

- with all the cover its challenge getting any buck - for instance I haven't killed any antlered buck since 2005 - I'd get a thrill out of getting a chance at even a smaller one this year.

- being so thick, many times its near impossible to count points in time to shoot - I'd feel really bad mistakenly shooting a buck that wasn't legal if AR were in place - most of the nicer bucks I have shot I hadn't known how many points they had until I killed them - I just knew they had antlers.

- with all the cover many bucks are surviving the hunting season already.

- true "meat hunters" are probably not the problem - they take the first nice deer they can - many times its a doe. Over the last 25 years I have taken 30 deer (15 antlered bucks and 15 antlerless deer). I didn't plan it to happen that way - it just did.

[Musky Buck]

Slight confusion, in the last 9 years, in this thick cover you hunt, the number of large bucks is keeping up with the small buck population, then why no buck since 2005 ? It must be thick if you can't identify a buck at less than 20 yards. Interesting, but if you can not brush blast at less than 20 yards do the same if unsure about a buck at further range ? I know devils advocate I don't feel up north AR would be the answer but leaving little bucks go/grow would work anywhere I would think it makes sense, but the north country woods and timber is a different ballgame.

[BobT]

I’ll share where some of my reasoning comes from.

We have party hunted the same area for nearly 20 years and our party has been as small as two and as large as eight. We don’t purposely practice QDM where we hunt although typically once a hunter in our party takes a deer he trophy hunts the rest of the season. Not always but most of the time that’s how it works. Two years ago my daughter took a decent opening morning 8-pointer that dressed about 175 and two hours later my nephew dropped a beautiful 185 lb. 10-pointer that looked like an offspring of a 10-pointer I got about 10 years ago. A week later my brother dropped a 205 lb. 12-pointer from the same stand my nephew used. Last year one of our party dropped a 185 lb.12-pointer on opening day. My brother has many such racks with one 14-pointer that dressed out at nearly 210. We don’t bait, we don’t use mineral or salt blocks, we don’t use decoys, we don’t plant food plots, and we don’t pre-scout. Some of us do use scents while hunting.

You see why I don’t think QDM is as necessary as others? I believe the deer are out there but there are so many deer that the number of smaller/younger ones taken is just higher and so we hear about it. If the deer population was lower we wouldn’t be taking all the small uneducated bucks because we just wouldn’t be filling all the tags we do today. There just has to be some that make it through the season, get smarter, and grow larger. We hunters might be good at hunting but we’re not that good even though we might think we are.

Bob

[Bear55]

I used to worry a bit about PETA and the ultra-liberal gungrabbers ruining the great heritage of hunting and fishing that is such a huge part of my life. I've got to admit to a growing concern I have with a certain segment within the outdoor community. I really don't want to see fishing and hunting go the way it has in Europe where only a wealthy few can participate.

Yes, I know we're a ways from that scenario, but I'm seeing trends that truly disturb me. Reducing the great heritage and tradition of deer hunting to a game of antler quest is one of those trends.

I wish that those that have the finances, family and work situations that allow them great opportunities would more carefully ponder the effects of forcing their attitudes and values on others. There seems to be a perverse sense of entitlement and self rightousness among certain folks. If you think I'm being paranoid, check out the "who should make the rules" thread in the archery section of this very site.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, IF antlers are so important to such a large number of folks, then the situation will take care of itself and there is no need for new laws. If it is not, then this is just a case of a vocal minority pushing it's agenda on the majority.

Everyone talks about the great heritage and traditions of hunting, every photo I have seen from back in the day had a couple of nice bucks hanging. If you look at todays deer poles its nothing but young bucks and a couple of does. Our grandfathers may have shot everything they saw but it was a balance harvest of does and buck that spread across differet age classes. If changing a few laws can get us back to the good old days I say lets go for it.

The rest of your post is bit exteme and speaks for itself as soon as you start comparing hunting to PETA and gun grabbers.

[Bear55]

We don’t purposely practice QDM where we hunt although typically once a hunter in our party takes a deer he trophy hunts the rest of the season. Not always but most of the time that’s how it works.

This is one of the big problems, not trying to call you out Bob just saying in general too many people do this to the point of over harvesting young bucks. We are allowed to shoot as many bucks as we see as a party. A lot of guys blast away at everything they see, then once they have a deer or two or more they start to trophy hunt. Even then I have heard guys say they are trophy hunting and then come back with a spike be cause someone else would have got it anyway or another guy they know needs a deer. Buck tags are just so abundant you can alwasy find one. If we could just eliminate buck party hunting we could easily save a nice number of young bucks. As soon as people know hey I can only shoot one buck and thats it they might think twice about pulling the trigger. Then if you are only a meat hunter you can still shot whatever you please.

