GWH vs. Lab

[Zarkohl]

I am just starting my search for my first hunting dog. I have been considering getting a lab, but have also looked at German Wire Hair Pointers. Just wondering if anyone out there has a GWP and how they are with ducks & geese. I hear that they a great all around hunting dogs, but don't know anyone who has one. In addition, I am also wondering if there are any breeders in the Twin Cities area. Thanks.

[bigdog]

My hunting partner has a Wire Hair Griffon which is a similar dog to the German wire haired. Strengths of the dog are its drive and tenacity, it doesn't seem to give up on a bird. These are traits that were attributed to the breed and the reason that he chose the dog over a lab. At the risk of offending someone, the dog does have some drawbacks, and yes, I realize it could be isolated to one dog etc, etc and not the breed in general. The dog is very high strung and appears nervous. It cannot stand being out of sight of the owner. She was also a handful to train and control (yes I know it could be the trainer, no it was not his first dog). He has a female which is about 45-50 lbs. Probably a bit small for geese on land. She does retrieve ducks but is better on upland. After a couple of years of hunting her he has said that his next dog will be a lab based on his experience with her so far. His previous dogs were Britt's. Just relaying his experience's and I don't mean to offend any wire-haired owners.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 06-10-2003).]

[Surface Tension]

The number one dog for retrieving ducks is a Lab. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. So if a duck dog is what you want then your question is answered. If you want a hard head with attitude that'll retrieve ducks then get a Chesapeake instead of a GWH.
I say get a dog that LOVES to do what you want him to do. Get the lab.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 06-10-2003).]

[Guest]

Some of the best waterdogs ive ever seen have been gwh and gsh pointers.I have a black gsh thats great in the water she jumps in the creeks in dec even when pheasant hunting the cold doesnt seem to affect her she's great with ducks and her nose is really an asset finding mallards in the cattails important thing is to get a dog you like. My expeience says my shorthairs are ussually hyper and need patience. Labs can be puppies till about 2 or 3 but calm down and if kept in shape are great hunting and family dogs. if your hunting upland birds also checkout gwh otherwise a lab from good bloodlines is hard 2 beat just a thought goodluck.

[honker23]

Simple to me.
Ducks---Lab
Upland-----GSH or GWH
Can't beat a labe for retrieving ducks
my .02

[irvingdog]

I own a GWP. It enters the water like a cannon. Flies off the end of the dock. Watches the sky with high intensity. Goes swimming in the aireator hole in the lake I live on in February.
It is a reasonably close working pointer. Staunch and smart. Can you train a pointer? Do you want to?
I like hunting behind pointers and hunt Pheasant and Grouse more than duck and geese. I also like tail-less dogs. And muppet faces. But oh, how I hate shedding.

Great dogs. High curiousity factor. My boys best friend, and most devoted sentry.

[Zarkohl]

Thanks for all of your replies. I was under the impression that GWP's did not shed? At least not as much as a lab.

[can it be luck?]

The fact that a lab is the #1 undisputable duck retreiver is a crock. GWPs are all the retreiver that a lab is and has the versatility to hunt,point,and retrieve all species of game from grouse,woodcock,rabbits,ducks,geese,even varmit! Why limit yourself to 1 species of game? Never met a bad dog but met many terrible hunters. The labs docility makes a good match for many weekend hunters. If you want a hard charger I would highly recomend the GWP. Have some nice pictures of GWPs and GSPs in web page chumpchangewires, check em out. Zarkohl, Have some video of prize winning GWPs working. If interested reply and will send it out to you. You will witness some of the finest dog work guaranteed.Mark Hoffmann/can it be luck?

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[Surface Tension]

CIBL The Retriever Trails are dominated by labs. So tell me how thats a crock.
If you think labs are only good in the Duck blind your mistaken. Ive been using labs on Grouse and Pheasants for 25 years and they are outstanding on upland. Varmits I wouldnt know. Dosile? No they wont chew up a coon but in the blind or field their all buisness. I may hunt on weekends but I prepare myself and dogs all year long.

