Quality Deer Management

[bigbucks]

I'd be curious to know how you mean you're working on next year's hunt? I'm working on next year's hunt, as well as this year's all the time, but curious to know what you're doing to prepare.

We started building a nice permanent stand where we tried a portable a bit this year. There's a field there that's been a grass meadow for probably at least 15 years, that's been plowed & we know will have corn in next year. I saw a very large deer walk right past the portable that was there, one night while bowhunting a different nearby stand. Also I'm always scouting deer movements & looking for places to ask about hunting next fall.

[DinnerPail]

bigbucks, Like you stated in one of your earlier posts I'll be out scouting, always looking at new areas and just keeping track of what is going on in the areas we hunt. I have a place near Grand Rapids and spend as much time as I can there. A lot of the area we hunt is owned by the paper company so keeping track of the logging that goes on in a big part of how and where we hunt. We have had some great spots logged out from under us and with logging comes roads and with roads comes more hunters. I use to spend a lot of time putting up stands but have went mostly to using portables due to most times went I built a permanent stand it always seemed to be in the wrong spot. Another thing I like to watch is what they are feeding on, was there a good crop of acorns, are they feeding on buds etc. One of my biggest is to find out where people around you are hunting and if possible when. I have many times taken deer where others have hunted well after they have left and things quieted down. I also think one of the biggest factors is the weather, it makes or breaks a hunt in my opion.

I hope this helps.

[BLACKJACK]

jlm, I agree, after shooting lots of small bucks over the years, I'm ready to move onto a bigger buck. Thats why I passed on one earlier in the year, but mainly for the reason that I realize if I put my tag on the first small one I see, the opportunity to tag Mr. Big later is gone.

As others have stated, I'm scouting year around, always looking for spots, funnels, etc. I may start work on a permanent tree stand this weekend and get it out yet this year, if the weather stays good. And a scouting camera is moving farther up my wish list!! And I have a couple more spots where I want to put food plots. Always more you can do to help your deer hunting, whether its scouting, reading, etc.

[Pistolero]

Okay, do not be offended by this, but I’ve watched this thread and still see only two things being pushed here: 1) big/trophy bucks 2) convincing your neighbors to participate in the big/trophy bucks program. These still come across as being your main goals, not that that is the case but still just read what you have presented here and tell me that people are going to think any different.

My goal for where I hunt (area 245) is to reduce the herd size. The DNR estimates for 2004, was 24-43 deer per square mile in area 245. They do not tell us what deer numbers they would like to see though. Last year I took two doe’s which helped but this year I took two bucks, I thought that the second deer was a doe, I missed seeing the small horns and was not happy when I found out it was a buck. I am interested in harvesting deer and keeping the herd size at an appropriate level. I am not interested in rack size and next year I plan on shooting doe’s only.

You QDM guys stated here that if I read the information that is out there about QDM, that I will jump on the QDM bandwagon. I have read information on it and am not convinced yet, so give it your best shot and provided the links to the sites that you feel do the best job of describing the QDM Program. Okay?

[Mark Christianson]

No offense Pistolero

We each have our own wants/needs. No question.

I think I use the QDM statement incorrectly myself.

We do not practice QDM. We practice selective harvest.

Our main goal is larger bucks. Period. I won't lie.

We do not shoot antlerless deer on our farm. If one comes by wounded, we will take it. We figure there are enough deer shot on surrounding properties that we do not need to take any more out, besides "nicer bucks".

So yes, I would love for neighboring properties to think about the potential for larger bucks, and to pass on small bucks. I am not forcing my opinion on them, but we have suggested what we are doing to a couple of them. They just stand there with blank looks for the most part.

Some people deer hunt for one reason.

To shoot deer. Period. Hard to change that mentality in some, and honestly it is their choice.

My personal hope is that some people may read this and think that, "hey, I kinda like the idea of being a bit more selective, and maybe we could try this in some form."

