Sunday Newspaper

[bassNspear]

I understand where you are coming from on this subject. That is a great question that alot of people cant awnser. I guess the biggest thing that you have to look at, is that your never going to have it the way that you really want it. The fact of the matter is, your always going ot have the smaller pike, yet us as anglers and spearers, we have to try and set guide lines as to what we want. I would rather see monster pike any day before smaller pike. But the thing that we have to look at, is how are we going to get all the anglers and spears to look in the same directions.

I think it was the best thing that the DNR did towards spearers is when they placed the rule "only one fish over 30 inches in limit per day." For myself, im not out there to get the monster pike all the time. Smaller population is always a better way to go if your looking to get a nice meal.

With this rule, people are only allowed to take one big fish a day. Maybe they should change it to a smaller number, but yet your still going to have people out there taking pike at 40+, and still having the same problem that we have now.

The fact of the matter is this i believe, we can have all the rules that we want, and people that spear are always going to be spearing, but realize that every rule that we have out there is not going to fit everyone in the same shape or form.

[riverrat56]

One thing that no one has brought up is this;

Spearing numbers have gone down from 50,000 to 15,000 in Minnesota over X number of years, that is what I gathered from earlier in the post, now I don't have the numbers nor was I alive back when 50,000 Minnesotans tried to poke a pike, but with a 35,000 person decrease, what effect can spearing even have, 15,000 people, thats 1.5 per lake in the Land of 10,000 that we call home.

What I'm getting at is spearers can't be the only problem, the numbers of spearers went down as the pike fishing got progressivly worse? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also there is no possible way that only the slob spearers survived the genocide that must have started with Muskies Inc.(just joking around there) So not everyone one of those 15,000 is taking every fish that loafs by.

To sum up my point, how can 1 group, as there numbers sharply drop off, have such a large impact on a reasource used by everyone?

As to why is spearing declining? Maybe people see how everyone who spears gets bashed and although they have nother against it, they don't want to open themselves up to ridicule, there is enough finger pointing going on already, why bring more on yourself from your fellow fishermen?

Yes I'm sure some unethical spears take 28-36 inch fish a day, but there are plenty of anglers taking home 8 walleyes or maybe 3 or 4 extra crappies, theres a bad apple in every bunch. Someone might have even kept a real live muskie for the wall, or (gasp) ate a limit of bass. Now the first 2 examples were over limits and illegal, shame on them, the second two were legal, shame on them also? I don't think so, were all fishermen and if it's legal we have no right to bash it.

I guess my point is that the root of the problem of the little snot rockets that invest the beautiful waters of the state does not only stem from spearfishermen, maybe you have never kept a fish before in your life, but by only catching them you also have killed some, it just happens, swallowed hooks, bleeding gills, frozen eyes. That doesn't bother me, there is no way to avoid it.

But saying that spearing has eliminated every single trophy pike in the state just isn't plausible,(maybe we should get the Mythbusters to test it?) There just isn't enough spears around anymore, and in the same time frame that fishing for pike has drastically declined, fishing pressure for them, especially through the ice has sky rocketed, anglers kill more pike than do spearers.

I don't spear, I probally never will because I don't like eating a whole lot of fish and can't clean a nothern anyhow, but I'm sick of hearing everyone bash spearing.

Everyone's in this for one reason, to have a good time, we just go about it our own ways, I really like to watch a flag pop up, some guys really like to see a fish come sneaking in only to be frustrated by it not presenting an opportunity for harvest or maybe by only sticking around long enough for a memory.

Now the fun part.....(this took me like an hour to think of)

Here is my theory, say everyone with a spearing licences is out that day, each on sees 10 fish, throws the spear at 4, hits 3, 1 shakes loose, 2 get pickeled, I count that as 3 dead fish per angler, Now say every angler is out ice fishing that day (DNR website stated 2.3 million anglers anually, I'll go with half that ice fish on said day.) Every angler has 10 bites, hooks 8, 2 spit the hook, 1 bites the hook off, 5 are landed, 1 is bleeding from the gills a bit swims off just fine, the other 4 are handled properly and released. So if we assume that 1 in every 10 of the fish that bit the line off die, and 1 in 5 that is bleeding from the gills die.