[Guest]

Well the main reason is other breeds are not allowed into retriever trials by the AKC. Retriever trials are set-up for marking and distances up to 300 yards or more. When is the last time you shot a duck at 300 yards? Only labs, goldens, chessies, and a couple recognize retriever breeds are allowed in AKC trials. That being said, the GWP will go retrieve for retrieve with any lab in field conditions. Not set up games where running straight lines in mowed fields is rewarded. Retriever breeds excel at games like this because the tests reward blind obedience, where the handler takes the dog to the bird by giving direction. The GWP and other hunting breeds are far to independant to excel at strict obedience trials and tests. In real hunting conditions where it is up to the dog to search out and find game using its nose, the lab is not even in the hunt. The lab is to dependant on handler direction. Labs spend all their time in the field looking at the owner for direction, instead of hunting out birds on their own. As far as hunting grouse behind a lab, not when I hunt grouse! The lab is in no way a grouse dog, not enough nose. They wander aimlessly and push up a couple of birds. Within 20 minutes the dog is walking at heel or 20 paces behind you, no stamina. If that is your idea of a grouse hunting, well have at it. But hunting grouse with a lab is is nothing but a walk in the woods with a heel hound dog that is more in the way of the hunt, than helping to find and put birds in front of the gun. If a guy wants to hunt pheasant with a flushing dog, use a springer, much better flusher than the lab, and much more exciting to watch. The lab is an excellent waterfowl dog no question, but the lab as a breed is serverely lacking when it comes to other types of hunting, their versatility is very limited. Pretty soon surface tension you will saying what a great pointer the lab is!

[This message has been edited by mealy mouth (edited 07-06-2003).]

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[Surface Tension]

MM Your right about retreivers only at Field Trials. (keeps the rif raf out )You also had some other good points. I do disagree with you about a retrievers nose. When I hunt behind my labs Im confident Im not walking by any birds. Ive seen my lab turn a cold scent into a hot pursiut after a half mile of nose work, often ending up with a rooster busting up 100 yards into a cattail slough with a lab on its tail. We do this all day long with half the dog work in the sloughs. Darn right the dog is wore out at the end of the day but the dog is right back at it the next day all day long. Stamina is only an issue of conditioning. You bet the dogs check in with me, they're trained to. They hunt where I want them to hunt and they stay at a range and pace I want them to. Your claim about labs tells me you havent hunted behind a good one. GWH and GSH are good dogs, they just dont fit my style of hunting.

[can it be luck?]

Right on Mealy Mouth!, I know what you mean about prepareing a site for tests. Altering natural sites and makeing "paths" for dogs is a joke. Thanks for the E-mail. Your published articles and pictures were very nice and informative, especially the picture of your GWP sitting next to the brace of pheasant hanging from the snow covered N. Dakota fence post. I'll have to try and find that magazine and look at it. Congratulations on your youngest GWP . Quite an accomplishment to have a GWP receive its HR certificate. I dont think I ever heard of any others? Is that true? I agree with you about a labs nose. I like to go to the local pheasant club and clean up the scratch birds after the lab guys go home. They sure miss a bunch. I know this may upset many lab owners, but I only say what I know and stand 100% behind it!!! I'm not a big "club" guy, but for certification and breeding it's sometimes needed. Good dogs prove themselves in the field where real hunting is done, not "staged events". How many "WILD" birds did you say you shot over your dogs last year? I too like to hunt "late season ducks" and have never had problems with my GWP breaking ice to retrieve ducks and geese. My woman knitted a cute little sweater that she tells me to put on the dog. We both sort of looked at it like "what the heck is that!" It makes for a nice pad to sit on anyway, I dont have the heart to tell her how goofy and embarassing we would look sporting that thing. Thanks again for the E-mail. can it be luck?

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[Bryce]

Gotta stick with the lab guys here. Oops.. I am a lab guy. We're comparing apples to oranges. If your gonna chase rotties you'd best have a truckful of different breeds. A different breed would be desirable for each field. As far as 300 yard marks. Probably a half dozen sailers or lung shots each year. Same with 200 yard blinds. Noses? Have had my labs wind scent a rooster from close to 75 yards with pointers in the groups. Go on a hunt with a well trained lab or pointer and you'll have the hunt of a lifetime. The key is WELL trained.

