Posting Land/Handling Trespassers and Neighbors

[deerminator]

It doesn't have to explicitly state that you can enter posted land without permission. It states that you can't enter posted land that is posted according to the subdivisions stated (i.e. According to the posting requirements regarding lettering, signature or contact info, etc). There are legal obligations the landowner has to follow when he posts his/her land if he wants to keep you off and prosecute you if you do not stay off. Yes, it is not ethical to go on land without permission, I agree. But it is going to be almost impossible for a landowner to prosecute someone unless they do THEIR part when it comes to posting and following the laws. My opinion is simply that if a landowner does his part, he can absolutely 100% expect everyone to stay off his land without permission, as it is illegal (by the letter of the law) for anyone to access his land without permission. If the landowner doesnt follow the law regarding posting, then he/she shouldnt be surprised when he/she can't prosecute a "trespasser".

Right, I get that landowners have responsibilities according to the law if they want to make it easier to prosecute. They eliminate any chance for confusion that way. That's the landowner's part. I'm just saying that according to the law, if someone enters your land without your consent, they are trespassing and it is illegal, regardless of whether you have a sign up or not.

[PFUNK]

No, it is not illegal. That's the point that is trying to be made here. If someone enters your private property and it is non-agriculture land that is not legally posted then they are not an illegal trespasser. Non-agricultural private land (i.e. woodlands, grasslands NOT enrolled in CRP, etc) are open to the public for recreational use unless the land owner has chosen to post their land, therefore preventing public use of their land. At least that is the way it seems in the statues/regs. Why else make the differentiation between ag, non-ag, and posting requirements? Reference BobT's post on the bottom of page 2 which is taken from the regulations. Notice that it says ag land does not require posting, but non-ag land must be LEGALLY POSTED to prevent access. It goes on to state that unless the land is posted or the landowner has asked the person to leave and they have refused or have returned again after being told to leave, then there is no criminal trespassing violation to be prosecuted. I guess you can call it trespassing in the sense that they are on private property that isn't theirs, but I don't see how any legal action can be taken against them when clearly, in a legal sense, they haven't violated any statutes. But I could be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[PFUNK]

I should note, when I say it is not illegal that is MY interpretation of the statute that has been posted here several times. Also, while I may interpret it as not illegal that does not mean I would do it, as I have made quite clear. I still feel it is unethical to go on private property without permission. Regardless of posting, the landowner is always able to take legal action if they feel like it, I just don't see how they have a chance of winning any court case unless they have taken the time to legally post their land.

[deerminator]

Ok, I'm not trying to split hairs here but maybe I wasn't being clear. I am just saying, nowhere in the statutes does it say - regardless of land type - that if it isn't posted, its open to public recreation. Nor does it say you have to post to keep people from trespassing. What it does say in multiple places for various land types, that if you haven't asked permission, you are trespassing.

[Jameson]

I'm thinking that at one time basically what is now the entire US was public land. Wanted to have your own private land, post it.

[harvey lee]

If we want to all hunt on private property, how about everyone simply ask? Then close the gates, leave the place as clean as u found it and follow all the landowners rules. Then more could access land as everyone would be polite and respectful. The CO's would have far fewer calls and could spend their time more productive. Seems like a win win for all and more private land could be hunt able. Yes I know that would never work as some would rather just trespass, that's easier than finding the landowner and getting permission. Few years back I needed to find a woods to take my granddaughter youth deer hunting and we had to hunt an area I know no one. spent close to 3 days asking farmers long in advance of the youth season. Finally I got permission to hunt this fellows woods, it can and does work to ask, toucan locate the owners and then get permission. Every season I stop by their place and ask again and always a yes. I also hand deliver a card with a photo of her deer and my granddaughter signs a thank you and I also give them a gift certificate to a supper club for an added thanks. Works great for us and we r always welcome back.

[CaptainMusky]

What it does say in multiple places for various land types, that if you haven't asked permission, you are trespassing.

bingo! And they may face charges because of it.

