Audit Push: Time To Act!

[hockeybc69]

I talked to our next door neighbor at our cabin a couple weekends ago about deer and farming.

He farms 320 acres nearby. He said he has never once had deer damage to any level that he even considered it to be a problem. He is now 62 years old.

He is a deer hunter as well.

Whats so different for him that he has seen all the highs and lows of deer populations and he has never once had damage to a point that he felt it was too much? He said there is surely loss, but on the grand scale he said its so small it doesnt present any concerns and never has.

Is the true problem isolated areas that need to be addressed and quit hammering the entire permit areas if there is hot spots of troubles? I do believe so....

Take care of the localized problems, however it needs to be done and stop the madness of hammering hundreds of sq miles as the method to fix it.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

Get some new ones in and first thing did you shoot any ? no im waiting for a big one . talk doesn't work gave up on that

Thats an easy fix..... when they are invited to hunt they are told this is a doe only hunt. Have fun.

Why would you let anyone on your land without setting the expectations ahead of time?

Thats problem number 1.

[Farmsfulltime]

How about they issue the selected hunters the tags. Then I charge them 100 dollars for every tag they hold payable up front , then I reimburse them 100 dollars for every antlerless they tag and present up to their aloted tags . A little skin never hurts , then if they don't fill , they help pay for the deer damage that im not having. Tried that that didn't work, tried the selected DNR referals also those guys like to look for the big one also, There will probably never be another hunter invited too much trouble, run off the trespassers and live with the damage , shoot a few that we need in the family and complain to the DNR about it and waste my time here ,

[Jameson]

Ok you don't want to shoot too many deer because you don't want to skin all those animals. Me too. I get that.

You have to continue to run off trespassers attempting to hunt off of your property, a property that holds too many deer.

Have you tried running the deer off of the property during firearms season? Get you and maybe someone else together and drive all the deer off of your land in hopes that the neighbors will kill them.

Or are you not truly doing everything you can to avoid deer damage, because you like to have deer to hunt too? You are already getting paid (maybe not enough) for that crop damage by that good hunting you are having. Would you trade no crop damage on your land for no hunting by anyone including yourself on your land?

[Farmsfulltime]

I don't know how much deer driving you have done but im sure that wont work , to much area they aren't cattle, neighbors are already shooting all they want, and of coarse have a few in the area that don't allow hunting as is their right but that makes their land a refuge, also rent farm land in the area don't have a say there on how the deer are harvested . Lots of deer lookers ( want the big one ) there so the hunters that don't invest any thing in crops get an excellent food plot that covers many acres

[Bureaucrat]

I don't know how much deer driving you have done but im sure that wont work , to much area they aren't cattle, neighbors are already shooting all they want, and of coarse have a few in the area that don't allow hunting as is their right but that makes their land a refuge, also rent farm land in the area don't have a say there on how the deer are harvested . Lots of deer lookers ( want the big one ) there so the hunters that don't invest any thing in crops get an excellent food plot that covers many acres

You should buy some dogs from my neighbor. They are aces at running deer off our property.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

also rent farm land in the area don't have a say there on how the deer are harvested .

We have land that we rent to a neighboring farmer. If he says there is too much deer damage, he can go elsewhere and someone else will be right in the line to pick it up and farm it.

We own our land for the primary purpose of drawing and enjoying wildlife. The more the better.

[Farmsfulltime]

Yes you are correct farmers do not have a say on deer damage on rented land but there are a few things we can do , we can lobby hard for reasonable population levels in the area to keep damage down , DNR , or choose crops and harvest timing to lessen deer staying on rented fields with reluctant landowners ect. or we can leave or buy the land and shut it down for hunting anyone with a good balance sheet and a reasonable down and cash flow can buy it including non farmers. Somehow it has came to light that some of the hunting public wants the benefits for wildlife from ag but none of the cost so then they complain that there aren't enough ect but they aren't paying to feed them . Not unusual in this day and age to expect someone else to pay the freight on high populations.

[smsmith]

Yes you are correct farmers do not have a say on deer damage on rented land but there are a few things we can do , we can lobby hard for reasonable population levels in the area to keep damage down , DNR , or choose crops and harvest timing to lessen deer staying on rented fields with reluctant landowners ect. or we can leave or buy the land and shut it down for hunting anyone with a good balance sheet and a reasonable down and cash flow can buy it including non farmers. Somehow it has came to light that some of the hunting public wants the benefits for wildlife from ag but none of the cost so then they complain that there aren't enough ect but they aren't paying to feed them . Not unusual in this day and age to expect someone else to pay the freight on high populations.