[DaveT]

I think I have been a little bit misunderstood by some. I frequently point to Iowa and other midwest states as models for what the hunting could be like here. Those other states have a more balanced age structure in their herds than we do in most if not all of our state. Those states, other than certain counties in Missouri, do not have laws directly protecting young bucks. What they do have is a balanced herd that has enough young bucks in it to satisfy the meat hunter who doesn't care about antlers, and enough mature bucks to satisfy the trophy hunter, who does care about antlers. In some areas they have this because there is little hunting pressure. Other areas have it because private individuals choose not to shoot immature deer on ground they control. Some areas have shorter seasons or limits on what weapons they can use.

What they all have in common is a balanced age structure, and it matters little to me how they achieved it. Even in these states, mature bucks are the smallest segment of the population, but they might be 10%, where as ours is probably 2%. Once a population has this balance, the harvest naturally will follow suit with the population, provided the hunters don't wipe it out. That is what I am after, 1 or 2 years of lowering the buck harvest a little to get a few bucks through to their 2nd or 3rd birthday, then a little protection, such as no buck party hunting,to keep the balance in place.

Once that is done, there will be enough bucks of all classes to satisfy the meat hunter and the trophy hunter. I do not expect to see a trophy behind every tree, there isn't going to be a trophy behind every tree. You may not even notice a difference if you hunt 3 or 5 days a year, because there are too many variables that can effect your individual success in such a short period of time. I will notice the difference because I hunt a minimum of 100 hours a year, and time in the woods is the greatest factor in determining my success. If there are 10 trophys in the area I hunt instead of 2, the odds just went up substantially that I will see 1 at some point during those 100 hours.

These other states don't need to regulate antler restrictions because the herd is balanced, and the hunters do it themselves. Some like antlers, some don't care, and they naturally spread their harvest out amongst what they have. Our current situation doesn't allow this natural selection to take place, because the herd is 95% yearlings and so is the harvest. Those of us who choose to not shoot yearlings are not helping to balance the age structure, we are only helping some guys fill their freezers.

If you only have 1 opportunity to kill a buck each year, I want you to kill that buck, regardless of how old it is or isn't. What I don't want is for you to kill 3 or 4 bucks each year.

I don't think that is asking very much.

[Bowfin]

Slight confusion, in the last 9 years, in this thick cover you hunt, the number of large bucks is keeping up with the small buck population, then why no buck since 2005 ? It must be thick if you can't identify a buck at less than 20 yards. Interesting, but if you can not brush blast at less than 20 yards do the same if unsure about a buck at further range ? I know devils advocate I don't feel up north AR would be the answer but leaving little bucks go/grow would work anywhere I would think it makes sense, but the north country woods and timber is a different ballgame.

I hunt public land that has been logged over the last 25 years. Hunting thick 20 year old pine plantations or aspen regeneration the deer aren't seen until they are 20-30 yards away and you only have a short time to identify, pick your shot and shoot. I guess the point I was trying to make is that its hard to count points under those circumstances and also even though I have plenty of party tags available and willing to shoot any buck, I have not been able to stack up 4-5 small bucks yearly - I am lucky many years to get any buck. Also, the bucks I have been seeing seem to be an equal number of nice bucks and small bucks. The key is no bucks since '05 small or large.

[BobT]

Dave, that was a very nicely put, well thought out way to put it. One thing I noticed is that you didn't refer to it as herd health but instead referred to it as herd age balance. I think there's a huge difference.

When we equate herd health to deer age it begs the question, "health by who's standard?" Health by the trohpy hunter's standard would imply a higher percentage of adult deer and perhaps even a lower percentage of deer overall whereas a herd health by a meat hunter's standard is probably just the opposite - more, younger deer.

I don't think outlawing buck party hunting will help simply because it can't really be enforced very well. I would be more inclined to think we could invert the antlerless lottery structure and make it an antlered lottery structure. Now at least the buck harvest can be regulated through licensing similar to how we manage doe populations now.

In areas where the doe severely outnumber bucks, antlered permits could be required and vise versa.

