.270 vs .308

[Stiff]

I’ve generally always hunted deer with a shotgun or a muzzle loader, but recently I’ve changed hunting areas and now I have the opportunity to use a high powered rifle. I’ve used my fathers .308 to get started, but I think it’s about time to consider getting my own rifle.

I plan to use it mainly for hunting whitetails in MN and WI, but I can see that I would like to join some friends out west for antelope and / or mule deer at some point.

So, the question is: “ what should I get?”. I think I have it narrowed down to either a .308 or a .270. I’m leaning towards a Winchester M-70 featherweight, but I’m curious if others have any suggestions or recommendations. Lastly, any consideration to the barrel length? Seems like most are 24 or 26 inches, but I did see a .308 the other day with a 22 inch barrel.

What else should I be considering?? Bullet weight?? Effective range?? What else?

[leechlake]

Stiff, if you get a ballistics chart there are numerous calibers that will work for you. you mentioned two, there are several others also. The 308 is a great caliber (I'd pick that one) the 270 is also. There is a recent article in the American Hunter (the nra magazine) questioning the accuracy of the 270. Target shooters and custom rifle makers rarely choose the 270 apparantly. I would bet though that both calibers will shoot more accurately than most people take the time to learn and practice. Don't forget 7mm-08 which I believe is basically a .28 caliber bullet on a .308 length case with a bit lighter recoil. Any shooting experts feel free to clean up my post.

[DrKen]

Either caliber would work just fine for you. So would many other calibers. Both are also just fine for elk. I grew up in Montana and both were popular calibers. When you are buying only 1 rifle for multipurpose it gets a bit more difficult. Long range flat rifles with punch usually are heavier and have longer barrels, Carbines tend to have lighter calibers, shorter barrels and less range. Fact is most shots will be under 100 yds, even elk and antelope so most will do fine. It will be more important for you to know your rifle and be proficient with it. Also, do not rule out the 06. It's been around a long time and is available in a wide variety of loads and ammo can be bought just about anywhere. The .270 is just a necked down version of the o6 and the .308 is a shortened version developed for the M14. As far as accuracy, all will be good enough for hunting. Barrel length will affect velocity depending on the load and powder. Longer barrels are generally used in longer range calibers for the increased velocity. Generally, speaking the larger the volume of the cartridge case the longer the barrel needs to be for maximum velocity. Again, in most hunting situations the velocity drop will not affect you. Just buy a rifle that you like and learn what ammo shoots good in it and practice with it. Another good idea is to get a .22 set up as nearly identical as you can for practice and shoot it. I have a Pre 64 model 70 fwt and a ruger 77-22 set up identical(scopes, slings, safeties etc) so it's all 2nd nature to shoot it. I use the .22 constantly on ground squirrels out west and squirrels and grouse here. Being able to put the shot where you want it is most important fact in hunting. Good luck

[lawdog]

I agree with both Leechlake and DrKen and I would by no means claim to be an expert on many calibers and ballistics of all, but my thoughts on this are more from a practical standpoint since as the others mentioned all the guns discussed are adequate.

I am a 30-06 shooter for a couple reasons. One as DrK mentioned its a well developed round having been around for so long. There are an almost infinite number of load options available and the regular deer shells are EVERYWHERE and generally not real expensive. In our party in wisconsin there are probably 8 or 9 '06's out of 13 guns.

I do think its a little better all around shell though too. A lot of people will tell you the .270 is too small for elk for instance but almost all would agree a 30-06 is adequate (although neither probably the ideal elk only gun).

That being said, I also think regardless of caliber that the most important thing is having a gun you are comfortable with and know thoroughly. Putting GOOD glass on top of it with an adjustable power setup (2x7 or 3x9 probably) is also a definite help for good flexibile use. A .270, .308, 30-06, .243, .280, .300 even a 22-250 will ALL put deer down when the shot is true, as will many other rounds.

I wonder, how did you settle on these two? I bet 2/3 of the deer guns sold are either a 30-06 or a 7mm and you don't list either as an option... Just curious how you got to ".270 or .308?" in the first place???

