Sunday Newspaper

[Dan L]

Good post Pikeking. I could not agree more. I think for the most part spear fisherman do take alot of big pike. I think there is alot of talk about letting the big ones go but it's mostly talk. Also I realize from reading these post there are some spear fisherman that do use selective harvest. As I stated in another topic it is frustrating to see all this talk of letting the big ones go then when it comes to slot limits on pike the Darkhouse Assosiation fights everyone of these attempts to produce a healthier pike population. Every time a regulation comes up for review they want it ended. It's unfortunate that the Darkhouse Assosiation fights the attepts to grow bigger pike because they could be a big part in the solution to bring back big pike since they are a strong organization. I tink this is a major reason for the dislike some anglers have for spearing. By the way I like the 26" to 40" slot also.

[bassNspear]

It might be going down in popularity within the next few years, but the fact of the matter is, the people that have loved it for over years and years, are still going to do it. And when it does go down, the pike will only get bigger for you muskie fisherman.

[Muskiefool]

The entire point of the article was meant to start the assault on the 27 designated Muskie Lakes and their dreams of decimating every trophy pike in MN, then complaining about restrictions to mend their destruction, Trophy Pike outnumber trophy Muskie 3-1 in these lakes, I really wonder how many Trophy Pike lakes there are that are not on the designated Muskie lake list, and don't say Red because we all know you can't see 2 feet into the water or they would be looking at a hammer handle haven there too.

[bassNspear]

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I think for the most part spear fisherman do take alot of big pike. I think there is alot of talk about letting the big ones go but it's mostly talk. Also I realize from reading these post there are some spear fisherman that do use selective harvest. As I stated in another topic it is frustrating to see all this talk of letting the big ones go then when it comes to slot limits on pike the Darkhouse Assosiation fights everyone of these attempts to produce a healthier pike population. Every time a regulation comes up for review they want it ended. It's unfortunate that the Darkhouse Assosiation fights the attepts to grow bigger pike because they could be a big part in the solution to bring back big pike since they are a strong organization. I tink this is a major reason for the dislike some anglers have for spearing. By the way I like the 26" to 40" slot also.

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what do you mean by the part that you said about the Minnesota Darkhouse

[spearman]

It makes me mad that all of us spears get a bad rap for doing something we all love to do. I have been spearing since i was about 10 and I will admit Ihave seen big fish but the biggest fish I have ever speared was 11 lbs when I was 13 yrs old I get more of a thrill watching the big pike chase the decoys around than killing them. I like to think that I'm letting them go so someday my kids will be able to do this awesome sport that I love to do.

[bassNspear]

thats what its all about right there.

[RK]

Hiya -

OK guys - let's cool the rhetoric down on this thread. I really don't want to have to dust it.

I've said it before several times. Spearing and pike management is one of the most complicated issues in fisheries management in the state.

Several posts have questioned what effect harvesting large pike (by ANY method - let's be clear about that up front. Personal opinion, but I don't like hook and line harvest of big pike any more than I like seeing them speared, and the effect on the resource is the same - dead is dead) has on a fishery. I'll try and give a brief explanation.

Pike are in a lot of respects two fish in one. A mature, larger pike, over 25", is a far different fish than a 20-incher. In lakes with healthy pike populations (good distribution of fish throughout the size ranges), larger pike are an important population control on small pike. Some of that has to do with competition for forage, some of it with predation (cannibalism is quite common), and some of it with their bioenergetics and maturity rates. In lakes with stunted pike, fish mature rapidly and can start spawning in only a couple years.

The use of special and experimental regulations on pike in Minnesota, plus research from other states, and other countries, has shown pretty clearly that a key factor in developing quality pike populations in lakes with the capacity to sustain them (forage, cool water refugia, etc.) is protecting mid-size pike in the 24-30 inch range as they make the jump to larger forage. From there, the connection with angler behavior isn't rocket science. With no medium size pike, there are no big pike. With no big pike, the population control they exert on small pike doesn't happen.

The problem is anglers are extremely size-selective with pike. Anglers just don't keep 18-20 inchers. Given the option, they keep the 24-inch plus pike. Precisely the ones that are so vital to developing a better fishery in many lakes. It's a catch-22. I said earlier pike are two fish on one, and that's true with how anglers view them as well. In smaller sizes, they're a consumable fish. As mature large adults, they're a trophy.

I know many of the spearers on this board don't spear many larger pike. Many of the Darkhouse Assoc members I talk to tell me the same thing. I have no reason to doubt that's true. But not everyone who spears is as conscientious. If intensely speared, spearing CAN have a detrimental effect on a pike fishery. In some cases, spearing has a far higher effect on the fishery than angling for pike. Take one example: a creel survey from a lake in Northern MN showed that spearing was 2% of the angling effort directed at pike. That 2% accounted for 25% of the pike harvest in terms of the number of fish taken. In terms of WEIGHT of fish taken, spearing accounted for a full 52% of the pike harvest recorded during the survey. 2% of the effort, 52% of the harvest. Individual practices may vary, and many spearers certainly practice what they preach in terms of watching the big ones swim by, but you DO have to consider the effect of the ACTIVITY AS A WHOLE in terms of its potential effects on a fishery. Not doing so is simply sticking your head in the sand.