Bob

[Musky Buck]

I got ya Bowfin, I hear that, good to hear there is a good age structure where you are, I wish everywhere we had that. How do you ever get a deer in that less than 20 yard stuff ? That's giving you less than 60 feet to make your shot. That's some close bangin' bowfin. Bear55 and Dave, right on guys. I hear ya Bob, but first if we can get put in the no buck party hunting, sure lots would still skirt that by walking a licensed hunter to the downed buck and tagging it and if checked would lie and say I got it but trying to give hunters the benefit of the doubt, I think enough guilty consciences would change a lot of people and our future hunters would grow up with this 1 buck per hunter which would make a lot of guys more patient with their buck tag which would save a lot of them for there future and others future hunts. Also, it would get some people out of the woods and spread out the hunters a little. It wouldn't infringe on anyone taking any buck, it would hopefully curtail the guys shooting 5 or 6 or just multiple bucks. In a way we have no idea how much of this is going on, but it would be a good starting point.

[Bear55]

The problem with a buck lotto is it has very little support so the DNR won't touch it. Myself and many others here might be for it but that is about it. While party hunting for bucks may be hard to enforce over time it will just be the way things are and guys will accept it. Sure it might take a few guys getting busted in certain areas but I think most hunters are law abiding citizens. I think most people breaking any buck party hunting law might get caught by TIP the first couple years, after that fear of being turned might be enough to keep people in line.

[Big Dave2]

I think I have been a little bit misunderstood by some. I frequently point to Iowa and other midwest states as models for what the hunting could be like here. Those other states have a more balanced age structure in their herds than we do in most if not all of our state. Those states, other than certain counties in Missouri, do not have laws directly protecting young bucks.

[Musky Buck]

Bob I had the same thought though with walleye slots, I thought well people will just hide them or whatever, I'm sure some do, we can't enforce that very well and same with deer, I think the walleye slots have caught on better now, sure some will bend the rules and some always have, that's the way a lot of things work in this country. Buck Lottery ? Hope not. When you fire out a couple hundred thousand on deer hunting land you hope to be able to hunt it for a buck. If that is the greatest need to help out, then I guess that will be some spendy doeheads.

[buckhunter21]

I think we would all like to see more bucks without changing any laws but i think that would take a very long time. More and more people are passing on younger deer every year but its just not catching on fast enough and dont know if it ever will to make a difference in the quality of bucks in this state. That is why I think we need some kind of regulation to do this. Most people in this state grow up with the mentality that they can shoot any buck and shoot as many as there party will allow them because the law says they can, and if you grow up with that mentality you are more than likely going to stick with it. If we get some kind of reg to increase the number of large bucks then maybe people will change their views and we wont need a regulation after a few years. I hate as much as anybody else to tell someone they cant shoot a certain deer because its not "big enough" and i wish there was someway that both sides of this could get what they want, but right now the way the laws are the people who want to see more mature bucks are on the losing end of it.

[BobT]

I know what you're saying but if I'm back in the woods and my other party members are less than a couple hundred yards away and I take a buck even though I've already tagged a buck, in less than 10 minutes my hunting buddy is there putting his tag on it. Unless the CO is going to wander out into the forest aimlessly looking for hunters, it's not likely he'll be anywhere within earshot much less eyesight to catch us doing it.

Whereas when I'm out in a boat on open water a CO driving by on the highway along shore sees me out there and can launch and be at my side in less than 10 minutes to check my livewell. Much easier to catch me doing that than taking an extra buck while party hunting.

Bob

[Musky Buck]

I hear that Bob, that is already happening in places. We don't have CO's in a way, unless you linger by roads when was the last time you were checked and was it in the field, they check deer drives and people at the road for the most part, they are way overtaxed and did you read they aren't planning on hiring any new ones until 2011, maybe. I wish as CO's can help the sheriff's office on calls I wish the sheriff's office could help crack down on hunting violations but a lot of deputies like to hunt, I wish they'd turn in my neighbor for shooting too early or late, you'll say you turn him in, how do you prove either or. So if you were a fish rule breaker you'd be the dummy that put like 30 walleyes in your livewell while fishing alone, cmon bob the crooks hide them anywhere, but in the livewell. It's all % with most people obeying the law and rules. I don't care about the rule breakers, yes it stinks, but I can only control myself and hopefully rub off on my nephews etc and people I hunt with, the importance of not being a game hog and never straying off the legal path. Bottom line is go ahead and cheat, if that's you it's you and it's in you, but you have to live with yourself and Bob if your group wants to skirt the law go ahead, don't assume that will be everyones strategy, to figure out the best way to get around new regs. The CO's shouldn't have to catch anyone, but given a pop. of 600,000 hunters of course we'll have the clowns involved giving decent people that hunt a bad name and of course you'll hear more about the bad then the good, America loves that, just turn on TV tonight or any night. The first 3-4 news events of the night are usually bad or have a bad tone to them.

