MN deer hunters

[redneckdan]

I'll be the pessimist and say 99,000.

Seeing a few fawns up here. Does look to be in pretty good shape. Seeing about the same number of adult deer as late last summer. Didn’t do a garden this year so not as many eating in our yard this summer. They still raid the bird feeders and the chicken feeder though…. As far as weather I have been hearing rumors of el nino, the warm flavored kind. Possibly warmer than average into feb and then dropping to about normal march into april.

[hockeybc69]

They cant tell me what saturday will be like..... much less next march...

[jerkbait]

They have trouble predicting yesterday's weather.

[hoppe56307]

They have trouble predicting yesterday's weather.

[smsmith]

I'll be the pessimist and say 99,000.

I wouldn't be shocked. If our harvest falls under 100K after being nearly 300K a decade ago....that would be pretty indicative of some major management issues I'd say

[SmellEsox]

I think it will be closer to 150,000.

[smsmith]

I think it will be closer to 150,000.

Could be...I think its pretty safe to say that would be about the maximum this year. We could get there if opening weekend brings ideal conditions.

My guess of 140K is starting to look a bit optimistic to me right now.

[hockeybc69]

150k with the amount of lottery and HC permit areas?

VERY unlikely. Although, I suppose with the cut in permits you will see an increase in Moms, grandmas, or just family members in general buying licenses for the first time in their lives this year..... If you know what I am getting at.....

[WalleyMN17]

Unfortunately you are probably right. We NEED a season of under 100K to help right the ship thanks to years of DNR mismanagement.

[smsmith]

We NEED a season of under 100K to help right the ship thanks to years of DNR mismanagement.

Yup...I'd sure like to see deer groups here start encouraging folks to not shoot does this year..

[bowhunternw]

The deer population is going to go up and down depending on a few factors, there is still a very huntable population. It can bounce back very quick as long as they have the right living conditions. What you should be worried about and see as a real threat to hunting is the loss of habitat. I do have my fingers crossed that e15 doesn't become reality.

People that hunt on a decent sized property and aren't seeing deer well then you either got a habitat problem or too much pressure.

[smsmith]

People that hunt on a decent sized property and aren't seeing deer well then you either got a habitat problem or too much pressure.

Define "decent sized" and "seeing deer" please

I have neither a habitat or a pressure problem. I do "see deer" but nowhere near the number I should be seeing in an area that has this quality of habitat.

The problem is DNR mismanagement...too liberal of antlerless tag allocation. Secondarily the problem is that too many MN deer hunters are happy to buy and fill those tags. Just because the DNR sells antlerless tags it doesn't mean hunters have to buy and fill them.

[hockeybc69]

We are not shooting does except,,,,,,, my daughter who will be hunting her first year and will get her choice of what to do with her tag. Hell if I am going to have her pass a doe to run over to the neighbors and get shot... Hard enough for the rest of us to pass on deer every year and hope they live. My daughter is going to go out and have a good experience, however she would like it to be.

[BuckSutherland]

What you should be worried about and see as a real threat to hunting is the loss of habitat. I do have my fingers crossed that e15 doesn't become reality.

Yep, blame it all on ethanol. Nothing to do with wolves, poaching, brutal winters, urban sprawl and a federal govt that is not renewing CRP contracts. SE MN is full of corn, and guess what?? They have high deer density and giant bucks.

You think the NE part of the state can blame the lack of deer on ethanol?? I didn't think so take your garbage somewhere else.

[hockeybc69]

... you forgot the MN DNRs liberal tag policy to date.... That's the single biggest factor by far.

[LandDr]

I'm not picking sides...but I think it is fair to say that SE Minnesota has a total different landscape than most of the rest of MN. The slopes, contours and soils often do not allow intensive row cropping like you see in other parts of the state. Also, you often see fields not tilled in the fall or only lightly tilled for the sake of soil conservation...this leaves a lot of food out there for wildlife. The ravines, etc. provide a lot of cover and protection from winter elements. It is very different from the intensively cropped areas of other parts of the state.

