GWH vs. Lab

[can it be luck?]

ST, I'm in agreement with you, enough. I think our differances maybe similarities. Sort of like you started,it but I'll finish it mentality. I believe that I can speak for you in saying that you recieve satisfaction and pride being able to help others with questions they may have, I know I do. There's a lot of hours logged in to become an accomplished fisherman,hunter,outdoorsman. Nothing that can just be learned from a book or forum etc. it take time and effort, as you very well know. Selfish perhaps? I dont think so. Satisfaction of makeing someones hunting or fishing trip more productive or memorable is payment enough for this time spent. Wow, I almost made doing what I love sound like work. This going back and forth started in the begining and although it has always been low key, I think we both felt it all along. Stubborn is probably the best word to describe it. Who knows maybe we could fish together sometime? Fortunately I have a friend in Eveleth who's a tatooist,maybe heard of him, Lenny's Tatoos. He does real good work(little plug for Lenny) So I can always make an excuse to go visit. I live in Wi. but I call Mn. my second home. You just can't beat the fishing! I used to fish Lac Suel and the English River system a lot, but at times Mn. can even beat that for a fraction of the cost. Liveing in Mn. I can imagine you could turn me on to a whole lot of water I never imagined. Thats a good thing to have on ones side. Thanks for being less stubborn than me, enough is enough. ST and can it be luck in the same boat? Who's boat we takeing anyways? Just kidding. P.S. MM and I are not the same person,this is definitely a fact. can it be luck?

[Surface Tension]

Or we could go after pheasants. I need someone to carry my labs back to the truck.
MUHAHAHA
Naw lets just go fishing.
We'll take my boat, it's to hard to steer yours from the front seat.

[can it be luck?]

Duckbuster, Go to www.ukcdogs.com, go to the hunting retriever program/HRC. All the info you asked for will be found there. HR is the intermediate level of the HRC program. It is also known as the seasoned hunting retriever level. P.S. Rick, I think we were both posting at the same time. I did delete some of my post thinking it may have been off base or harsh. It did make your post make less sense, sorry, was not my intention to leave you hanging. My deleted post involved talk of personal feelings, which will make Ricks post make more sense. can it be luck? Altering natural sites has been done by some chapters of NAVHDA, this is a FACT, not to say that other clubs have done this,just to clarify things. Dog talk can get pretty heated, more so than any other topic. Mealy Mouth may have been outspoken, but after talking via E-mail I've come to realize he's very knowledgeable and experienced in dog training and breeding, and has trained many dogs throughout the U.S. can it be luck?

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 07-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 07-08-2003).]

[can it be luck?]

ST, Your dogs will be just fine. Like I said they GWP is a versatile retriever. We'll just send out the GWP on a blind search, he'll retrieve those crips! Kidding guys. I learned about home field advantage along time ago. No matter whos boat we'd take, Your driving and guideing. That could be very tough for me,roll reversal. Probably put some nice fish in the nets anyway I'll bet. can it be luck?

[setterguy]

Now I may be just a dumb pointing dog guy, but we have these same discussions at our trials and on our web-sites also. I have said it before on this board and I will say it again. There isn't a breed out there that can hunt all species better than everything else. If you hunt ducks get a Chessie, if you hunt pheasants get a Springer, if you hunt rabbits get a Beagle, and if you hunt grouse get an English Setter. Now having said that, I know 99% of guys hunt more than one species. For those a lab or GWP are probably the best choices. Now you just have to decided if you want a pointing dog or a fluhing dog. One isn't right or wrong. They are both going to retrieve from water, they are both going to be able to hunt upland game sometimes one a little better than the other. The best puppy for anyone is the one that you feel most comfortable with and have the most knowledgable person train. The rest is just personal preference on hunting style.

[jlm]

I heard that labs are better fishing dogs than pointers, is that true? JOKING! Yes, I agree, we all love our animals and feel that there is no match but the truth is that there is always a better dog out there. Thats ok though, these are our dogs and our best friends. It is nice to see those so devoted to their animals. Kudos to all of you!

[Blaze]

So, Zarkohl, you still out there or did the bickering chase you away?

The real question that I don't believe was EVER answered here is what kind of hunting do you do? You mentioned ducks, but if you had to break down your time in the field into percentages, that may help you ID what kind of dog would be best for you. For example, my breakdown looks something like this:

Pheasant 50%
Ducks/Geese 30%
Grouse 20%

Also, have you ever seen a pointer work on upland birds? Have you seen a lab work upland birds? Likewise, have you seen either work downed waterfowl? Any respectable breeder will allow you to come check out his dogs and will demonstrate how they work - I think this is a KEY in making your final decision. You will more than likely have a noticeable preference for one style over the other, and you will see how they fit (or don't fit) your type of hunting.

Lastly, I will echo Bryce's and jlm's comments on how training, time, and attention will make your hunting partner the most valued part of ANY hunt. A pup is not just a tool to pull out on weekends to go bang birds with - they need to be a part of your family, part of your daily life. Keep us posted on what you find or decide. Good luck.

Irvingdog - shoot me an email @ [email protected] - I have some Q's for you. Thanks.