[buzzsaw]

I have a Browning A-bolt gold medalion hunter 270 WSM (Winchester Short mag) the ballsitics on this gun are awesome! If you take a 30-06 and a 270 WSM and they are both sighted in at 100 yards... the dropoff at 300 yards for the 30-06 is 18 inches and the 270 WSM is 8 inches.... the 270 flies faster and is more accurate than the 30-06's... I don't know much about the 308's. I'd look into the WSM's and ask the experts opinions on this matter. (I'm no expert) Good luck!

[Mr Special]

Both of those rounds should work just fine. I have friends out west and those two are the more popular rounds. Again bullet placement is the most important factor. I actually own a Remi 700 in 243 with a 24" barrel. Some of the buds out west love this round for deer size game but say it's too small for Elk. Remington has a pretty cool site that offers bullet comparisons.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm

Good luck hope this helps

[DrKen]

Just a couple of more thoughts. As stated spend good money on optics, at least as much as on the rifle. One caution about the magnums. Recoil and noise are the main causes of flinching. This results in poor accuracy and wounded game. By sighting in about 2" high at 100, you are on at about 200 and 6" low about 275. This allows you to hold dead on out to 275yds. Most of us should not be shooting out any further than that. It is difficult to accurately estimate ranges, and you must use a range finder and know your particular round and rifle. A incorrect estimate of range as little as 10-25 yards can result in a wounded animal or hopefully a complete miss. The fact is that most hunters offhand accurate range with a rifle is 75-100 yds and with a rest maybe 250yds. As responsible hunters, thus we have a choice, have the proper equipment and knowledge of our firearm,cartridge combo to take the longer shots along with the practice required to sucessfully take the shot or have the discipline to limit our shots to those that we can take. I regularly practice with my deer rifle out to 200 yards but won't shoot much beyond that. In fact, the furthest I have ever had to shoot at a deer was 75yds. However, I don't hunt plains type of terrain for deer. The fact of the matter is a heavy recoiling,loud magnum cannot make up for poor marksmanship or poor hunting ability. Most hunters, and I include myself, are incapable of making a accurate, killing shot much beyond 200 yards in actual hunting conditions. Adrenaline, fatigue, poor shooting positions all add up quickly. Thus, pick a rifle you like, put great optics on it, and practice. They will all do the job.

[freighttrain50]

i would have to go with the .308. i have been shooting my dads lever action w/ open sights for years and absolutely love it. its a great all around gun. personally i would choose the 308 but thats jsut my 2 cents.

Train

[bigdog]

I shoot a .270, my brother shoots a .308. Either will work fine, I chose the .270 figuring it would have a bit less recoil. He chose the .308 thinking there were more options for reloading. I use 150gr Nosler partitions, he uses 165gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Both guns are Remington bolt actions, out to 200yds accuracy is equivilent.

[deeky]

I have shot .270 and .30-06, but am not quite as familiar with the .308. But doesn't that seem a little big for antelope? They are by no means as large as a white tail. I agree that the .270 is small for elk unless you are an amazing marksman, but Stiff didn't say anything about elk - just white tail, muleys, and antelope. I hit a doe running this year with the .270 and I didn't even see her fall she hit so hard. Should deffinitely be able to load a .270 with a lighter grain bullet for antelope. Just my thoughts - I love my .270!

[Jackpine Rob]

If you're not going to be shooting elk or moose, you may want to consider one of the quarter bores, like the 25-06 or the newer 25 WSM. The ballistics on the 25-06 are very attractive, and it is a proven performer. In addition, the recoil is fairly light. Spend some time with the ballistics chart linked to above, and you can winnow out the various calibers, based on what YOU are looking for.

When I was antelope hunting this fall, I saw a number of the beasts that were literally ripped in half by the larger calibers - basketball-sized exit wounds, etc. For that hunt, I opted for the 22-250 and had excellent bullet performance, and an antelope that took 4 steps and keeled over. Granted, that caliber is not legal for big game in some western states, but contrary to popular belief, I do think that some guys head out with too much gun. Being comfortable when making the shot is much more important than almost anything else in rifle shooting.