Ethanol did push the price of crops up...I am not sure how anyone can argue that it didn't. But maybe there is an argument for that case.

But that fact is that if you want to see more deer and healthier deer, then you need to provide thermal cover, food, water, etc...and fewer wolves and fewer cougars for your northern deer hunters.

As I have expressed in the past, we see 20 to 30 deer per stand every time we go out to sit. Why? We have had the same winters as everyone else...BUT...I have implemented fantastic thermal cover on the property with adjacent and protected food sources with ample water, etc. It is like laying in bed with your fridge at your side stocked with your favorite beverages and sandwiches, heater is on and you are set...bring on the inclement weather!

I give seminars daily at Game Fair at 1pm...stop by for some great discussion. Seminar is called "Small Property Management for Whitetails".

[hockeybc69]

How many acres do you have to see that number of deer per sit? I haven't seen 20-30 deer total in probably the last 3-4 seasons total in Ottertail county. Which is kinda sad.

Our area gets lambasted with hunting pressure. That's what I cant control beyond our 120 acres and have done a ton of habitat work on our land.

[LandDr]

This demonstration farm is 160 acres. I have approx 60-70 does and approx 15 bucks. Of these, I usually have 7 doe groups with 5 dominant bucks. One or two dominant bucks are usually 170+, and then so on down.

Come to the seminar...it is an eye opener and it will really get you thinking in a different direction. I discovered this philosophy completely by accident...but it makes all the sense in the world.

I don't worry what my neighbors are doing...if they shoot 5 deer a year per person or farm everything fence row to fence row...it still won't affect my property.

[LandDr]

You will have tough years...but with the proper design, you will at least not go down. On the good years you will gain...but then not go down from there, etc. The design reduces the risk so you don't go back to square one.

The other agencies and organizations have had 20 to 30 years to figure it out, how about try something different?

[BuckSutherland]

You should make a U tub video of the seminar. I would like to hear it. We planted all kinds of trees up north for thermal cover this spring. Also trying to establish some food plots. Resources limited.

[LandDr]

That's a great idea! Hadn't thought of that. I will see what I can do...one of my employees knows how to do video shoots and will be at Game Fair this weekend.

Probably be too nervous with the camera and choke! LOL

[hockeybc69]

How tall is your fence???

We don't have 60-70 dpsm up there(or per 5 sq miles according to the DNR)... So how I would keep number like that or half of that on 120 acres is beyond me. I need some koolaid!!!!!

Seriously though, I suppose its possible, but after planting nearly 10,000 conifers over the last 10 years, 6-8 acres of food plots annually, 15 acres of wetlands, NWSG plantings..... I just don't understand what else can be done to make that number of deer stay within a half mile of us.... much less on the property and never leave to go get the air let out of them on neighboring lands.....

[LandDr]

Ha...that's funny.

Deer are no different than humans when it comes to what you like or what you want.

Girls like wine, crackers, dips and other girls to socialize with.

Boys like girls.

Therefore, does like food, cover, water, bedding, etc. and they will only go as far as needed for these resources. I call them the "Doe Bed & Breakfast". The more intense the B&B, the smaller the home range...the smaller the home range, the more doe groups...the more doe groups, the more dominant bucks. I call that "The Ladies Night"...serve drink specials to the ladies and the boys show up. More girls in the group holds the boys there better so they don't go to the other bar (across the property line in other words). And so on and so on.

You can do a lot of 120 acres!

[LandDr]

My plan and designs require 20 to 30 percent food...and that is "per doe home range". Therefore 120 acres would be 24 to 36 acres of food scattered through the property in the doe home ranges. But it also has to be the right food sources. Then also put a kiddie pool, plastic down or something to provide a water source in each B&B.

You planted conifers...spruce or pine?

Trees take time to grow so there are other things you need to do in the meantime to "thicken up" your B&B until the trees start providing the thermal cover to increase the carrying capacity.

NWSG are great, but what was the mix and what percentages? There are good and bad. NWSG also need to be managed with fire...if you are not going to burn, then don't plant them. Go with thick plantings of dogwood, willow, plum, etc. If you have heavy ground...put some Phragmites in these locations as well to thicken it up.

