Pointing labs

[superfish2]

I was thinking about getting a second dog this winter/spring. I also thought about it last year and decieded to wait one more year till my present dog was another year older. Right now I have a choc lab from northland kennels in blaine. I could not be happier with this dog. She is an excelent hunter, both waterfowl and upland. Outstanding nose drive everything.

The idea of having a pointing also appeals to me but I just do too much duck hunting to justify it. So I figured I would check out the pointing labs. I have a few questions if anyone can help me out?

1. Will the dog point or is it hit and miss depending on the dog?

2. Isn't the the purpose of a pointing dog to cover ground? A lab is still slower and more methodical working then a big running pointer?

3. What is the temperment of these labs? Are they wound up pretty tight or are they easy to be around?

4. Does anyone hunt one or can anyone recommend a breeder. From what I've found looks like there is one in the Lacrosse area Alma bottom or something. And the one is Sauk Rapids. I would like to take a look at one and watch the parents hunt before I could reall commit.

thanks

Joe

[bigdog]

I have a pointing lab from Alma Bottoms. 5th generation if I remember correctly. This particular dog is wound pretty tight and is not your typical happy, people friendly dog. I do not think that is a trait of pointing dogs - just this ones personality. When I picked him out I spent 2
eight hour days looking at the dogs. This one pointed wings most consistently and with the most intensity. He is now 5.5 years old. I did not conduct any special pointing training with him, just retreiver training as I have with my other labs. He does not point birds in the field at all. I have had non-pointing labs point more than him. However, he is an excellent upland dog, great nose, drive, energy and intensity.

I have heard good things about Sauk River kennels, would also suggest looking at Black Forest in Colorado.

[mwal]

I had also wondered about getting a pointing lab as I duck hunt in the morning upland in the afternoon. I have friends that had pointing labs. They didn't really point they hesitated before flushing. I don't know if that is normal or lack of training. I did research on versatile dogs and came up with the Deutsch Drahthaar. They point very well and love water retrieves. So far Greta has performed as advertisied retreiving ducks, pointing pheasant and grouse, woodcock. She is also our house dog. Keep checking around for a strain of poining labs that point or check out some versatile dogs such as Drahthaar, Griffon, Puddelpointer.

Mwal

[Griff guy]

If your are looking for a pointing dog have you considered the versatile breeds? I live near the Horicon Marsh in WI. We do a lot of goose and duck hunting. Our griffons are good retrievers and can take cold water. My female is 65# with a dense harsh coat. Griffons are calm enough to handle a canoe and duck blind, yet still have the drive and cooperation for a blind water retrieve.
On the flip side I can head north the next day and go grouse hunting with a dog that works close enough in cover where you don't lose them, and it sure is fun to hear that beeper go off when they lock up on point 40 yds away with trees in between. It's like heading for a tip up with it's flag waving. It is not the kill but the antisipation that makes my heart pound!
Labs are great dogs and if they can get the pointing lines working more power to them. We have a golden that hunts pheasants with our dogs some times that has started pointing. Mostly hunt club birds, but it still adds to the fun.
We hunt a lot of pheasants in S.D. Wild birds can be tough to pin down. We hunt the rushes and thicker cover after the crops are off where we can get nice points AND retrieves.
I guess it comes down to having a "Jack of all trades master of none" type dog. But if its a great family dog that you can enjoy 365 days a year. Why not?

[LABS4ME]

I had a pointing lab once... not from any "pointing" lines, but she just naturally pointed and several of her offspring were true pointers. These were not "flash" points, but rather staunch "pinned down" points. I should try to dig out the old picture of her pointing a bird with a friends English Pointer honoring her. I have her on video tape pointing some birds too. I had farmers in South Dakota who had never seen such a sight ask me how long she'd hold the bird down, I showed them until I said "hunt it up"... then it was all lab after that. She would not or even try to point running birds... she'd run them down and flush them like any other lab, but those that sat tight were held for a nice solid point.

My friend still has an 11 year old daughter of her's that still hunts all day with us in South Dakota, and I watch her and dream about having my ol' girl back! She hunts and points just like her Mom. I don't know if these are the expectations you should have with a pointing lab, or if mine were "needles in the hay stack". I have been told to be assured that you have a true pointing lab, even if from the pointing lines, it requires some training to bring out and finish off their instinct. I was just lucky with mine I guess. They are fun to hunt behind... She was a Master Hunter level dog (needed one qual. to finish) hunted ducks and geese all over the midwest and Canada, hunted pheasants all over the midwest and was a guide dog for 2 years. Very nice personality too... I guess what I'm saying is if you find the right dog you can have the best of all worlds.

Good Luck!

Ken

[walleye vision]

Hey Griff Guy,

I was wondering if you could tell me where you got your Griffon. I'm definately interested in the breed, but have found that they are hard to come by.

thanks,

WV

[Hossienda]

I have a 6 month old black lab from Sauk River Labs in Osakis. According to their website,
"We are interested in producing medium - sized, good-looking labs with a fierce desire to hunt and retrieve, and which show the pointing instinct at an early age...Our dogs are great labs first. Pointing labs second."