[nuts]

Ask 10 different people which caliber you should buy, and you will get 10 different answers. You should just buy them both!

I shoot a .308 and love it. I've taken it out west and shot mule deer, numerous whitetails up north, and this fall I dropped a 45" bull moose with it. Now, could I have done all that with a .270? Yes. A .300? Yep. A 7mm? You betcha.

Shot placement is more important than caliber. Find one you like and as stated before, put some quality glass on it, and practice. With what you said you were going after, either one will work great.

[Stiff]

Wow! This is almost as good as Christmas. Thanks for all the great input and advice. Some of you have echoed thoughts that were already in my head, and others have given me new things to think about.

I think I know the answer to this question already, but I'll ask it anyway and see what you all have to say on the subject...

"What are your thoughts on scopes?"

This is really very unfamiliar territory for me. I sure appreciate all your thoughts.

[lawdog]

I tried to hit on this before in my post. BUY GOOD ONES. I like Leopolds and Nikons only because I can't afford the Swarovski's and Zeiss' I'd like to have. Skip the $39.99 bargain bin junk and buy a decent one.

I have a Leuopold Vari-X II on my deer rifle and a Nikon ProStaff on my deer shotgun. Both are good quality for the price.

If you are going to be using this in different places and situations, I REALLY like the flexibility of variable power scopes. A fixed 4 power though is cheaper and probably would cover 70% or more of your shooting (just not the best for short shots in the woods or any distance shooting). I have a 3x9 on the rifle although I used to have 2x7 which I think was just about as good. I have 2x7 on the shotgun now and that's more than adequate for that.

Still wondering how you narrowed it down to these two calibers only...

[Stiff]

Lawdog,

I wouldn't nessecarily disregard other calibers, and I'm open to suggestions and especially the justifications or rationale for the suggestions. I just thought that those two rounds were 1) popular - so ammunition would be relatively available in different bullet weights, 2) both rounds are accurate enough that I (the human factor) will probably be the limiting factor in accuracy, 3) I don't think either is TOO much gun for whitetails, but I think either is enough, 4) I want a realively light, handlable gun because I do a fair amount of short drives or still hunting in fairly heavy brush... and I didn't want too heavy of a round that would have a lot of recoil with the lighter gun, but I wanted something that could handle a mule deer (or even an elk) if and when the day comes that I get a chance to get in on one of those hunts.

That's basically it - I'm still kind of gathering information... and barely resisting the urge to go drop some cash on a light framed .308 with a short barrel.

I think I'd keep the rounds light for whitetails, but then I'd have the oppurtunity to gear up in bullet weight if I wanted to go after something bigger.

Keep the thoughts and opinions coming -

Thanks again to all.

[DrKen]

Now that you stated why you what you wanted in a rifle the decision is relatively easy. Go with the 308. This round in ideal for the type of gun you want. The 270 is not a good round for a short barreled light gun. It recoils less than a .270, is designed for a short action while the .270 is a long action. It is more than adequate for elk, particularly with the new bullets available. Normally, they come with a 1 in 10 twist and usually will prefer lighter bullets over heavier ones. Available rifles you may want to look at include the Remington Model 7, the new carbine that is like the old 600 series by Remington, the model 700 mountain rifle, the Winchester Featherweight, the Ruger ultralite, the Browning BLR( if you want a lever action) and the Savage( often the most accurate out of box production rifle and the Remington 700 ADL( full size but easy to handle and just as light) In the used rack, there are some very good rifles no longer made, the Savage 99 in various forms( if you can get one with the rotary magazine), the Remington 788( a very inexpensive gun when made but I have yet to see one that was not very accurate), the 600 and 660 by Remington( usually picked up by collectors), the Remington pump carbine and the model 100 semiauto by Winchester(again collectors jump on these)

As far as glass, I like Leupold but Burris, Bausch and Lomb( uppper level) Nikon and most others make good glass. Expect to pay $300.00 or so for a scope and use good mounts(not see through). Since you drive a lot consider a 2-7 or even a 1-4.5), If you use detachable mounts like leupolds then maybe have 2 scopes a low power and a high power. There are a lot of more expensive scopes but they only give you a little more quality for a lot more money. I've shot a 308 for almost 40 years and never had a deer go more than 40 yds after being shot. You will be happy with your choice.