Like I've said in several other posts, I'm really torn when it comes to spearing. I grew up sitting in a spear house with my grandfather, with a rope around my ankle in case I took a header down the hole (only happened once...). I get the thrill, and the history. It's my history as well. But, if practiced in a way that affects the fishery in a negative way, I'm less charitable about it. When it stands in the way of better pike management (opposition to special regs, etc.,) then I really start to question it. It really becomes a complicated deal.

Keep discussing, but keep it civil, or the thread goes poof...

Cheers,

Rob Kimm

[Dan L]

Hi Bass N Spear. What I mean is that in every meeting I have attended on special regs there has been the Minnesota Darkhouse Assosiation there to oppose the regulations. It seems like when a writer in the outdoors papers write an article about a meeting on pike regs I read that the MDHA is there to oppose the regs. When I call the area DNR area supervisors they mention the they have a very hard time getting and keeping pike regs in place and it seems like they mention the MDHA is opposed and they are very well organized. Bass N Spear correct me if I am wrong. If it is true that is the problem I have with the MDHA. As far as the sport of spearing I don't have a problem with it. It just seems to me that they are an obstacle to getting big pike. Again let me know if I am misinfromed.

I love to pike fish but in most Minnesota waters it is a waste of time for me. There is too many small pike and very few big pike. I have had the oppurtunity to fish some slot lakes and they have been impressive. If what I am hearing is true it sure would be nice to see the MDHA be more of an allie when it comes to promoting trophy pike waters.

[Central Bassman]

Hey RK, Make a spearing page so we can have it to are selfs and not with the muskies guys!!!

[Pikeslayer]

I would sure like that idea.That way a person wont have to worry about getting heckled when you have a question about spearing!

[Central Bassman]

yupper!!!

[RK]

Hiya -

Adding a new forum is above my pay grade...you'd have to go to Rick.

But personally, I'd be against it.

Why? Because I think part of the problem spearers have had, and part of the conflict between them and muskie anglers in general, is because they two groups DON'T interact. Isolating each group would allow us to continue pretending there's no controversy, no disagreement between differing interests.

The reality is both camps have a lot more in common than in conflict, and the only way the conflicts we DO have are going to be resolved is by discussing them and hammering things out. That isn't always a pretty process.

Frankly I think the Strib article that featured Schnitker did spearing a disservice in terms of getting along with muskie anglers. If you want tp pick a fight with muskie guys, tell them you want to spear on the ban lakes. The argument that more muskies die from delayed mortality than would be speared is an utterly empty case. One is the unintended but inevitable consequence of catching fish. The other is an illegal act under ANY circumstances. Saying that muskies never get speared is equally false. If you doubt that, I have some photos to show you. One fisheries manager told me that on one northern MN muskie lake where spearing is allowed, 14% of the muskies they trap-netted showed spear wounds. Those are the ones that lived... It gets back to my point earlier...many spearers may be utterly ethical, and I don't doubt that in the least. But you can't pretend the unethical behavior doesn't happen, and that it shouldn't be acknowledged and accounted for.

I really think that those issues need to be discussed between the interested parties. Sending each to their own corners doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Cheers,

Rob Kimm

[bassNspear]

I understand where your coming from. The ASSC is loking to always help the pike population in any way they can. Dont get me wrong on that, there not there to beat up on the pike population.

As far as the big pike, they want the pike population to get better and better each year. They do love the monster pike, and the reason that you might think that they are always taking the bigg pike out of the waters, is becuase there always talking about the biggest one they have ever speared.

I was talking to a guy that is a member like myself, and we were talking about how we try and not take a big one everytime out. Reason for this is by taking the smaller pike out of the lake, its going to help the population of the lake with taken smaller pike out. Like RK said, if your a spear fisherman, and always taking the big pike out of the lake, the smaller population si going to take over the lake and get way out of control.

I understand where your coming Dan.

[Hooliganz]

...man lots of reading to get here. To reply to the first post about why it is declining. I agree with most, people are lazy, think too much work for a pike when they can just put out a tip up and get one. I would have to argue that spearing is alot cheaper than angling. You dont need a Vexilar, just a cheap lead weight will do. Also Walleye and panfish is just what more people like to fish for. Just wanted to say that I spear and grew up around it and will continue to do so and bring kids along. I am a member now to MDHA. I have not been able to get out this year at all. Kids have been keeping me busy

[bassNspear]

man u need to get out. your missing out

[Pikeslayer]

You got it backwards!Your saposed to keep the kids busy!

[Hooliganz]

ya I know, I should say wife has been keeping me busy watching the kids , one not a year old yet so hard to take them with.

[Pikeslayer]

Bass n Spear What do you mean can you ice fish in a spearhole? I angle in my house every day when Im not spearing! Dont let these muskyhuggers get your line in a knot! They say were doing nothing but killing pike, But do they pay an extra seventeen bucks for a musky license,Not that I know of!!