[delcecchi]

I knew that my post would end up hacking on the Oct 15th rest time...probably not my point though. I will edited it that no one hunts it the first ten years so it makes more sense.

The guys posted it. The locals with dogs hunting grouse were trespassing. That seems pretty clear. I don't get the point of the story. Make it "they never got around to posting it and when they made their annual trip up some guys were grouse hunting. They got all upset that the locals didn't read their minds as to what their intentions were.

And I don't see anything in the MN law about dating the signs or corners torn off etc. Sounds like the local power structure in that area has decided to favor the locals over the outsiders, so they make up reasons not to enforce the law. After all those guys have to live there. Perhaps there is getting to be too much land tied up by outsiders and the locals are getting resentful.

[corncob]

Sounds like you seem to think that they should be able to hunt any land they want, no matter who owns it.....Not proper or legal.

[leechlake]

Del,

I get your twist on the story and I understand the "outsider" thought process also. While I understand it however many times these "outsiders" are funding the local school, as an example, through property taxes. So I as a land owner/cabin owner in Hubbard County pay higher taxes than the local "non-outsiders" and for my contribution I have less of a right to keep people off of my land because I also live in the Twin Cities, heck I was born and raised in Edina, MN which makes it even worse. I'm a true outsider.

In my case though I'm lucky because in 1952 my folks scraped up $500 (dad was a bricklayer) and bought a piece of land and over the years room by room built a small cabin which is a few miles from the place my wife and I bought ten years ago. They moved up there in 1989 and spent so much time up there that eventually they were only quasi-outsiders. I get to leech off of the "street-cred" my folks built up over the years getting to know the local people. I hunt and fish with guys that were born and raised up there. I get the outsider thing. The thing is that if the locals don't like the outsiders then they probably shouldn't take the outsiders "contributions" that impact their life either. Can't have it both ways...although it seems that many times the locals actually do get to have it both ways.

[fivebucks]

Non posted non ag land you will not be successfully prosecuted for trespassing - I know first hand at least based on the trespass laws 20 years ago. I was pheasant hunting a slough area that was 3/4 a WMA and 1/4 private property with nothing posted. There was a very old fence line that was all knocked down and has not been maintained for at least a dozen years. That is pretty typical when someone donates the land to the state for hunting. Long story short I hunted around the whole slough never going onto any ag land. The farmer/owner came out and was livid and being a first class jerk. I apologized and stated I had no idea I was on private property and said I would leave right away. He kept going on and on for about 10-15 minutes just reading me the riot act without letting up. I bit my tongue as long as I could and then told him to go ahead and call the CO. I even gave him my name and address wishing him good luck. He also took my plate number and told him I was not illegal and he could try all he wanted to prosecute me but he had no leg to stand on. So this guy gets the CO out there later and about a week later he contacts me to get my side of the story. I told him and he was able to verify by our boot tracks we did not walk on ag land. The CO told me I was 100% legal. The owner even went to the CO's boss and found out from him also that since his land was non posted non-ag land it was legal for people to hunt it. Believe me if he could have prosecuted me he would have. The trespass laws may have been changed in the last 20 years but I still interpret them to be the same in regards to non-posted non-ag land. I do advocate asking permission whenever possible and as a hunting land owner myself I respect other's property. I do make it a point to post my land though. That's my point of view in this 25 page too long ramble.

[smsmith]

The thing is that if the locals don't like the outsiders then they probably shouldn't take the outsiders "contributions" that impact their life either. Can't have it both ways...although it seems that many times the locals actually do get to have it both ways.

I understand your point...but it doesn't work that way

The "tension" in MN between locals and metro folks (not what they're called by the locals) is pretty much identical to the tension in northeast WI between locals and those folks from Chicago (not what they're called either) or northwest WI between locals and metro folks.

Locals appreciate the influx of money from the big city folks, but they sure aren't going to feel "beholden" to those people.

[harvey lee]

Del

When I was talking about a piece of the sign tore off or missing, I was talking about the North Dakota law, not MN. Just to clear that up.