[Pistolero]

Stiff,

I personally would go with the 308. I have a 270, 308, 30-06 and a 338 Win Mag and like all of them. But the 308 is a short action, less recoil and with the right ammunition, can take everything you listed. Also barrel length can become a real pain in heavy woods/brush. My 30-06 has a 22" barrel and my 338 Win Mag has a 26" barrel with a “BOSS” system (muzzle brake), that extra four plus inches make getting around more challenging. There are a lot of great calibers to choose from, I hope that you find the one that fits you.

As far as TOO much gun, I have seen more damage done with my 308, than I have with my 338 Win Mag. I think that a lot of the damage depends on the type of bullet used, it’s velocity, what it hits (bone) and where it is placed. IMHO.

Jackpine Rob,

What type of bullet do you use to take your antelope? Was it a factory load or handload?

[nuts]

Stiff -

I would say that as far as scopes go, you should stay away from Bushnell. I had one on my rifle when I started hunting with it (15 or so years ago) and could never shoot a good group. I always figured it was just me, but eventually I got so frustrated that I took it off, rings and all, sucked it up, and dropped the money for a Zeiss 3x9 with Leupold rings.

I made that decision, and now I can group bullets so tight at 100 yards that the holes are usually touching. And talk about dependable.

A couple of years ago, after I unloaded my gun I started climbing out of my stand and I dropped my gun. It fell some 15' before it hit the ground and my heart just sank. After checking the gun for serious damage (miraculously, there was none), I thought for sure the fall knocked the scope off. So I took it to the range and that Zeiss was still right on!

My dad shoots a Leupold Vari X III, and that is a nice scope as well.

[Stiff]

All of this discussion has been really helpful. I’d also like to point out that “Thomas” posted the following link in response to this same question over on the “deer, bear, moose, varmints, trapping” forum.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm

...and that site is an absolute wealth of information.

I know you guys are going to laugh at me, but I think I have a new problem. All this talk and reading is really good, but the final decision will ultimately be made with the right gun actually in hand just because it feels right. With that in mind I went to confirm my thoughts at the gun shop last night. I picked up the Winchester M70 Featherweight in .308.. - dark wood, 22inch barrel, smooth safety, pre ’64 action and it’s priced low!! AND since it’s on clearance, take an additional $50 bucks of the already low price.. Perfect.

Right up to the point that I picked up a Kimber, which I’d never heard of before. Unbelievable... I felt like I could carry that gun the rest of my life and never really notice it was there. It weighs a mere 5.5 lbs! And the wood is gorgeous – hand rubbed oil finish. I wish I’d never picked it up. I figured the light weight would be a pretty bad thing for the accuracy of the gun, but then I find out that each one is test fired and doesn’t get out of the factory unless it shoots 1 inch groups or less.

It is $270 more than the Winchester, which could be put towards some pretty nice optics if I chose the Winchester instead.... And I know the Winchester (or Remington, etc.) will do everything I want it to just fine for less money.

I feel some sort of sickness setting in... Someone please talk some sense back into me.

[Pistolero]

The Kimber is an excellent gun and worth the price! IMHO

[DrKen]

If you like the Kimber and can afford it, buy it. It is modified pre64 winchester type action, great workmanship and they are beautiful. Would like to have one myself. they make a superb .22 also.

[Jackpine Rob]

I was researching a new rifle myself a couple of months ago, and if you are looking for a lightweight rifle you might wish to check out the Tikka T3 Lite. The reviews are outstanding on the Tikka products, and the price is certainly attractive.