[jlm]

I did re-read everything and am somewhat puzzled by your response/questions. More than big racks was spoke of, at least in my opinion. QDM is not for everyone, no question about that. However, many MN hunters are interested in starting better management practices on their land or in their hunting areas. This thread is intended to provide information to all of those who care to take a look at QDM. It is also intended to give those out there who practice QDM an opportunity to express their results, both good and bad. We can get ideas from one another on what is helpful and what is not. QDM is not only about big bucks as you state, its about land stewardship, population control, overall herd health, and many other practices and philosophies which are helpful in the management of deer. If you provide me with your email address, I will be more than happy to provide you with some links and actual people that you can call and ask any question you would like to ask. I for one am not trying to push QDM on anyone. This thread is only intended for anyone that is interested. Good luck all!

[Pistolero]

jlm,

Here you go.

Thanks

[jlm]

Information is sent!

[tripper]

jlm, my story is that I just do not feel that any group or groupes should be telling others what size buck they can shoot. This year my party took five deer, all bucks. My grandson (12) took a forker, his first deer and year of hunting. My son also took a forker, thought is was a doe in the brush, Another guy took a nubbin buck,he just doesn't care what he shoots if he has the tag for it. Another guy also took a nubbin thinking it was the doe he had seen go into the brush, he felt bad about that mistake. I had two doe tags one was filled and my buck tag was filled by the secound buck my son took,(8 pointer) with small rack. This was a older deer big in body but the small racks are the normal for where I hunt no matter the age. I beleif the genitics are there but outside of all the feed stations people have in the area the food is not. We have been trying to thin the does in our area but for some strange reason we just don't see any. I don't know how meny bucks were past on this season (14 days) but only two does were seen with no chance of a shot.

My personal way is that as long as I can shoot a doe or buck I will pass on smaller bucks util twards the end of season. If no tags are filled then I will put a deer of the body size I want in the freezer.

If big racks are a secoundary objective of qdm then lets hear less about them. I agree with much of what qdm stands for but I do not agree with passing laws to force my way of hunting on others, and putting point restrictions on bucks is doing just that.

Everybody wants to claim the majority agree when agueing a poin. I remembe the poll take a few years back when the qistion was asked do you want to see bigger bucks. Of coarse most people that answered yes with out thinking what was realy meant by the quistion. Why not ask do you want point restrictions enforced to try and get bigger racks?

[Cooter]

Haven't read each and every post in detail, but just glancing saw the topic of antler restrictions. Hey I'd love to see it come to WI but I don't think it could happen anytime soon. You never know though, earn a buck has been quite a drastic change - another I have no problem with.

[PikeTipper]

Isn't part of QDM reducing the doe population so that only the dominant bucks get to breed thus most of the bucks that are born are from bucks with genes to grow bigger antlers? If your goal is to have bigger bucks then I would think shooting does is in your best interest.

I too practice QDM in an area that is a "brown it's down" mentallity but I figure every small buck I pass up on is one more that might survive until the next year. I definately agree though that this should not be a govt. regulation but a personal choice. When my son is old enough to hunt I want him to be able to shoot at anything just to get the experience and have some success.

[Mark Christianson]

I think partly you are correct Pike.

I don't even claim to know the "ins/outs" of QDM, but believe me.... The guys around us do PLENTY to thin the deer herd. I don't want to add to the list of does shot, and end up with an even slimmer population of does. Personally I like the idea of having a few "extra" does living any way. I have this stigma that if there are does around, bucks will come.

To your point about genetics though.

There are 3 vitals in big buck growth.

1. Age

2. Nutrition

3. genetics

From what I have read and seen, this is the order of importance to acheive larger bucks.

Is it scientifically proven in that order? I have no idea, but its what I have chosen to adopt for my management efforts.

I have a direct influence on the age of the deer by passing small ones. And I have a direct influence on nutrition, hence my posts about food plots in the Deer forum.

[PikeTipper]

Good point BLB,

If I shoot all of the does then there is no reason for the bucks to come around.