That means each angler killed .6 fish of 10 caught or 6 for every 100, which is 345,000 fish total. Of every 10 fish seen spearing, 3 are killed, or 30 for every 100 which is 45,000. So we have 390,000 dead fish, 11.5% were killed by spearers, which made up only 1.2% of the people fishing that day.

That sounds anti spearing I know, but my point that I'm trying to make, althought I lost myself in the math, is that there is more to the declining pike fishery than spearers, they are often used as the scape goat to place the blame on. After all 88.5 percent of all the pike taken in my imagionary world were lost to hook and line just by the shear numbers of hook and line anglers compared to spearers.

If you don't spear, you only need to look as far as the boat next to you or the tip up out your window, they are also impacting pike populations far more significantly than spearing.

I fish, I love to do it, but I hate it when other fishermen bash people who enjoy the same thing we do just in a bigger hole.

[Wolfpaak]

WELL SAID River Rat! I've been trying to think of that number answer/reply, myself!

Later,

Kenny

[Dan L]

Hey Riverrat. I agree that anglers have been and still are a big contributer to the way pike fishing is now. When we used to fish years ago we used to keep the bigger pike and release the small ones. I think that was very common for anglers and probably still is to a lesser degree. My big complaint with the MDHA is their unwillingness to promote regs to reverse the pike problem. As I have said before the MDHA seems to fight most efforts to improve pike populations. I have fished some lakes with the slots and they do seem to work. To say we are stuck with a stunted pike problem as in an earlier post might not be true, but it would take retrctions from anglers and spearfishermen to bring back big pike.

[Cowgirladdict]

Riverrat, i think your numbers are way off, not all people ice fishing are fishing for pike, most are targeting other species, spearers on the other hand are targeting one species, also i would say it is a lot smaller then half the 2.3 million that even ice fish, i dont have any numbers but my guess is less then a quarter of that 2.3 million, well i guess your numbers are a guess too, so im right in line there, and the last but most important thing is while fishing for Pike there is a thing called Catch and Release, and yes i agree not all make it after being caught, but there still isnt a term for Spear and Release, even tho some try it and we dont find that out till the ice goes off the lakes and they wash up on the shoreline

[bassNspear]

Im sorry, but there is no way shape or form that a spear fisherman can use the catch and release form. And if they do, it will die from the puncher of the spear.

[riverrat56]

Like stated it was hypothetical, and my point was made, spearers can't compete with fishermen in terms of fish harvested.

I agree that it seems the MDHA holds up some slots and the like, but there may be 2 main reasons for this, once you poke a fish you can't measure it and find out its to short, and since you can't realease a speared fish a limit of 1 is kind of restrictive. But they could work to comprimise, they are so well organized that even there low numbers can get things done though.

Ok to heck with it I'm done being civil about it, spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

[AWH]

Spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state? Absolutely agreed. However, IF the MDHA is upholding regulations that would improve our pike fisheries, they are having a much bigger impact than just the aspect of spearing itself. I think this (if accurate) bothers me more than anything. If we don't regulate our pike fisheries to improve the average size and eliminate the huge hammer handle populations that we see, there are two major problems. First, and most obvious, is that it does nothing for improving the average size of pike in the unregulated waters. I have never heard anyone say, "I like catching nothing but hammer handles. I'm glad this lake doesn't have bigger pike." So why do we fight regulations that would aid in improving this?

Secondly, by not implementing slots or other regulations that could improve our pike fisheries, this has an adverse effect on the entire fishery as a whole. Lakes that are over run with hammer handles are lakes that are out of balance. These are lakes that could see the entire balance of the fishery improve if we would help it along by better managing our pike fisheries.