Keep in mind that as you "downsize" your gun you will be sacrificing some fps - each inch of barrel will translate into so many fps as compared with the ballistics tables, which mostly rely on standard 24 or 26 inch barrels.

Pistolero - the 22-250 was loaded with some 55 grn PSP that I had a friend cook up for me, specifically geared to the gun. That particular load isn't as hot as some, but the accuracy is absolutely fantastic - a lot better than my ability to shoot. I recovered my slug from the buck, it was lodged against the skin on the far side of the chest, and the thing held together surprisingly well in light of the mess it made out of the lungs.

[lawdog]

The 22-250 is legal in some states for big game by the way. I personally stood right next to a guy as he laid n the ground with his 250 on its bi-pod and dropped a decent whitetail buck right in his tracks at about 175 yards. That deer didn't even know what hit him...

Moral of that story is I agree with Jackpine, some guys realy think they need more gun than they really do. With proper shot placement, ANY gun considered here would work more than adequately on the game being discussed.

[Pistolero]

Quote:

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Pistolero - the 22-250 was loaded with some 55 grn PSP that I had a friend cook up for me, specifically geared to the gun. That particular load isn't as hot as some, but the accuracy is absolutely fantastic - a lot better than my ability to shoot. I recovered my slug from the buck, it was lodged against the skin on the far side of the chest, and the thing held together surprisingly well in light of the mess it made out of the lungs.

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Jackpine Rob,

I have been a fan of good expansion/deep penetration bullets but I am thinking of trying a bullet that dumps all or most of it’s energy into the animal, as your load did. I’m going to work up a Nosler, Ballistic Tip, 125 grain load for my 30-06 and run some tests to see what it will do. Thanks for the info.

[lawdog]

DID YOU BUY ONE YET? WHAT DID YOU DECIDE ON???

[8-Ball]

Stiff- I am in a similar situation- just getting into hunting. Better late than never, I figure. Can you tell me where you picked up the Win.M 70, and how much was it? I assume the cost was minus a scope, right? Thanks, 8-Ball.

[Stiff]

Lawdog,

I haven't actually spent the cash, but I think I have settled on the Kimber, and I'm 95% sure I want the .308 just for the flexiblity of powering up for mule deer or elk if I needed to. My only hesitation is that right next it it on the shelf is a 7mm-08 (Kimber M-84) with a super nice piece of wood in the stock for the same money.

I'm expecting some extra cash just after the new year and I'm not in a huge rush to get this done. Also, there is a guy out in Idaho who had advertised to sell his personal gun (Kimber M-84 in .308) for $650. I'm a little leary to buy a gun without actually looking at it and meeting the guy in person, and I think he has a tentative agreement to sell to someone else at this point.

So I think I have my mind made up, I'm just gathering the extra cash at this point. I haven't really looked too closly at optics yet, but I have a feeling I'll settle on a Leupold VX (I or II ??) 3x9.

8-Ball,

That Winchester M-70 was still available last time I was up there. Personally, I think it's a pretty sweet deal. It's on close out and marked for $580 (most others are $630), but I think you get an additional $50 bucks off since it's on "close out gun" - so $530. Also, Gander is running a deal where if you buy a "close out gun", you also get 50% off your ammo up to $100.

Merry Christmas - it's up at the Gander Mtn in Forest Lake.

[8-Ball]

Hey Stiff- Thanks for info- I am heading down to metro tomorrow and hope to stop and check out the rifle at G.M. Good luck with your selection and Merry X-Mas. 8-Ball.

[Pistolero]

Quote:

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My only hesitation is that right next it it on the shelf is a 7mm-08 (Kimber M-84) with a super nice piece of wood in the stock for the same money.

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Stiff,

Tell the clerk to move the Kimber M-84, 7mm-08 to a different spot so you will not be distracted by it.

I have a couple Leupold VII’s in 3x9 and really like them. Great scope for the price.

[tripper]

Stiff, I have a Leupold 3-9 on 06 and a nikon on my 260., both are excellent scopes. The leupold will will give you more leway in eye relief but the nikon seems to be a little clearer.