[Bear55]

Bob I had the same thought though with walleye slots, I thought well people will just hide them or whatever, I'm sure some do, we can't enforce that very well and same with deer, I think the walleye slots have caught on better now, sure some will bend the rules and some always have, that's the way a lot of things work in this country. Buck Lottery ? Hope not. When you fire out a couple hundred thousand on deer hunting land you hope to be able to hunt it for a buck. If that is the greatest need to help out, then I guess that will be some spendy doeheads.

Great point Musky, now I'm not trying to compare walleye slots to deer management but there are some similarities we can look at. Before slots were imposed on some lakes you maybe had a minority of guys releasing fish. Some guys argue that if QDM is popular that is all we need but had slots not been imposed as a new regulation a lot guys don't release fish and never see the benefit of catch and release. You could say the same thing for deer hunting, the state might need to change a few regs for some people to see the benefits of QDM.

[Musky Buck]

Right on Bear55, we can all agree change can be tough and when it alters your routine and way of life it throws us off the norm. I sometimes have wished to that our deer registration process could be a bit more thorough. I don't want our gas station people to get the brunt of that, they are busy enough, but while registering I heard 2 guys saying don't worry about it da da da da. What they were talking about was how a party member had to go back to the cities so they were using his tag and license to register the deer they had, use those extra tags first, then save yours for another or muzzy. There's a million loopholes I know. I think why we are discussing AR or no buck party hunting etc. is because it is everyone's right now to party hunt for bucks if you choose to and many of us can't change the kind of person that is hammering 2,3,4,5 or even 6 bucks which is the most I have heard anyone getting in one year. We have more licensed hunters in the state than we have antlered bucks each year. We have longer seasonal opportunities if chosen. A much more pressured herd. A herd in many areas that is lacking mature bucks. A new wave of hunters who are tired of year after year never even seeing let alone getting a chance at a mature buck, in those areas the cycle just continues to where now there are more hunters than decent bucks so what do those guys do other than pray for a large buck fawn crop, they shoot em up.

[Ice Chicken]

Why does it always have to be the other guys fault when there are no or very few big bucks left in the area you hunt in? Maybe just maybe if you guys that have to hammer that trophy big boy every year would take a doe instead things may improve. But I am sure that would be a ego buster for most. To me wanting everyone else to sacrifice their hunting experiance and you giving up nothing in return seems kind of self serving. Or did I miss what you are going to do for everyone else who enjoys hunting and doesn't have to shoot that trophy year after year?

[Bear55]

Ice Chicken I think you are mistaken on who is shooting does and who are hammering the bucks year after year. Since I started practicing QDM in 2000 I have taken 2 bucks and maybe 10 or 12 does. That is 7 unfilled buck tags, I probably pass up 10-20 buck every season. I would guess most other QDM guys in the state have similar stats.

Now you might have other guys who have shot 10 to 30 little bucks in that same time frame, that right there is the problem.

[buckhunter21]

Ice Chicken, i dont agree with you at all. How can you say we dont make sacrifice by passing on numerous smaller bucks to try and let them get bigger only to have someone blast them 10 minutes later. And i dont know about these other guys but i know im not shooting a trophy every year, i would be happy to shoot one every 5 years even. Thats what we are trying to improve istead of maybe getting a trophy once or twice in our life to maybe getting one every couple of years. But to say we want every one to give up there hunting experience and we give nothing in return is just a low blow we have been making sacrifices for years and not getting any return for it. I dont think there are many people out there who can honestly say they dont want to shoot a trophy buck so i dont understand why you dont think it would make hunting more enjoyable for most people.

[Musky Buck]

The trophy argument and AR a bit. You know we are a geared country toward any trophy or in athletics they'd never hand one out, with first always being bigger. Hunting wise, we shoot the male species predominately with exception to geese. Turkey-Male.Pheasant-Male.Elk,Deer,Moose, it's why those buck tags cost way more than an antlerless. Anyway ice chicken, I have lots of big bucks in the area I hunt in because of self induced AR or go/grow. We don't hammer a trophy every year and shooting a doe won't put better horns on a bucks head in my area, things are in check deer # wise. We have been giving up tons for the return, I have let 40-50 little bucks have a fighting chance for a 2nd or 3rd set of head gear realizing if those little guys jump the fence they will be shot, but that's out of my control and I can't worry about it, it is what it is. Maybe us go/grow guys should hunt old school again and hammer em and fill party member tags, get the wife one, etc. and heck with the neighbors, that philosophy would put a huge dent into other parties hunting successes. The only change you'd have under AR would be only adults from 21-60 would not be allowed to stack up the 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 point buck. If they wouldn't protect the young and older hunters, I would not be for it. I'm at the point in hunting where if I can't hunt for a decent buck I don't want to go. I'm sorry I don't have the heart to shoot healthy does and fawns, the way the deer numbers are down in our area, we have plenty of people around me willing to. I've field dressed 23 bucks and 3 does. I do not enjoy any bit of that. If my knife is to be used it will only be used on a mature buck, I've shot enough deer and our numbers are in check and our go/grow is working so I'd be a fool to drop a Y buck when 5 minutes later a previous season buck I passed on has turned into a giant, my 2cents actually 10 cents.