Lake specific management with slots or whatever is needed have proven to be effective. Let's not fight regulations that would improve our fisheries because I throw a spear once in awhile.

Aaron

[Early Riser]

My understanding is that the major reason the statewide 26"-40" slot failed was becasue the majority of people did not want it, based on the DNR angler surveys.

The best solution may be the lake by lake restrictions that seem to be taking hold on a number of waters that are either out of balance or have the potential of being overharvsted.

[MJBo]

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Ok to heck with it I'm done being civil about it, spearing is not the number 1 cause of pike problems in the state, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

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You're point is completely irrelevant. No one ever stated spearers are the #1 problem for pike fisheries. They may be but no one has said it here. Fat drunken walleye fisherman who take 400 walleyes out of mille lacs are not the #1 problem for walleye fisheries in the state of minnesota. Does that mean that what they are doing is OK (questions of legality aside). No. It doesn't because they are having a DISPROPORTIONAL NEGATIVE IMPACT on the fishery. Just like spearers do.

For future referance statements like "I'm not asking you I'm telling you" don't help get you're point across more effectively, but its a pretty good way to tick people off and make them a good deal less receptive to your arguments.

[AWH]

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My understanding is that the major reason the statewide 26"-40" slot failed was becasue the majority of people did not want it, based on the DNR angler surveys.

The best solution may be the lake by lake restrictions that seem to be taking hold on a number of waters that are either out of balance or have the potential of being overharvsted.

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I'm not for a statewide specific slot either. Lake specific slots are a different story. I really believe that the vast majority of our lakes would benefit. But what's best for Lake X isn't necessarily going to be what's best for Lake Y. We already have a good start with addressing specific lake needs in the state with different regulations. We need to continue to expand on this and analyze effectiveness and need for changes as time goes by.

What puzzles me is the inability of people to look at the big picture. And I'm not picking on spearers, or anyone that has posted on this thread. I'm speaking in general, with people that have any specific interests. A common mentality is "I want X, but I'm not willing to do Y, which would help me get X."

The big picture. Sometimes you have to compromise. You can't always have it both ways. So whether it's the size structure of northern pike or anything else, you have to look at the big picture. Decide what's most important and consider what effects your decisions, regulations, etc. are going to have on the big picture. When it comes to slots on northern pike, I really believe that opposing them has a negative trickle down effect that very few (if any) people want.

Aaron

[riverrat56]

I'll just disregard that because I really don't care, if you spent the time to read this whole post, you would notice that ever anti spearing person has implied that spearing is causing all the problems.

And I also really don't care if I offended you. Sorry if my smart @ss comments have ruined your day, but hearing everyone bash spearing ruined mine.

AWH, I agree, MDHA shouldn't be upholding things as all those hammer handles do put entire lakes out of balance, I was only trying to look at the other side of the issue from there point of veiw. Following a slot when spearing you would need to be sure that fish is alot bigger or alot smaller, furthering the size of the slot for spearers.

[Central Bassman]

lol....We are still talkin about this!!!

[bassNspear]

The fact of the matter people is that everyone is going to have a different look at everything when it comes o this topic. We can sit here and go on for days about this topic, and it will never be the same when your looking at all the different anglers that are out there. Fisherman are always going to look at it different the spearing fisherman.

Fact of the matter is, there is never going to be a point in time where we are all going to be looking at it the same way.

[AWH]

Actually, I think we are all much more on the same page than we realize. For the most part, we want the same thing. We want the fisheries to be healthy and well balanced. It's the "how do we get there" and "what are we willing to sacrafice" that gets in the way, unfortunately. This is where I wish we would let the DNR do their job and not try to interfere. Offering our opinions and feedback to the DNR is great. And they should listen to that feedback and take it into consideration. But they shouldn't let it get in the way of doing their job and doing what's best for our fisheries. That's what we pay them for. If we aren't going to let them do that we may as well eliminate their positions and put everything to a vote. Whatever shows to be the popular opinion is what goes. This is a scary, scary thought....