[Pikeslayer]

10000 casts IS it legal to spear in north dakota (Im talking pike not carp)?

[Pikeslayer]

I know what your talking about,I used to have to give most my fish to the grandparents just so I could go!!

[10,000 Casts]

Pikeslayer,

Yes you can spear in ND but some lakes do have restrictions.

One thing that you have to remember is that Sucker minnows are illigal in ND so no live decoys.

John

[Pikeslayer]

What are some of the laws about spearing pike in ND?

[Dan L]

Hey Bass N Spear. You say the MDHA is always doing anything they can to help the pike population. I know they don't like slots. What are some of their ideas and efforts to produce bigger pike for Minnesota? Always like to hear what others have to say. As far as smaller pike taking over a lake I think the vast majority of Minnesota lakes have already been overrun by small pike. Good luck to ya.

[bassNspear]

You might be right that most of the lakes in Minnesota are taking over by the smaller pike population. But i do know that there are alot of lakes out there that you cant even go out and caught one pike in it. I know its alot different depending on what lake you are on. MDHA wants to be able to have all the lakes have a great population of pike it each lake. We not here to clean out every lake and not have any pike out there at all, becuaes then you will never see anyone out spearing or tip up fishing. They want the pike population to keep growing, and there making efforts to help the population all across the state.

[dstrey]

I do not believe spearers are more to blame than the anglers for the stunted pike populations. I can't remember how many times I have been out on the ice to see a person pull up a 28+ in northern on a tip up and just throw it on the ice. I don't spear but do pike fish a lot and would like to see people that spear and pike or musky fishermen working together instead of figiting. Spearing is a tradition in minnesota and it is nice to see traditions continue. Both spearing and angling can happen in a good way for a lake but not by blaming every body else. Nobody is happy about the decline of trophy fish.

[Stiff]

Yeah, I think the guys who are writing in don’t really have a problem with the angling method (spearing). They have a problem with the harvest of medium to large sized pike.- regardless of how they are harvested. If there were tip up guys posting photos of pike they had clearly kept in that upper twenty to upper thirty inch range – I think these same guys would have the same complaints.

I think they have valid points. If you want a fishery that has 40 inch pike, the best way to do that is to refrain from killing them when they are smaller than that. That said, some harvest of smaller fish only helps the 30 inch class fish grow bigger faster.

I think B420 nailed it earlier when he stated his personal range that he doesn’t harvest is 26-40 inches. I think many us would do well to follow his lead. When a pike grows into the upper 20’s, he starts to become more significant to the lake as an individual – both as a predator and as an angling target. He becomes more valuable to preserve.

I think those of us who are lucky enough to find ourselves on the water frequently really need impose size limits on ourselves, and perhaps the more you get out, the more strict you should be with yourself (???). It’s a responsible thing to do. If we fail to do it ourselves, and the common goal is more and larger pike, then we shouldn’t be surprised when the laws change to support that goal by way of protected slots.

Some of the “Spearing Crowd” is pretty vocal and enthusiastic. I think that is awesome and they are a great asset to anyone visiting here who wants to learn more about spearing. People who are willing to share their knowledge are perhaps the most valuable thing about these forums.

But some of the “Large Pike Advocates” are basically calling them hypocrites because these same guys that claim to support the “Large Pike Effort”, and advocate taking smaller pike and letting the big ones swim. Yet they admit taking mid 30 inch range pike, post photos of these fish, and offer congratulation to people who have harvested fish in this range. (I’ve done it too) But, I can see where Large Pike Advocates would point out the two things don’t match up.

No question that it’s a legal choice to take those fish – it’s just maybe not the best choice – especially when it’s done time and again.

[Dan L]

Yeah I agree. If I see a upper 20's or bigger pike come up to the fish shack in the summer I have the same reaction. I think what for. There are so many smaller pike in a lake for good eating.

[B420]

Right on the money Stiff!

[AWH]

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You might be right that most of the lakes in Minnesota are taking over by the smaller pike population. But i do know that there are alot of lakes out there that you cant even go out and caught one pike in it. I know its alot different depending on what lake you are on. MDHA wants to be able to have all the lakes have a great population of pike it each lake. We not here to clean out every lake and not have any pike out there at all, becuaes then you will never see anyone out spearing or tip up fishing. They want the pike population to keep growing, and there making efforts to help the population all across the state.

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This strategy is great if you want to maintain what we have in the state, which is an abundance of small pike. Higher pike populations are not going to help with the quality (in terms of size) of the pike fishery. There's a definite trade off. If you want bigger pike, the trade off is a less dense population. So if the MDHA is pushing to increase pike populations, they're pushing to diminish our opportunities to chase trophy northern pike in most waters.

So I guess the question that they need to answer is: What do they want? You can't have high populations AND trophy pike.

Aaron

[10,000 Casts]

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What are some of the laws about spearing pike in ND?

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Nothing earth shattering really except,

You have to check in with fish and game before you start the season.

You can't fish out of a spear hole, the biggest hole that you can fish out of is, I believe 10 or 12 inches.

Thats all I can think of for now

John