I would say they hit the nail on the head with my pup as she is a non stop hunter/retriever, has pointed several birds, and also done some good work as a duck dog. I would highly recommend checking them out. I have been completely satisfied and will be sending my lab back to them this winter for professional training as well. If anyone is interested in more information, email me: j o s h j l at r c c w dot com

-Hossienda

[Griff guy]

Walleye Vision,
I received my griff from a small kennel named "Stonybrook". My pup came with a breeders agreement that she test NAVHDA natural ability and hips OFA.

I since have joined "Stonybrook" and my female whelped two litters the last two springs. I had two pups go to MN, five to Iowa, ect.
We kind of have a group that talks and we try to get pups placed where they will get hunted and tested in NAVHDA. That way you can see how your breeding program is working.
I have two brother's that have WPGCA griffs. They are club dogs where the breeding commitee makes all the desisions. Pretty good dogs. They used the Chesky foesek to out cross in the 80's but haven't used many pure griffons since.
As far as versitile breeds go, the German Wirehair will give as much drive as any. But they can be protective. The Griffons may be more personable. If you look for breeders that test in NAVHDA you will find griffs with GO in them. Also make sure you get a pup that will have a hard, dense, flat lying coat. As with labs you want a mantainence free dog.

[Perch Jerker]

Natl Club-
www.pointinglabs.com

Local Club-
www.mnpointinglabs.com

I have a lab from Hunters Point Kennels that is a great dog, but never showed pointing interest/ability. She is a great dog that loves to retreve and hunt. With pointing labs it truly is a **** shoot if your dog will or will not point. Also, the pointing trait might not surface for up to 2yrs or longer.

'Pointing Labs' have been bred specifically for the pointing trait for only about 15-20yrs. English pointers, german shorthairs & wirehairs, setters, brittanys, viszlas, etc have been bread specifically for pointing for 100+ yrs. If an english pointer doesn't point, what are the chances it'll be bred and thus pass on it's genes?

Pointing labs are great dogs and I've seen some that lock up hard when winding a bird, however, some never point. As more and more generations of certified pointing labs are bread to other certified pointing labs, the trait WILL get stronger and chances of your lab pointing from this coupling will increase.

PJ

ps. My 'Bella' from HPK who turned 1yr old Oct 2nd.

[This message has been edited by Perch Jerker (edited 10-06-2004).]

[superfish2]

Hossienda,

Mail sent.

[superfish2]

I've briefly considered other breeds, but to tell you the truth I am a lab guy. It's all I've ever had. I know labs, and I know what I'm going to get.

[superfish2]

Thanks for the replies and advice guys. I might try and line up some kennel visits in the next week or two.

[superfish2]

I put a deposit on a little born this spring. It is from Sauk River, Jake x Magic. I can't wait.

[Hossienda]

Superfish,

That is the pairing my pup is out of. Had her out last night after pheasants and she kicked up 3 hens and 1 rooster and thanks to my great shooting, we went home empty handed. It was still a thrill. I think you will love your pup out of Jake and Magic.

-Hossienda

[Koda]

I'm jealous.

If I was going to add another dog this year that would be the litter I would have picked. I have a YL out of Jake x Sundance.

I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of the pups out of that litter if you guys have any.

[CodyDawg]

Bigdog,

I am potentially interested in Alma Bottoms and would like to know more about your experience with them. Are you satisfied? Would you buy another from them? Are you happy with your current dog? Is it a good family dog? Has it ever been aggressive around people, especially small kids? Anything you can tell me would be of great help. After reading the literature from Alma Bottoms, I was impressed.

[Bushwacker]

Superfish,

I have had a deposit down on that same litter since July. Close to a year long wait, but from everything I hear it will be well worth it. I had my 14 month female lab trained by David Mork this past Spring and I have nothing but great things to say about him and his dogs. I am getting a male out of the litter, what are you getting?

[bigdog]

I can comment on Alma Bottoms, but it is only based on my experience with one dog so may be an exception. My dog is very jumpy and very much a one person dog. He can be aggressive to people and I do not leave him alone with strangers or children. I did not encourage the pointing through training and he has never pointed a live bird. But he is extremely intense when hunting and an excellent upland dog. He uses his nose to wind like a pointer instead of keeping it on the ground. He does get along well with my new pup, even yields birds to him on retrieves. But he can be dog aggressive.

I have seen other Alma pups at the game fair and they seem well adjusted and act like a typical happy lab. I had to wait until the pup was 7 months old to get him so have attributed some of his personality to having lived in a dog pack for so long. I did not buy another Alma Bottom dog and have no plans to in the future. I contacted a breeder of a line of dogs I had experience with and ended up with a pup out of 2x NAFC FC Ramblin Man. If I were to get another pointing lab I would go to Sauk River or Black Forest in Colorado.

[superfish2]

I am getting a female out of that litter. Sounds like they will be ready to go home in May or so. I orginally went up there to look at Jake vs. Molly. They would be ready to go home in March or so. I was all set to get Jake vs. Molly and then he brought out Magic. Man what a sharp looking dog Magic is. I think I'm probably going to do all the training myself. Although the two areas I may need from David with are force fetching and bird work.