[Wanderer]

Just a notable from Outdoor News Cuffs and Collars this week:

CO Matt Frericks (Virginia) spent time investigating reports about dumping garbage. By going through the garbage pile, CO Frericks was able to find and piece together enough information to locate the owner of the garbage. Still more deer baits are being found. Reports about people posting state land with “no trespassing” signs are being investigated and monitored.

I've been continuing to follow along with this thread and have quite a bit I'd like to comment on but don't have the time to write a book.

Basically it boils down to problems being caused by a few on both sides of the fence, pun intended. If we all take the time to read and understand the laws and abide by them, and then follow up with being civil to one another, everything can be worked out without too much strife.

One comment I will take the time to make though since I felt compelled to look these things up: Trespassing (real estate) is defined as entering another's land without permission. It's a word, not a crime. The State determines at what point it becomes an infraction of the law. One thing it is NOT for sure is a felony, and moreover not a violent felony. Having a violent felony committed toward your person is the only time self defense by bodily harm is legally acceptable. That is applied equally to landowners and trespassers.

Stay safe out there. We're all in this together whether you agree with the rules or not.

[leechlake]

heck, I'm not asking for anyone to beholden to me one bit. Just don't drive down my 1/8 mile driveway and shoot at a deer by my cabin assuming all the metro folks close their place down after Labor Day.

On a separate note if is funny all the deer that bail out of the woods and hang out by all the cabins. No wonder the guys troll the area. Oh well, I'm going to South Dakota tomorrow for a few days chasing ducks and roosters I'm done ranting for a while

[harvey lee]

As I have said all along, just ask, no problems for anyone.

None of these issues would arise if the largest percentage would simply ask if they can go on another's property. Yes there will always be a few who think they can do as they please but that is a very small percentage. They will never change just like fish hogs.

One can say, I cannot find the owner and I do not know where the property lines are, yes, once in a great while that happens but again, a very small percentage if one takes the time to check it all out.

So simple, maybe this saying might factor in here, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

[bigbucks]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread Harvey. I know there's a difference it legal posting, but a rule of thumb should definitely be if you see any type of posting unless you absolutely 100% know it's public land, stay out. If I ever thought about going on land without permission because the owner wasn't there to ask & saw game to pursue, there's no way I would consider it if there was any type of posted, no hunting, no trespass, keep out sign, you name it. If you can clearly tell the owner's intent, staff off.

I get where private land butts up to public land & can see where it might be hard to tell if it's not posted & think an owner's leaving the door pretty wide open if that boundary's not well marked with postings.

[RK]

Right now on our farm in west central mn we have a trespasser that has been sneaking on to our land to use the stands of a bowhunter that has hunted our land for decades. The guy who hunts our place is very careful in picking which stands he hunts when so he doesn't burn them, but now he has some jack wagon burning his stands anyhow. He's frustrated and my brother who farms there is furious.

In this case there's no way the guy could plead ignorance either. To get where he's been going, he has to at a minimum cross multiple stretches of tilled land, go through stands of trees along the country road that are properly posted then cross tilled land, or cross fences and cross tilled land.

Whether it's posted or not there will always be some who just do not care. It's stuff like this that really turns a landowner off from letting anyone other than family or very close friends hunt there even when they do ask.

I expect I'll also be dealing with wandering hunters during gun season. The guys our neighbor allows to hunt his place seem to have a real problem remembering where the property lines are even though I've showed them several times over the years. In one case the guy was actually sitting in my stand when I went out for an evening sit...

Irony here is the landowner whose land they DO have permission to hunt on is a raving lunatic about trespassers. Posted plastic signs aren't enough for him. Nor is our fenceline. Every couple hundred feet along where his property line joins ours, he has metal posts poured in concrete with sheet metal welded to them, and "No Trespassing" welded into the sheet steel. The posts are all painted fluorescent green. But, he has stands right along the fence line (also made of sheet steel - they look like bunkers), and has no problem shooting over the property line.

Other than trailing a wounded deer we've never trespassed on his place, but when we tell him the guys he has hunting his land trespass on ours all the time, he just shrugs. Some people...