[jlm]

One thing that is important regarding QDM is to know the number of deer your land can sustain. One problem with the population of today is that if we have a real bad Winter, we are going to have some major deer losses in certain areas because there is too much competition for Winter browse. By reducing the deer population, you are also increasing the survival of the deer on your property because there will be enough browse to sustain them through the Winter. Does that make sense, I did not word that very well? Of course, you can alter any or all of this by having a feeding program, food plots, etc. Good luck all!

[Pistolero]

jlm, how does one determine how many deer an area can handle? In the area that I hunt (area 245) the deer per square mile was 23-38 in 2002, 24-43 in 2003 & 2004 which the DNR considers high. What would be a good deer number? Any thoughts?

[bigbucks]

I think that's a great question Pistolero & one I'd like to know the answer to as well.

I'd also like to know how you found out what the deer density is in your area?

[Pistolero]

Quote:

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I'd also like to know how you found out what the deer density is in your area?

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I found it at the DNR site.

[jlm]

I am not sure that the DNR estimates are always accurate. Their mothods of estimating deer have a very high degree of error. Your best bet is to do the scouting yourself to determine the number of deer in your area. Their are a couple of formulas out there that are pretty good. However, if you know your area well, you probably have a good rough estimate of how many deer are there. If you would like to know how many deer your area can sustain, you could contact one of the wildlife biologist with QDM. They will come out and see what sort of plant life, browse, etc. your area has and then they will determine the correct number of deer for that given area. It is a great service and free if you are a member of your local QDM organization. There are others out there that will do this as well, some charge and some are free. They will also give you tips on how to improve the area for a better carrying capacity. QDM is a great program if you really want to improve the environment for wildlife!

[Pistolero]

Thanks for the info jlm. Ya, I figured that the DNR deer size estimates were just educated guesses for a large area. I was hoping that there might be estimates as to how many deer an area can handle, so I emailed the DNR with this question, to see if they have them. You would think that they would since they need them to determine how many bonus permits to issue.

I hunt 40 acres of private land, which I do not own. Wish I did because I would love to do a food plot. I spent some time helping a friend with their food plot last spring and loved every second of it. I think that it’s the farming part that I enjoyed so much and working outdoors.

Anyway if I find any estimates I will post them.

[carpshooterdeluxe]

this has been the best thread i have read on this site to date and i just couldnt wait any longer to throw my hat into the ring. Where i grew up and still hunt in the agricultural lands of west central minnesota it is very tough to manage a property to ensure nice bucks. Personally when i buy an archery tag (now non resident $156) i do so for the ability to get out and see what there is for deer in the area and for the possibility at a nice buck. During slug season however, i hunt with a large party where freezer filling is a larger concern. typically we obtain enough doe permits that we do not have to harvest small bucks but sometimes a deer is a deer. this year i shot a 4 point on the last day of the season and am proud and sad at the same time. i would have liked to have passed the deer but i knew that i would not have any more oppertunities to go bowhunting this fall and it was my last chance. Unfortunately too often in our party when a nice buck is shot we here the phrase "that would have been a wall hanger next year." hopefully i as well as the others in our party can start to pass on some of the smaller bucks and still feel we had a successful hunt. not to rant too long but also as i read this thread i felt that something was missing from all this discussion...on certain properties where qdm is practiced religiously....if only the large bucks are shot either early during archery season or right away during gun season; arent you decreasing your probability of the large bucks doing the breeding and passing their genetics to future generations? i can understand the benifits of qdm on large properties with "holding power" for the deer but i really cannot see the benifits of a state mandated practice on lands like i hunt where a buck can roam 3-6 miles in one day. ok this is way too long so i will "shut up" now!

[lawdog]

Good discussion, I tried to post here earlier but my computer had issues...

There are a couple things I'd like to add or comment on as I generally support QDM type hunting and the ideas behind it.