[CSTPETER]

Ice Chicken, I hate to pile on but you're way off here. Bear, Buckhunter, Musky and myself have been advocating the harvest of does as a sensible alternative in favor of letting the little bucks walk. The reason there aren't as many mature deer is not because we shoot them all, It's because they all get shot at 1.5 years.

[Musky Buck]

Right on guys, heck I admit I can't shoot a doe or fawn anymore and it isn't about the big buck. But, 95% of the people around my areas will and do take them by bow,rifle,or muzzy or by car. If the numbers weren't in check I would gladly help things out and take select doe antlerless deer. If I wanted some meat, I'd take a doe for sure. To me if I get meat great, if I don't oh well. Usually some family members give me some or enough for the year anyway. As spring turns into summer turns into early fall, if you know and can scout deer in your area you'll know if there are too many, too few, or just about right then hunt accordingly. Many of us aren't saying trophy deer all over etc, but we'd like to see less of the yearling buck crop just getting slaughtered every year and the tendency would be more larger bucks in return which would spread out and give more hunters a better opportunity at a larger goat because there are many sections of land in MN where it's been awhile since a mature buck has walked in it. I hate to use a fishing analogy but I loved duck lake by huntersville for walleyes. It used to be great until the fisherman kept all the big walleyes. Each year they got smaller and smaller until it wasn't even worth fishing. Since the 1 over 20" and more catch and release, it is slowly bouncing back. Duck lake was left with lots of very small walleyes. In one of my deer areas,the now bad one, we had 2 great back to back years where most everyone bagged a good buck, what replaced those big boys were the fawns from the next year, the 1 1/2 year olds and now that cycle can't be broken because now the average hunter only sees yearling bucks so that is what is going down pronto. I know right now with 20 stands in that area that there might be 2-3 good bucks around next fall and a dozen or 2 pending the buck fawn ratio, little guys. I scouted every weekend last fall and never saw a shootable buck in velvet or otherwise. The area report followed suit. I do understand this, that hunting does mean different things to different people. I do understand this to that in many areas of the state the small buck is overharvested.

[Musky Buck]

Sorry about the epistle. This is the bottom line. I luckily, and doing without financially, can hunt deer in 3 separate areas. Friends and family have seen through the years some of the bucks I have been so fortunate to connect with. These friends and family wish they could have the chance at a good buck more than the going rate which some have yet to see a decent buck, for some it has been many years. At first many were fooled into thinking bad weather or an off year or poor daylight rut activity or you know point the finger at the most likely reasons. Now they are realizing there might not be a mature buck near their property last year, this year and for the next upcoming years. I know the hard part for some is not having enough acres to hunt, heck there are hundreds of stands on land where no deer live, they just shoot what comes out of other landowners. These fringe hunters realize any crack they get they better fire. My relatives and friends realize even though they let the small buck walk, once off the property if seen most likely shot, they are tired of that recycling of yearling bucks so I go to the plate for them.

[Musky Buck]

Got the ? thrown my way, why don't I let them hunt my areas etc. Well, the doing without financially. I've invested a lot of money into land and deer hunting. Most of these relatives are way better off than me financially, but they choose season tickets to the twins, lake cabins, Escalades, casino gambling, etc. As soon as I would see some season tickets, a week or 2 stay at one of there lake places, etc. I'd listen then. People choose different avenues to put there financial resources, my choice was hunting ground. And some know how that can go, you let 1 hunter in and pretty soon it's 2 or more or problems can arise and many have been on either side of that ugly fence.

[james_walleye]

Hammering a big boy every year lol??!! Who is doing that? I let countless bucks go by every year but yet im not giving up anything? I have 1 "trophy" in 14 years of hunting. I have shot 9 does in that 14 years. Yeah maybe i should stop taking that 1 trophy every 14 years and we should keep letting the guy next door shoot 3 yearlings every year, yeah maybe things will then improve lol.