What's your dollar estimate in crop depredation loss (to deer...not coons, bears, etc.) last year FFT?

[Farmsfulltime]

For certain in excess of ten thousand last calendar year with current populations whatever that is truly and that wont change at current levels. Does not take in to account feeding that is hard to quantify like alfalfa grazing ect . Would need to cage the forage and extrapolate loss over the acreage, Have never studied that as studying and results are to different things. Its like taxes always a little here and there . Another thought maybe some of the groves and fence that have been removed , are they removed for more crop ground or maybe remove the cover eliminate the crop damage. In other words more crop ground , no cover= no damage, or certainly less damage, Have no knowledge of such but it might be something to consider with growing populations

[smsmith]

And that amount is on how many acres of crops?

[Farmsfulltime]

Doesn't matter how many acres its still ten thousand dollars, what do you do for a living and how much do you gross . I know how popular welfare Is to tax payers think your taxes and increase the welfare rolls by double , We all pay a share of that but no one would wish for more on the rolls similar but different with deer, I want deer here love the animals but cant wish for twice as many

[smsmith]

It does matter how many acres. $10k damage on 500 acres is a heck of a lot different than $10K damage on 5000 acres.

[ANYFISH2]

It does matter how many acres. $10k damage on 500 acres is a heck of a lot different than $10K damage on 5000 acres.

On 500 acres (planted) with a conservative 150 bushel/per acre at 4.50 (corn)a bushel. That is $337,500 in gross revenue. A $10, 000 loss is a 2.9% gross loss. And/or 4.4 bushels per acre.

On 1000 with 150 at 4.50. That is $675, 000. A $10,000 or 1.5% gross loss or 2.2 bushels per acre.

Seems severe at 10 grand, pretty minor considering the other obsticals you farmers may face. Deer in general may be a pretty small issue in the grand scheme of things. There has to be much bigger expenses that are fixable.

Deer have cost me $6,000 this summer alone. I make $32,000. That 19% of my gross revenue. I would still love to see more deer on the landscape.

FFL, I respect your career, your struggles, and your contribution to the "other" side of the discussion.

[creepworm]

Seems severe at 10 grand, pretty minor considering the other obsticals you farmers may face. Deer in general may be a pretty small issue in the grand scheme of things. There has to be much bigger expenses that are fixable.

This statement is very true. However, if deer populations are increased up to 3 times the population in some zones as ssmith has suggested (currently 7 dpsm, wants 20+) we would be looking at 4.5% to 9% loss. The problem then goes from pretty minor to a significant problem.

I believe all farmers are well aware some crop will be lost to critters. (deer, sandhill cranes, raccoons, beaver, etc) Understandably, they would like to keep these losses to a minimum.

Honestly, I am happy to see people such as ssmith and others stand up for what they think and not accept the status quo. However, if deer populations are managed for larger numbers, I do agree with several that have suggested giving people in hot spots nuisance permits to lower the numbers, and that the process of obtaining those tags would have to be quick and fairly liberal amounts of tags would be needed.

I also agree with PF that the hard winters and terrible springs for fawning have had a much greater impact on deer populations than the amount of antlerless deer taken.

[SmellEsox]

One of the problems with guest hunters other than litter, trespass onto neighbors,they all, I mean all want to shoot the big one and sit in the trees all fall looking at all the deer that parade by waiting for the big one not solving population problems by harvesting anything other than the big one , Get some new ones in and first thing did you shoot any ? no im waiting for a big one . talk doesn't work gave up on that

That's surprising. I hunt public land a lot and have never seen a litter problem from deer hunters although I did find a really nice flashlight once and a really nice hunting jacket another time.

[mntatonka]

The picture came out a lot more blurry than I thought, but it still shows some of the damage we deal with. The deer have eaten the tops off most of the stalks before it can tassel. That's on 50-75% of this field, and 25-50% of the neighboring two fields.

[hockeybc69]

Localized problem that needs to be dealt with at a local level.

The entire permit area shouldnt pay the consequences.

Show us pics of other fields in the area. My guess is that most are in great shape.

[mntatonka]

Localized problem that needs to be dealt with at a local level.

The entire permit area shouldnt pay the consequences.

Show us pics of other fields in the area. My guess is that most are in great shape.