First, I think the all-season license has really allowed me to be better at this and be a much better deer hunter. I've only shot good shooter bucks and antlerless deer since having that option, and have passed up quite a few little bucks. That's a good option that the DNR provided us. Prior to that, I was stuck with the 4a season for two days, or I could abandon my traditional hunting party to muzzleload. I really think that this area (zone 4) will never be able to see much voluntary implementation until the DNR gets rid of 2 or 4 day season options here. You just can't expect hunters to pass up a deer when you only have 2 days to get one. That's the first thing that needs to change.

As to the objections to QDM, I really don't get it. The principle in QDM of shooting does is real consistent with what the DNR is already doing with all the extra tags and their attempts at reducing the herd, and really nobody ever argues with improving habitat, so it comes down to really just passing on little baby bucks. So, what's the fascination with killing a spike or a fork??? That's all that you are probably giving up and in a year or two you'll be able to shoot bigger better deer instead. How is this bad? The true monster trophies will still be elusive and they will still require work, so don't give me the BS line that its just about lazy hunters wanting trophies, that's not it, I say in reality the objections are just lazy hunters wanting spikes and forks so they can brag about "getting their buck".

Pistelero, go ahead shoot your does, that's not anti QDM... In fact, in a sense its doing QDM (although you don't need to forego bucks altogether). The rest of you, please explain what's so bad about it??? And yes I realize its telling you what you can and can't shoot, but big deal! Get over it, after all, what's a minimum three inch polished horn, but a minimum size limitation already???

[WB make the CUT]

Unless the dates of the Firearms season change, we will all be talking about QDM for a long time.

[BLACKJACK]

WB, I agree, the one change that would help immensely to save bucks would be to move the season back out of the rut, all the bucks are acting crazy, moving around alot and consequently getting shot.

lawdog, I don't understand your point about the 3" of polished horn?? If a 4 point minimum per side was implemented, a lot of 1 1/2 year old bucks would still be shot because in MN the nutrition is good enough where a lot of 1 1/2 year old bucks have racks with 8 points. And I still maintain, if you want a big buck, go spent the time being a HUNTER and shoot one. I don't think a small, vocal minority should set the deer hunting regulations for the majority of deer hunters that think that any deer is a trophy.

This has been a good thread from the stand point that you get to hear others people opinions and it has me thinking about 'what do I consider to be a trophy deer'? I spent a lot of road time this weekend and I had plenty of time to think and here is what I concluded.

I remember when a doe permit was treasured because it got to be a long season when you were hunting only bucks. I also remember 15 years ago when I started bow hunting, it took me five years before I even got a deer, finally I got better at stand placement and spent more time in the stand and decided that any deer that didn't have spots was going down because they're darn hard to get with a bow. I spent enough time in a stand to realize that any deer - doe, small buck, or big buck - that you get with a bow is a trophy. I still feel that way. Only 25% of the archery hunters are successful. Only 50% of the gun hunters are successful. To the ones that aren't successful, any deer is a trophy. If you tell someone that is a gun hunter only that you shot a buck -big or small - with your bow, they realize that you're done something that most deer hunters haven't done.

To the average hunter, any deer is a trophy. I think the people on this forum are among the elite deer hunters, they spend more time hunting, they hunt multiple zones and weapons, etc, but they're also in the minority, and the minority, even a vocal minority, shouldn't dictate the deer hunting rules for the majority.

I've shot a number of small bucks (and a couple of big ones) and saved the antlers from all of them. Recently I was looking them all over and they brought back good memories. Heres the one with 8 inch spikes that I shot when it was -5 and the wind was howling and I was tempted to stay in bed. Heres the small 8 that I watched bed down in a CRP field, stalked and shot, then drug half way across an 80. Heres the buck I shot across the bridge of the nose and he somersaulted a$$ over teakettle. My point is that they all bring back memories and are trophies.

Before the talk about QDM came along the most common phrase in bowhunting was "you can't shoot a big deer if you shoot the first small buck that comes along". Thats still my philosophy, and someday when my goal is a big buck, that what I'll do. Big bucks are out there, I see them every week in the Outdoor news, I jump them occaisionally pheasant hunting, when I want one bad enough, I'll put in the necessary time hunting them. I won't expect the DNR to legislate big bucks for me by requiring QDM. When I do get one, if thats my goal, it will really mean something to me because I've put in the necessary time.