Aaron

[Central Bassman]

YUPPER...BnS

[Central Bassman]

We will spear no matter what anyone says... SO whats the point!!!!!

[AWH]

I'm not saying that spearing should be eliminated. What I am saying is that in order to get where almost everyone wants to get to (quality northern pike fisheries), we need to change what we're currently doing. This includes both spearing AND angling practices. This is the point.

Aaron

[buzzin for bass]

AWH, I agree with you completely. As for your earlier post about people not willing to look at the big picture, it's called "delayed gratification". If I let this fish go/swim through now it will be bigger when I catch/throw a spear at it next year. As much as I love America, we Americans tend not to be very good at delayed gratification in any aspect of our lives.

It is sad that this thread has become much like politics in general these days. Both "sides" agree on 90% of this issue: everyone wants the opportunity go out and get (read catch or spear) large pike with some frequency and most would like that opportunity to stick around for their children. However, everyone seems to focus on the 10% that divides them. It seems that if a musky fisherman says "slots" the spearer says "slots will ruin my sport" and if a spearer says "I watched ten fish swim by today without even throwing the spear" the musky fisherman says "but the one time you threw the spear at the 11th fish you killed it".

Both sides need to focus on what will help them each get what they want in a fair manner. For instance, maybe instead of imposing a single slot limit on lake "X" there could be two, 26-40 for anglers (who have the benefit of pulling out the tape and checking acurately before deciding to harvest) and a second of 28-38 for spearers (who are forced by the nature of the sport to make an educated guess at the fish's length based upon past experience, water depth, etc.). Now obviosly that result may not be perfect, but it seems relatively fair and a lot better for a lake that would benefit from a slot than no slot limit at all.

And by the way I can already see the responses of it being impossible to enforce, but I would argue that it would be no more difficult than any current slot. If the fish has a spear hole in it the "spearer" slot applies; if it has a hook mark in the mouth the "angler" slot applies. Make no mistake, some people would try to take advantage of this, i.e. spear a pike after catching it on a hook, but those same people are breaking the law now by overharvesting, etc.

by the way, off topic, AWH, thanks for the quick service. I was very impressed by the prices and quick turn around time on my recent order.

[terrible_fisherman]

I spear during the winter whenever I am on the lake. This year the only angling that I did was before spear season opened and I am sure I will do some after the spearing season ends. Personally, I would rather see a half dozen 20-25 inch fish because I will throw at a couple of those and actually have something to eat versus seeing two pike over 28 which I will not throw at anyway but scare away all my little friends and harrass my sucker minnow.

The point is, that everybody has their own opinion. It is silly to assume that just because you see something in some way that everybody else should as well.

[AWH]

Buzzin,

You're welcome. Glad you found the site! Nice post too. I don't think there's any legitimate reason why a spearer (or angler) should think slots are a bad thing. They should really effect very little in how we go about enjoying our sport and will only enhance future opportunities. If there's obstacles to get around with the slots, I'm sure those can be overcome. Whether it's similar to what you suggested or by other means.

Aaron

[AWH]

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I spear during the winter whenever I am on the lake. This year the only angling that I did was before spear season opened and I am sure I will do some after the spearing season ends. Personally, I would rather see a half dozen 20-25 inch fish because I will throw at a couple of those and actually have something to eat versus seeing two pike over 28 which I will not throw at anyway but scare away all my little friends and harrass my sucker minnow.

The point is, that everybody has their own opinion. It is silly to assume that just because you see something in some way that everybody else should as well.

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Was I assuming too much when I said that we all want the same thing, healthy and well balanced fisheries? I hope not.