[irvingdog]

Does anyone know what killed the public opinion of the Wiemeraner for so many years? It was the presumption of it being an expert in every type of quarry. It isn't, and it can't. Same goes with the GWP. I own one (had 2) and I understand dogs well enough to not expect excellence at all facets of hunting.........
I also know enough not to bad mouth a lab on a Minnesota website. I also own a Springer, which is arguably the 2dn most beloved dog in this state, but nothing can compare to the love these folks have for their labs. It is kind of like yelling "Packers Suck" outside of a bar in Kenosha. No matter how true the sentiment may be You just don't go there..........

[Rick]

Well said Irvingdog. I love Springers as well. Good, feisty, hard working retriever.

Like you said, most breeds have their niche where they perform better than other breeds.

If you duck hunt, pheasant hunt and/or grouse hunt, are looking for an easily trained dog and great family dog, then a lab is hard to beat.

A GWP is tough to beat as an all around upland bird dog, especially if you grouse hunt.

I'd say more about Springers, but this topic is about GWP vs Labs.

Get a GWP and Lab together, as Irvingdog said and you're in for a treat. I sorry, I meant, get a pointer and retriever together

[can it be luck?]

Presumption, bad mouth, geographic location, springer, arguably, beloved, PACKERS, bars in Kenosha ? Someone needs a timeout. When talking about man's best friend, it's hard not to get somewhat emotional.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 07-06-2003).]

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 07-06-2003).]

[Rick]

But how can you talk about your favorite dog(s) and not have personal feelings???

can it be luck....you changed your post about this topic being no place for personal feelings

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-07-2003).]

[duckbuster]

Surface Tension I couldn't agree with you more!! The Lab has all of the 3 S's, Strength, Stamina and above all SMARTS!! I would prefer to hunt behind a dog that is not wound so tight as a pointer. MM before you start yacking about how a Lab is not in the same league as your pointer you might want to get your facts up to date. I've hunted grouse for a long long time, always with a Lab and I can say that I will never have it any other way!!!
I don't ever recall any of my Labs quitting or walking next to me. Oh let me take that back, I quess last fall was the 1st time, my 13 1/2 year old female did walk next to my side after about 6 hours of walking. But after that many years of putting more grouse in my freezer than YOU can ever imagine I believe she deserves a break!!!
Different strokes for different folks
MM. But do not try and blow smoke to the Lab owners out here about OUR friends not being on par with your partners in the field.

NONSENSE TOTAL NONSENSE

[Rick]

Mealy Mouth,
it's obvious you've never been duck hunting. Ducks have been known to glide over 300 yds after being taken down.

You make a lot of assumptions and claim them as fact. You've shown most here your true level of expertise when it comes to dogs, even GWP's. I do agree they are good dogs and serve their specialty very well.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-06-2003).]

[duckbuster]

Mealy Mouth or Can It Be Luck can you educate me here on what an HR certificate is?

At field trails there is no "altered fields" or "cut paths". The events are not staged either. There are different competitive groups for different ablility of dogs. The Derby is for ALL dogs under the age of 2, with mostly all marks. The Qualifying stake is for dogs with a little bit more knowledge. In this stake the level of toughness is increased including some blind work and honoring of another dog. Then you have the Amateur and Open stakes. Here you will find the toughest of tests. Triples, quads, retired guns, multiple blinds run over old marks and honoring as well. The big difference between the 2 stakes is the Amateur is for Amateur trainers only where as in the Open stake the Amateur trainers compete against professional trainers and there dogs.

Each stake has 2 judges that score each competitor, after 3,4,or 5 test the dogs are awarded places and accumulate points toward the ultimate goal and that is to become a field champion.

I will guarantee you one thing, these field trail dogs are FANTASTIC hunting dogs. Believe it or not when in the field the dog relies on you just about as much as you rely on the dog. Having to handle a dog to a fall can not be uncommon to you. We have all done it during the duck season or when multiple roosters or grouse are knock down.

Let me know about the HR thing, please.

GOOD LUCK & GOOD HUNTING

[jlm]

Oh, I see this can be a heated one, you don't mess with a mans dog, that is for sure! This is actually an intersting post and I agree with all of your points mostly. However, it is important to realize that it generally is not the dog, it is the trainer. I have seen German Shepards that could point as well or even better than the average pointer. I have seen mut dogs who could retrieve as well as the average lab. Its all in the training, even the not so smart dogs can be trained into fairly good hunting campanions. So, basically we should stop comparing breeds of dogs and compare them on an individual basis. I happen to love labs because I have had much luck with them. I also like pointers but have yet to own one. I was thinking of getting a pointer and having him as my retriever dog over water and a lab as my new pointer. That would confuse some of us!