This thread also got me thinking about my bow hunting the last several years and what I've saw and what I like about bow hunting. Besides nature and the solitude, I also like to see deer. In the area of central MN that I hunt, I can't say I see lots and lots of deer. They're around but I go lots of hunts without seeing any, and the most I've ever had near my stand was 5 deer. So it got me thinking, if I like to see deer, why am I shooting does? Does reproduce. If four does are shot off my land, thats roughly ten deer (4 does plus 6 offspring) that won't be around next year. If four bucks are shot, thats only four deer that won't be around next year. Mmmmm, makes you think. If I want to see more deer, maybe I should be shooting the bucks instead of the does.... In agricultural land, winter food generally isn't a problem, so I'm not worried about too many deer degrading the habitat.

I know I'll get blasted for this post, but I had plenty of thinking time this weekend and thought I'd put it out here.

Bottom line, any deer is trophy.

[lawdog]

Quote:

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lawdog, I don't understand your point about the 3" of polished horn??

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My only point is that most of the people who argue against QDM do so based on the weak (that's giving it too much credit in my opinion) argument that no one should tell them what they can and can't shoot. The reality is that we are all told what we can and can't shoot already and we are all having to follow someone's rules. The "you can't tell me what to do" argument could be used to support hunting over bait or chasing them with dogs or shooting them in a spotlight, after all, "who are we to tell them they can't do that???" Regardless of whether or not someone is for or against something, that argument just doesn't mean anything.

By the way, I've also got all the racks I've tagged and kept all that I could (its tough with party hunting to have them all or else I would...). And I too think they are all trophies and the anterless deer I've taken I've been very proud to have as well. I don't really see that as the issue though. I also agree that there are lots of areas where we probably don't need to shoot more does, as the DNR is already managing does and we shoot a good number in MN. That's in my opinion one thing that would make implementing QDM simpler here, not worse. In places where they have implemented it and there hasn't been a tradition of shooting does, look how much bigger the change is...

[Pistolero]

I’ve been checking the hunting regulations in states that have Antler Point Restrictions to see how it is handled. Does anyone know which states have the plan in operation? I know of Missouri and Arkansas. Any other states?

[Stratosman]

Indeed this is a very interesting topic, there have been many good points made throughout the posts, it seems there is a split between people that would be for and against regulated QDM. Although I have no solution or any idea how we would resolve this conflict, I do know that I, in general, am against having new regulations and laws continuosly imposed on us, whether it be hunting or everyday life. Sure some are for the better, some are purely idiotic, but no matter what, there will always be opposition to change. No different with DNR controlled QDM. I would love to shoot bigger bucks, I have started my own QDM on the property that I hunt, none of the neighbors do, neither does the party that I gun hunt with on the same land, and I guarantee that if I asked my 80 year old grandfather or that 12 year old on thier first deer hunt not to shoot a buck unless it has at least 10 scoreable points and a minimun 20" inside spread, I would get nothing but a blank stare.

I think that real proponents of QDM are already practicing that in thier own ways, by harvesting mature bucks as well as managing the doe herd, beyond that they are talking to adjacent landowners and working with them on practicing the same. At first I would have called myself a supporter of imposed QDM, but now, after alot of thought during countless hours sitting in a treestand, I am unsure as to where I stand on this issue, I think it would have it's ups and downs. What I do know is that I would not want the decision to be made by government employees, but rather through a voting system that is tabulated through the ELS licensing system we have, similar to the questions asked about hunting migratory birds. Maybe see what the hunting public wants? I would bet heavily on it being turned down. Mostly because of the point many have brought up already. 2 day season and I can't shoot what I want? My son's or daughters's first hunt and they have to pass that 2 year old 8 pointer? Tough decision.