Harvey has the right of it - ask in any case. If you get told no, accept it. Sadly, chances are someone who didn't ask has already poisoned the well ahead of you...

[harvey lee]

You got it RK, many landowners are sick and tired of people thinking they can just walk in without asking and then they close up all the land they own to everyone, that is why I try to tell others to ask. It would be better for all if we all did this.

I know, we have to right to do this and that but in the end, there will be very few acres left to hunt as some believe if it is not posted exactly to the letter of the law, that gives them the right to just walk in. I will never understand that type of thinking.

Please just ask, it is so simple for 99% of the situations out there. Everyone would be better for it.

[delcecchi]

Del,

I get your twist on the story and I understand the "outsider" thought process also. While I understand it however many times these "outsiders" are funding the local school, as an example, through property taxes. So I as a land owner/cabin owner in Hubbard County pay higher taxes than the local "non-outsiders" and for my contribution I have less of a right to keep people off of my land because I also live in the Twin Cities, heck I was born and raised in Edina, MN which makes it even worse. I'm a true outsider.

(snip)

The old "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable". Outsiders may be paying the taxes but they are also making the property unaffordable for locals and sometimes acting like jerkbaits. And some of the locals resent all of those things. Having a "rich cake eating" 612'er post a piece of land that they have been hunting for years can be sort of irritating.

[PropsterII]

Here you go

[smsmith]

Outsiders may be paying the taxes but they are also making the property unaffordable for locals and sometimes acting like jerkbaits. And some of the locals resent all of those things. Having a "rich cake eating" 612'er post a piece of land that they have been hunting for years can be sort of irritating.

Yup. Plus...the locals live there. They know when the metro folks are up and when they're not. That's absolutely no reason to go trespassing, but if a landowner from the cities is a "jerkbait"...be prepared to deal with local disrespect.

[brittman]

Yup. Plus...the locals live there. They know when the metro folks are up and when they're not. That's absolutely no reason to go trespassing, but if a landowner from the cities is a "jerkbait"...be prepared to deal with local disrespect.

Trail cams are helpful on that issue.

[smsmith]

Trail cams are helpful on that issue.

Absolutely. So is not being a jerkbait

[laker1]

I think this topic got twisted about every which way and people forgot what the original question was?

[brittman]

Good dialog though from all facets.

[delcecchi]

Yup. Plus...the locals live there. They know when the metro folks are up and when they're not. That's absolutely no reason to go trespassing, but if a landowner from the cities is a "jerkbait"...be prepared to deal with local disrespect.

Local law enforcement and judges live in the community. They have friends and engage in social activities. That doesn't mean that they won't bust folks for crimes, but I would venture that maybe someone doing a little hunting while the owner isn't around might not be real high priority.

There seems to be a certain tribal nature in some areas up north. Maybe all over the state.

[smsmith]

There seems to be a certain tribal nature in some areas up north. Maybe all over the state.

Not sure about "tribal" or what you'd consider "up north"...but there are definitely ties that run deep in small communities well away from the metro. I'd use "clannish" rather than tribal...but that's probably just semantics.

[delcecchi]

Yes, clannish or close-knit is a better term. I didn't totally like tribal but I couldn't come up with a better word at the time.

[leechlake]

"The old "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable". Outsiders may be paying the taxes but they are also making the property unaffordable for locals and sometimes acting like jerkbaits. And some of the locals resent all of those things. Having a "rich cake eating" 612'er post a piece of land that they have been hunting for years can be sort of irritating."

I guess this must be like a liberal/conservative issue where neither party is going to agree with the other. It is irritating to me when my 14 year old daughter and wife are out at the shed getting some wood and some 218'er blasts a deer in my unaffordable driveway 200 feet from them. But after all his grandpa homesteaded 160 acres in 1903 and when his girlfriend is ahead of me at the grocery store she's using a WIC card. Nice seeing them at the bar on Friday's at 3pm too. Thank God I don't have one of the Million dollar cabins on the lake, I'd really be asking for it then.