[Rick]

Hi can it be luck,
I sure didn't think your post was harsh. Sounded like you were joking to me, so I thought I'd rib ya back a little.

[Surface Tension]

Your talkin in differnt directions here. First you say how unnatural it is for a 300yd retrieve in a retriver trail but then you talk of hunting game farms for a HR certificate. Hmm field work thats judged on dumb birds? Your beloved United Kennel Club must have a forum you can slam Labs on.
I went to your link, lottsa pic's of Labs. There is friendly ribbing here among different breeds. But not you, you brought an ugly side to it. I havent looked to see how you treat others on the forum but you got a hard on for me. Leave it off the forums. [email protected]

[can it be luck?]

ST, To whom and what the x#*$ are you talking about? If your comments are directed at me(assumption) I find them very distasteful. Most all my replys have been rebuted by you and no one else! Regardless what forum. IMO I give excellent info based on experience and have the pics,videos,ect . to prove. So what I'm saying is this is not made up fantasy. I take great pride and satisfaction out of helping others learn and excel at fishing. Assumeing your adressing me, review my past posts and tell me of any one post which was not recieved with thanks and appreciation. Much of your info is very good, but at times you seem defensive and territorial IMO. I have seen many of your posts which poke fun at those that may not agree with you, not an opinion but fact. Perhaps this may answer your questions assumeing that post was directed at me. 300 yd. retrieve, not mentioned by me. So I'm a little confused as your direction. Lots of personal feelings involved with dogs, so I usually stay out of these areas. I do not like to discuss matters which involve opinion and personal preferances. Around and around we go. Take the topic of expanding the BWCA. I wouldn't touch that 0ne other than to make light of it, to much controversy and opinion. In the end it was closed, too much fighting. "why can't we all just get along" PS If directed at Mealy Mouth, he can no longer reply....banned.can it be luck? ......About that site, your right lots of labs. You can then understand a mans pride to have a GWP recieve that title. Hunt pen birds?,not often but as stated earlier necessary at times.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 07-08-2003).]

[Dano2]

I Totaly agree with Jlm (or, whatever) on this one.
I dont believe anyone should bash another breed based on a bad experience with that particular breed.
I have a lab too, but shes still leraning.
But that doesn't mean I dont like the other
breeds .
I haven't hunted behind a pointer, but know some that have and have seen them on T.V. and agree they are an excellent upland bird dog.
But I have also seen many labs that are just as good.
As far as stamina, this is the first I have heard a lab not having it, the guy in the earlier post must have had a fat old out of shape dog, heh, heh,
Not trying to bust anyones chops here.

A friend has a 7 yaer old lab, that doesn't sit still until YOU decide to take a break, otherwise its nothing but business from morning til night if thats how long it takes, its only draw back is it chases, and gets to far ahead, but that to me has to do with the obedience, which brings me back to Jlm's post, I believe if you work hard with your dog and keep it in shape, one can be as good as the other.
HEH, this thread almost reminds me of how they carry on about NR's over in the Nodak outdoors forum.

[irvingdog]

Can It Be Luck:

If you're comfortable with tongue in cheek, then surely you will recognize the tone of my post, to which you suggested I needed a time out..........

[Guest]

No doubt, Labs are duck dogs and best companion for me. I would never, ever allow a German Shorthair near my duck boat at 5am when the temp is 10 degrees and a skim of ice on the lake. That would be a death wish!

My labs are tough to beat for upland game, but shorthairs are fantastic field dogs.

What it comes down to is training. The breed doesn't guarantee a good hunter, it's the education the dog receives is what is most important!

[can it be luck?]

CD, GWP not GSP, Death wish, true....for the ducks!

[Surface Tension]

EDITED BY ST TO KEEP WITHIN THE SPIRIT OF FISHING MINNESOTA FORUM.

All Im going to say to CIBL is I refute your post about me.
Enough of this bickering, I'll bury the hachet. If you want to continue you can do so it via email. Peace, ST.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 07-08-2003).]

[Guest]

!!!

[This message has been edited by Brian Sander (edited 07-08-2003).]