Can an American Cocker still hunt?

[Big Dave2]

Very good reading!

[ReelTimes]

Labs, I was thinking about your comments on labs and you may be right about the line breeding, although I think also a factor may be breeding programs selecting those dogs with traits required to win trials and continue to emphasize those same traits over and over. In the end you have high powered dogs with much natural ability that can handle the collar program but probably too hot for the average guy. Have you had an opportunity to work with or see any of the british bred labs from british field trial lines? As you may know, British trials are different from American trials and I am generalizing but understand they tend to be more controllable dogs.

[LABS4ME]

There is some truth to the British dogs tending to be more controllable, but many of the "British" dogs in America are only partially British and thusly can take on traits from either of the parents. While some are of full blood, and bred accordingly, many of those 50-50 lineage dogs are bred back to all American stuff... those pups are now only 25% British but are still sold as "british" pups... over time you will be back to square one. I know of 2 "full" blooded British dogs that are as 'hot' as any American bred line, I also know of another that is so incredibly 'under control' and she has had almost zero training. Many of the Brits seem to be slowly ratcheting up their dogs to compete on par with American dogs... we'll have to wait and see if they breed their dogs up to the level of the American trial dog. Seems we've done this to every breed in every sport. Dogs, Horses, even Human athletes. Think of it this way, there is no way most football, basketball or hockey players from 30-40 years ago could compete today and enjoy the level of success they attained in their sport during their time. Right or wrong this is the course that competition fosters and follows.

I bred back to a full Scotish import once and REALLY liked the pups. I bred him to my female who is very calm and tractible, and the pups were outstanding. Great looks and build, awesome coats but slower to mature than most "american" dogs (not hyper, but blossoming in hunting into their 2nd and 3rd year of hunting). In the future I will put a lot of consideration into a true British Lab... Many are still as we remember what a lab is/was suppose to be.

Back in the early 90's I went to listen to a speaker who was in charge of breedings for a seeing eye dog program. I was learning how to 'breed out' or 'in' traits in dogs. One thing that will always stick in my head is a quote I heard that evening... and it was contrary to what most American breeders practice today... "line breeding causes a slow death of any line". Yet because trialers and other breeders of 'talent' put all their energy into producing pups of high caliber, no other consideration is taken into account. Many of today's Labrador lines are line bred back generations... I am a huge proponent of outcrossing my lines. It creates Hybrid vigor and by selecting mates to compliment each other you are still dictating to an extent the outcome of the breeding. He was a bigger fan of a controlled inbreeding in lieu of a constant line breeding... (ie: father to daughter), but you would only do this once and move into an outcross on the successive litters.

There is no right or wrong answer to where we are at as a breed today. I am constantly in awe as to the level of play that they get out of dogs nowadays, they keep raising the bar, and the dogs keep clearing it. But I am slowly learning that those dogs are also becoming way out of my realm of training abilities. The Field Champion of the 50's, may not even finish a QAA or Master Hunter stake of today! I just wish the trialers would put more emphasis into what they are truely suppose to be judging... are these dogs the "BEST" of the best as field companions . Many times the judges look away at things like hard mouth, or constant fidgeting and whining on the line, or barking while running blinds or on marks etc. Many of these dogs will never hunt, not because of their 'value', but because they truley would not have the ability to do so. I've had friends who have trial dogs and they wouldn't take them duck hunting because you would drive yourself daffy doing so... but they are among the elite class of dogs running. Yet this is what the field trial is suppose to mimic and is the original purpose of the breed... waterfowl retrieving. There is no judging on the merits of upland hunting ability at a field trial... Even the hunt tests have evolved over time into quasi field trials... but that again was/is not the intent of a hunt test. It was to show that a dog can beat a set standard to attain a hunting title to show future pup owners that this pup is bred out of hunting stock and would make a great hunting prospect... but too many of the judges take it upon themselves to skirt around outside the standards to 'seperate' dogs and to shorten the field of entries to get a pre-determined (in their mind) number of dogs that qualify. I've witnessed it first hand even back in the 90's... This makes handlers move the bar of what that dog can do up higher to achieve their titles... yet the standards are still the same as they were in '88 when I ran my first hunt test! I still think this is the best place for many puppy buyers to search out their pup... from kennels that play and have played the hunt test game for many years.

I just think Joe Average needs to look further into his potential breeders and their lines before he commits to the purchase of a pup. The dog of your dreams is till out there... you just need to go look for it!

Good Luck!

Ken

[ReelTimes]

Good thoughts. I understand that one of the aspects of the british field trials that more resembles true waterfowling is that the dogs do have to sit and honor throughout the trial for long periods of time and at the same time have to be quiet without alot of movement. They're judged alot on behavior at the line but then also on the ability to retrieve and find the bird. At the same time, they need to be focused on all birds shot as they may be the next dog sent. I have seen a couple of british dogs but their lines were more show than field. They probably had acceptable traits and skills for waterfowling but overall abilities were below what I would want to have. Similar to here, there is a definite split between british field lines and show lines and I have yet to see a direct import from exclusively british field trial stock. I would like to see one.