If you're referring to my comment where I said, "What I am saying is that in order to get where almost everyone wants to get to (quality northern pike fisheries), we need to change what we're currently doing."....That's why I threw in the word "almost" because I know not everyone cares about quality northern pike fisheries. However, northern pike have the single biggest impact on our lakes in terms of healthy and well balanced fisheries. Which brings me back to my belief that we all want the same thing. It gets back to looking at the big picture and determining "how we get there".

I absolutely respect your feelings of wanting to see the smaller fish when you're out spearing. In my opinion, this is what spearing should be about...taking the smaller fish for the table and letting the bigger ones swim. Luckily for people that feel as you do, there will always be plenty of lakes with populations of smaller fish. There's no way that we will ever be able to turn all of our lakes into lakes that can sustain larger populations of big northern pike. Some lakes simply aren't capable of this.

Aaron

[Jackpine Rob]

Several years ago I sent an e-mail to Ron Payer at the DNR discussing what was then a proposal to put some slot limits on northerns on a couple of lakes in NE Minnesota. I spear one of those lakes, and my Dad spears on a couple of others.

I agreed with the concept of the slot limit, and suggested to Mr. Payer that perhaps spear fishermen would be more receptive to slots if some sort of system could be implemented which would excuse an honest mistake. What I suggested was an "oops!" tag, or maybe even two, be given out to those spear fishermen who operate on slot lakes. If a guy guesses wrong and hits a protected fish, he would have to fill out the tag - date, time, and size, and turn the tag in to the DNR. An honest mistake wouldn't make a guy an outlaw.

The reply I got from Mr. Payer literally boggled my mind. He reported that such a system had been considered, but they decided not to do it. Why? Because they felt that spear fishermen would TRY to fill their tags, and use the tags as an excuse to intentionally kill protected fish.

Nice attitude! I felt real good about contacting the DNR, and even better about how those in power viewed the low-lifes (like myself) who are out on the lake.

I have gotten pretty good at judging sizes, and basically won't throw at anything I consider to be even close to the slot. One thing I did was to take an aluminum pipe, put marks on it for the protected fish, and hung it so it was just flush with the bottom of the ice. It was a nice visual reference while getting used to the slot. However, given the number of tickets issued to guys who actually have their hands on the fish and a ruler to work with (think Red Lake), you can see the problem with guessing on a slimer sitting 5 or even 8 feet down the hole!!

[Early Riser]

There has been some discussion of using a tag system for anglers and spearfishers allowing for the harvest of several fish in the slot or over the slot per season.

[bassNspear]

how would it work for spear fisherman

[Stiff]

I was also thinking about a "tag system" for mis-judged fish. I think it's a great idea! and I'm glad to hear that it is part of the discussion.

Even if the idea was abused (and I'm not suggesting it should be - but it's likely would be), a guy would still be limited to that number of fish within the slot per year (like 1-3) - rather than one fish over 30" per day.

I think it would be a great step towards getting the spears to start judging size and targeting smaller fish.

Also, I'm glad to see the folks who are critcal of the spear guys point out that they don't really have a problem with spearing itself - just the harvest of fish that have turned the corner from being snakes, and are on thier way to being 40 inchers (regardless of how they are taken).

[bassNspear]

I would not mind to have a taging system, but the question that i have is how will it work?

[Stiff]

You would be issued a small number of tags with your spearing liscense - and the DNR would implement a protected slot. 26-40" is what we have talked about here, but it could be whatever the DNR proposes.

Then we would do our best to judge the size of fish - and avoid fish within the slot. In the event that a fish was accidentally misjudged and havested within the slot. That fish would need to be tagged and reported.

That way we spears would be encouraged to become better judges of size and do what we can to avoid the slot because it would preserve our tags for when we needed them.

[Cowgirladdict]

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Also, I'm glad to see the folks who are critcal of the spear guys point out that they don't really have a problem with spearing itself - just the harvest of fish that have turned the corner from being snakes, and are on thier way to being 40 inchers (regardless of how they are taken).

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Perfectly said