[duckbuster]

Fellas I wouldn't put to much stock in what Kennel the pup comes from, it's more about the male and the bitch he is bred to. The only concern I would have with the kennel itself is weather or not it is a clean kennel. I have no idea what kind of kennels Sauk River or Alma Bottoms are but if you like the male or the bitch go get your puppy. The kennel isn't going to have any bearing on your puppy being aggresive or a slug, it's all in the PEDIGREE!

GOOD LUCK with your picks. Remember this, 2 of the best dogs of all time Mac & Lottie were cast-offs. Picking a pup is a crap shoot no matter how you look at it.

[Bushwacker]

superfish2

Are you going to go and video tape the whelping or should I? From everything I hear and read this pairing has produced some dynamite results in the past.

I took my female, Libby, there for force fetch, collar conditioning, intro to birds, and advanced ob. It was well worth it.

[superfish2]

Bushwaker,

It never crossed my mind to video tape it. I live in Apple Valley so it's not that easy for me to get up there. Everything I've heard about that pairing has been good. Sounds like Jake x Magic and Jake x Sundance are the two proven breedings. I can't wait.

[Kodiak]

I got a pointing lab from Westphal retrievers in Prior Lake, she is only 4 months now and she is coming along great, she has been sporatically<----(check spelling?) pointing at her toys and things in the grass since she was 8 weeks. She is GREAT>>>

[Kodiak]

Get one!!!! pointing labs rule!!!!

[Longline]

I got a AKC Black Lab about a year and a half ago from a guy in my hometown. The dad is a yellow that pheasant hunts and the mom a decent duck dog. Last fall out hunting I seen what I thought was a point by my dog. Didn't think about it and kept walking and about the time I got to where she had been pointing a rooster pops.

Last weekend she locked up 3 times. First time I flushed a hen out. The next time I couldn't find what she was pointing. The third time I had my uncle walkin to flush it out and a hen flushed. I called the dog back and she walked slow back into the same spot and out comes a rooster. Thank God I actually hit it after all the work she did.

[IainG]

I own two pointing labs and I am invovled with the trainig of a couple more. They are wonderful friends and great to hunt with - whether that is waterfowl or upland.

Bigdog, sorry to hear of your experience. It is definitely NOT what I have experienced. As a recent qualified judge and frequent participant in APLA (American Pointing Lab Association) hunt tests I am also familiar with all the other kennels mentioned here.

With my PL's and the others I am training, we exposed the dogs to birds at an early stage and specifically enhancing / encouraging the pointing behaviour. A high drive dog that initially points will soon learn to lunge for birds if given the opportunity. Especially if the dog gets to capture pen raised birds. All of the dogs I am training will hold point until released as a result of this work.

For the record both of my dogs are from Alma Bottom. Both hold APLA titles with one running at the Master level and the other should be running there next spring. Both also have AKC passes. They also are part of our family with three "human brothers" ranging from 6 - 14. There have been no agressive incidents. I also take them to my medical clinic on a constant basis where they are very popular with my patients.

[Bushwacker]

Welcome to Fishing Minnesota IanG. Your expertise on dog training could be real valuable to a lot of people on this site. Enjoy!

[superfish2]

IainG,

Is there any APLA events around here. I would like to see these dogs in action, and also learn a little more. I went to the MN ALPA club website and everything they have listed is already done.

[JTnT]

Bigdog, I too have a black dog from ABK. Very high drive dog. Maybe the quickest on the outbound leg of a mark I've seen. Covers upland ground like a close working pointer - typical range from 50 to 400 yards depending on the cover and bird density. Hunts like yours, with head up drawing air in through his nose for extended periods. He's a wonderful sweet dog as well. Behaves with my three grandchildren aged a few months to 6 years. Just loves people. He was pointing wings when I first met him at 12 weeks age but it did take some wild bird exposure for him to decide to point those things. Perhaps that was due to the company he kept while growing the first year and a half, but it may be indicative of the effect Iain mentioned.

You spent a LOT of time testing the pup which indicates you wanted a pointing dog. Was there some reason you never worked with your dog's pointing on birds after getting him? From your discription of your selection process and his current hunting, he had great promise. You have apparently hunted him extensively. Have you killed a bunch of birds over his flushes? If not, even at his age, it might be possible to turn him around. If so, this could be more difficult now. I have personally done this with another PL I have (not the one from ABK) and could give you some pointers by email if you contact me.

JTnT

[IainG]

Superfish2

There are effectively two seasons for APLA tests: Spring & Fall (usually April & Sept). We had the first test in the area ever in September. It was well attended and very well organized.

I would expect that we will see a test each spring and fall between MN and western WI. If I am not judging, I will be running dogs.

Bushwacker, thanks for the welcome.

BigDog. Echoing the last post, your dog is probably recoverable if you want to put in the time. It certainly sounds like you have a high drive dog. That is a big plus. (You can't add drive to a dog!) Some work with a pigeons and a check cord would probably set him straight pretty quick.