If you look at some of the top producing whitetail areas as far as antler size or record entries are concerned, it is the landowners themselves that have QDM policies in place. There is no question as to it's effectiveness, it's a question of making the people that do not care about antler size, force them to harvest deer based on just that, they do not worship the antlers, they hunt to put meat on the table and you don't eat the antlers.

But on the flip side there are people that hunt for the antlers, me included. Sure I always try to fill my doe tag to put meat in the freezer beacause I love to eat venison. But I pass many small bucks each year in hopes of getting a pope and young quality animal, but that is my decision to make. I think that any deer taken with archery is the definition of a trophy to most, many hunters go years without harvesting a buck of any size. Sure, QDM might up the odds for harvesting a buck, and for surely up the odds of harvesting a mature animal, but all in all, I'm not sure that forcing it upon us is the right way to do it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there would be way too much oppositon to it. I like the idea of moving the season back till after the rut, I, especially as a bowhunter would love to see that. Look at Wisconsin, merely a stones throw away, no imposed QDM, rather voluntary landowner QDM along with a later gun season and the number of trophy bucks taken is astronomically higher than Minnesota. I have browsed a couple of web site forums based in Wisconsin and have looked at the pictures of deer taken on the hunting forums, literally 50 pictures on just one site that I visited of bucks that would have probably won this sites big bucks contest and a hundred more that would put most ours to shame. A party of 5 hunters with 5 bucks all grossing over 140"? Unreal. I am by no means a wildlife biologist, just a hunter with an opinion, but something is working over there. Then Iowa, Illinois, the Dakotas, all states that rank in the tops for mature animals killed, why? I don't have the answer. I just wish I owned 80 acres in Buffalo County.

When we strip hunting down to it's purest form it's still man against beast, the way it's been for eons. I'm not sure that glamorizing hunting is the way to make it more enjoyable. In the days of outfitters leasing up 1000's of acres of land making hunting impossible for many and to the "ranches" with 12' fences charging you $10,000.00 to guarantee you a 180" animal, to the (Contact US Regarding This Word) in Texas who wants internet hunting on his ranch. These area all stemmed from our infatuation of antlers, not from the enjoyment of the hunt itself, and in many ways it is ruining hunting and diluting the ingredients it takes to make an enjoyable hunt.

I see it watching the outdoor channel, 90 percent of deer hunting programs are shot on places where 90 percent of us will never have the opportunity to hunt. Ranches in Texas where $5,000.00 will only get you a 130" "management" deer. Game farms in Michigan where the CEO's can doll out $10,000 to kill a 200" whitetail all while in the comfort of a heated box blind complete with split log siding and all the comforts of home, in February. It makes me kind of ill when I think about it, that is not hunting, it is killing, it is all about the antler. And maybe I am part of the problem?

Sorry about going off on a tangent, but hunting is changing. Anti hunting groups, land development, leased hunting rights. Right now I would worry about our children and their children having an opportunity to follow in our hunting tradition.

[bigbucks]

Well put Stratosman, I believe I agree with everything you said. (A lot to digest, which isn't a complaint.)

[lawdog]

Stratos, I think most QDM set ups (and anything I would support) give kids with the youth licenses an exemption from the point restriction so they can shoot any deer they get the chance to shoot. I think it would be fair and reasonable to provide that same exemption for Senior citizen license holders.

Nobody is trying to destroy hunting opportunities by advocating for QDM type principles...

[Stratosman]

Lawdog,

I think that the exemption would have to mandatory, I agree with you for sure. And I do not think that QDM itself is destroying hunting, and like I said, I practice my own sort of the same thing. I was stating that mans infatuation has changed some aspects of the sport. Some of which I do not like to see. But how can I have my cake and eat it too?

This is one of the most interesting posts I have seen in a while however. That's why this site is so great, getting to read other hunters opinions on subjects like this.

[Pistolero]

I curious as to with plan you people would prefer:

1. Antler-point restriction

2. Move season out of rut

3. Earn-a-buck

4. Shorten buck season

5. Buck permit quota

All of which are a form of deer management and would help protect bucks.

I would prefer all but #1 because I do not want to count points.