I never said it wasn't a localized problem, or that the entire permit area was this way (much of it is though). In fact, I've been an advocate of redrawing the permit areas to reflect localized high/low populations.

In the particular case of 346, it IS an entire permit area problem. Thus the reason that half of the area has an early antlerless season.

[Bear55]

One of the problems with guest hunters other than litter, trespass onto neighbors,they all, I mean all want to shoot the big one and sit in the trees all fall looking at all the deer that parade by waiting for the big one not solving population problems by harvesting anything other than the big one , Get some new ones in and first thing did you shoot any ? no im waiting for a big one . talk doesn't work gave up on that

Setup some rules for your land, each hunter much shoot a doe or three depending on your population goals or they lose the right to hunt there the next year. Have them stop by with every doe to show you the results.

[wally243]

I would assume I have permission to hunt this coming weekend????

[SmellEsox]

Farmsfulltime, I don't know how you can be helped. 5 deer limits didn't help. You don't want other hunters on your land. Driving the herd to 7 dpsm didn't help. You don't want extra tags or nuisance permits for yourself. Sounds like no matter what the management in the zone is, you are going to have too many for your liking. So why do hunters in the zone have to accept substandard hunting even though it won't help you?

[Bear55]

You could fence in all your land and kick out the wildlife if you are that desperate?

[PurpleFloyd]

I also agree with PF that the hard winters and terrible springs for fawning have had a much greater impact on deer populations than the amount of antlerless deer taken.

It is the only factor that meshes with the population swings.none of the other factors mentioned follow the harvest trend lines.

[leech~~]

The picture came out a lot more blurry than I thought, but it still shows some of the damage we deal with. The deer have eaten the tops off most of the stalks before it can tassel. That's on 50-75% of this field, and 25-50% of the neighboring two fields.

Free detasseling, some farmers have to pay for that!

[SmellEsox]

It is the only factor that meshes with the population swings.none of the other factors mentioned follow the harvest trend lines.

In the NE, probably. But research has consistently shown that hunter harvest is the single largest source of mortality for deer. And it isn't even close. OK, when you combine high antlerless harvest with a couple of severe winters, it will be worse. But more deer die from bullets than anything. Can we at least agree on that? When you have high harvest of the animal best equipped to survive these tough winters (adult does), it will have more of an impact on the population.

The problem I also have with your perusing of the harvest data is that when you see antlerless harvest decline, you assume that the population will rise. IMO, that will not be the case if you still have the same effort targeting antlerless deer. Yes, fewer permits may have been purchased, but there were still plenty of them issued to keep the herd from expanding. The only way to allow the herd to expand is to give a low enough number of permits, like we have now, so that recruitment exceeds mortality. It is kind of like lowering the walleye limit from 6 to 4 and thinking their will be more walleyes because of it. In fact, the average angler only catches 1.8 (or whatever it is) so the drop in bag will have no impact on the population. You'd have to drop the bag to 1 to have a population increase. If winter is the main mortality factor, and hunting has no impact or ability to lower a population, why have regs at all? That is kind of what you are saying. Hunting cannot drive down populations. IMO, 5 (or 7) deer limits are basically a free-for-all. With party hunting you can shoot every deer you see pretty much. I have a feeling that can drive down populations.

[smsmith]

But more deer die from bullets than anything. Can we at least agree on that? When you have high harvest of the animal best equipped to survive these tough winters (adult does), it will have more of an impact on the population.

I don't know how a rational person could argue against that

[PurpleFloyd]

It is the only factor that meshes with the population swings.none of the other factors mentioned follow the harvest trend lines.

[Archerysniper]

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[smsmith]

Again...back to the point

If you want to help push the audit forward, simply copy/paste the below, add your legislator's name to the top, and your name to the bottom of this email and add [email protected] to the cc so he can add the elected to the list. Forward any replies you receive from your elected to Brooks using the basecamp addy^^-

ELECTED NAME,

Many in MN are very concerned with the decline in deer numbers in the last 10 years, and in working with the DNR have discovered they either don't know or don't believe the herd has been taken back so far.

Please review the following information, and let us know if you can support the audit described that will be up for review next session.

http://mnbowhunters.org/2014/08/14/is-your-elected-going-to-bat-for-the-states-deer-hunters/

Thank you for your attention, the residents of MN can use your support on this issue.

YOUR NAME

You can find who represents you and how to contact them here: http://www.gis.leg.mn/OpenLayers/districts/