[Zarkohl]

Yes, I am still here. Quite a topic eh!!!!! I am still trying to figure out what type of Dog to get, as my current dog, (an Austrailian Sheppard mix),is now 12-years old and having kidney & eye problems, along with arthiritis. Although I do not currently hunt as much as I would like too, (about every 2nd or 3rd weekend in the fall) my 2-boys are getting older (ages 6 & 9) have expressed an interest in going with (yeah!!!). So my plan is to get a good all around family/hunting Dog. I have been looking at labs, golden retrievers and GWP's. My orginal interest was in GWP's as they are smaller and I had heard that they don't shed(my wife's concern). I also like the fact that the tail is cropped. (I have been beaten by lab tails in the past) After reading some of the posts, however, I am concern that a GWP may be too much dog for a family/hunting dog. (kid friendly is a must here). Accordingly, I am now looking at Labs & Goldens. The majority of my hunting is duck/geese(50%), followed by grouse(30%)and pheasants 20%). I had a game farm membership last year, but never used it, as I did not have a dog at my disposal. (I inherited the membership from a friend who moved to KY). I used to go to the game farm with him and his golden retriever and hunt pheasants. I am not in a big hurry to get a dog "right now!", but just trying to make sure that I get the right kind of dog for my neds, as I don't want to have to change and/or replace dogs at a later date. I also have concern about introducing a new puppy to a 12-year dog (female, I didn't want to use the "B" word) but I hear that often times the younger dog will adopt the older one temperment. So I am just looking for advice and/or opinions on the subject. Thanks.

(Blaze - I tried to e-mail you last winter/spring about your GWP, but I apperently didn't have the right e-mail address, as it came to me as undeliverable - never did follow up on it though. Hope you found oit a good home).

[Duffman]

Zarkohl...
I've always had a dog for the companionship, the fact that I can take her out hunting is a bonus. Every dog is different, even within the same breed. Different traits, wants and needs. Some breeds handle different situations better than other breeds, but most can be trained to do what you want them to do.
I'm on my second female Golden, she has taken to waterfowling like a champ. As you know Goldens are great family dogs, as are Labs if you can get past the fact that it seems to take a couple years to get through the puppy stage. I know my dog can't compete with Labs head to head in the sleugh, but she can hold her own and she suprises me often. But I only hunt 10 or so days a year, so I don't really think of her as a hunting dog, I consider her my little buddy that likes to go hunting.
I've heard good and bad things when introducing a puppy to a family with an older dog. Sometimes the older dog will get a second wind and actually be more chipper, but a lot of the time it can add some stress to the older dogs life (less affection, invasion of territory, etc...)
Good luck with whatever dog you choose, but remember these three things, training, training, and training. The more you can do yourself the better the dog will respond to you.

[Dano2]

Zarkohl, I seen you mention a concern about the sheeding a couple different times,
I know my lab sheds like crazy, i can brush her all day long, I dont know much about GWP's but GSP's I believe dont shed much at all, atleast thats what the taxidermist that did my deer told me his didn't, plus I was down by the river fishing one time and one came to visit me from a near by farm, so I gave it a good pull on the fur,(heh, lucky it weas friendly) and didin't get that gob out like on my lab.
just my input about shedding anyway

[bigdog]

Zarkohl - On the shedding, a buddy has a nice golden that he uses on pheasants, good dog but that long hair makes the shedding pretty noticable. If you decide on a golden, a guy at work got one from a breeder right next to the Mpls Metro gunclub, (maybe Northwood?). Anyhow, he has been very happy with the dog, seems to take to training very well and gets along great with his family. If you decide upon on a lab, obviously they will shed, but the hair from a white lab REALLY shows up on everything where the black tends to at least blend in a bit. Good luck in your search.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 07-10-2003).]

[irvingdog]

Wirehairs respond best to a European stripping knife, or "Shedding blade".

[gspman]

Dano2,
Your statement that a gsp sheds very little that is not true. A gsp will blow it's coat in the spring and blow it again in the fall just like every other dog (or mammal for that matter). This is especially evident if they are kenneled outdoors. The only difference is that the hair on a gsp is a bit shorter so it is less noticeable.
gspman

[Dano2]

OH, O.K.

[Blaze]

Exactly. We find tons of "eyelashes" all over our kitchen/dining room tile from our GSP when we sweep.

[J Rookie K]

Best waterfowl dog God ever created. 3 words for you. Chesapeake Bay Retriever! Dont let these guys say they are hard to train. All of these dogs can be super, or terrible. Ill agree with the ones who say to do the research on the breeder. Stay away from sings on the corner AKC LAB PUPPIES FOR SALE. Most of the time they are backyard breeders and thats what makes it hard to find GOOD DOGS. Have fun on your voyage, and HAVE FUN wiyh your pup.

[wallygators]

ok i am goi9ng to put all the lab bashing to rest i have hunted over both GWP and labs and labs bay far a easier to control and have more stamina than the Poiters. My cousins dog is 9 years old and still hunts hard all day. If you don't beleive i have pictures from opening day last year where we shot 10 cocks for 5 guys 2 labs and a golden 9n the lowest phesants per squarre mile in Minnesota. And this wasn't a one time shot I challenge any comers to out perform opur labs. I recvently bout my first lab and had to make the decision between a poiter or a good dog and it was no contest and i really don't care if i offend anyone I would hunt or a cocker spaniel before i would buy a pointer

[can it be luck?]

Wally, What kind of challenge are we talking here? Monetary? A little high stakes wagering? Timed event, points awarded for finding,retrieveing,shells used,birds shot? You definitly have my attention! I'm sure we could come up with some sort of "challenge". Definitly to include water events, your labs should have a big advantage then. A little chump change is always welcome.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 07-25-2003).]

[walleyeking#8]

I agree with all of you for the simple fact that any given dog with the right training will do what you want it to do. Yes there are a few exceptions. My dad growing up had a dog, his uncle found in a culvert, best dog you ever could have seen for retrieving, wondering what it was? It was a white german shepard. I have a springer and love it for hunting both upland and waterfowl. It doesnt matter what bird I hunt if it drops she retrieves. She is a small springer but oh yea she'll retrieve a goose, she has done it before. Personally for duck and goose hunting I would have a lab for the simple fact there not as nervous or high strung as a gsh or other similar breed. For all around hunting, springers are tough to beat.