If you can see through your property...deer are not going to stay there. That is a "travel through" property...rather than "attract and hold". The other day my son said, "Dad, I don't see any deer out at the farm." I smiled and pointed, "What made all of these tracks then!".

The center area of the farm literally smells like Tinks #69!

[hockeybc69]

I had a private forester out to the property on Saturday to get an updated Stewardship plan.

He couldn't commend enough on the things we have done on the property and was thoroughly impressed.

His initial thoughts are to get our buckthorn in check(again), clear cut a couple areas of oaks to bring some age diversity to the oak stand on the property, thin some areas of mature oaks to improve the canopy to improve individual mast production and beyond that not much other change.

The biggest factor that he said that I was already very well aware of..... it takes a lot of time and effort..

There are individual properties located in areas that can do much more than individual properties in other areas. Luck of the draw maybe?

What is this seminar going to show me that we haven't done already? I am a skeptic by nature.

I have been through every agency and done every project possible to date.... And we will continue to expand on everything we have done.

[smsmith]

So to implement your design plan I'd need to log off, bring a dozer with a root rake and a backhoe in, then hire a skidsteer with a rock bucket each spring for perpetuity, probably drain some of my swamps/marshes, and eventually get to planting 17.5 - 26 of my 87 acres?

Not a realistic design plan for me, sorry. To get the land to that point it would cost 10's of thousands in equipment time and to plant/fertilize/lime that many acres every year would be cost prohibitive as well.

[LandDr]

You have done a lot of great projects...more than most...and you should see a few more deer.

But...do the deer stay on your property? If not...then they are going to something better. Why is it better?

Do deer stay the winter on your property? If not...why not?

Initially when I bought this 160 acres, deer did not stay on the property and deer did not winter on the property. By design, I have increased the carrying capacity so now they do stay on the property and they do winter on the property. I am not saying deer have to winter on your property, but by designing more of what they need to do so would greatly increase your carrying capacity to attract and hold deer.

I was a Certified Stewardship Planner at one time. Your forester provided you with sound "forest management" recommendations...he is a forester. Did he talk about thermal cover? Did he talk about food sources? And I don't mean just acorns. I went to a SIP training workshop one time where the training forester said..."you don't need food plots to have deer...". This is true. If you want a "few" deer, then don't include food as one of the primary objectives on the property. I call that "having a package of wieners in the fridge". Not much carrying capacity there...but you will see an occasional deer. If you want to see a lot of deer...you will need to develop the thermal cover, maximize the food sources and provide the bedding and water...without that, you will just see occasional deer and always be at the mercy of Mother Nature.

Very true that some properties have poor soils, steep slopes, wet soils, etc. that do not allow all of the recommended options and therefore will have limitations. I have not looked at the aerial and soils overlay for your property so I am unsure if there are any limitations. Send me your twp, rng and section and I would be happy to take a quick look at it.

[LandDr]

smsmith...I'm not saying you have to do anything. But it is pretty straight forward what deer need to stay on a property. Does need thick thermal cover, food, water and bedding. Bucks want does (during parts of the year that is). If you are not happy with your deer population or what you are seeing...then you need to increase your carrying capacity...otherwise the deer are not just going to magically start using your property more.

If properties have that bad of soils or capabilities, either expectations need to be lowered...or understand it will take work, time and money to get to the desired expectations (if the property can do that)...or sell the property and go buy one that does allow meeting your expectations.

Waiting for the DNR to do what you want or Mother Nature to cooperate will probably not happen...or it will take a lot longer than just taking it into your own hands and make it happen.

There are some programs available to help with cost sharing site prep, clearing, planting, etc. Some pay better than others. But there is some help with the cost.

[smsmith]

Believe me, I do plenty of habitat work and have increased the CC of my acreage. However, since I'm not a millionaire and don't want to destroy 20-30% of my forests and swamps/marshes so I can become a part time farmer...its not a legitimate option for me. "Farming" 17-26 acres every year is not a realistic option for the vast majority of folks. If I had wanted to to that, I'd have bought land SW of I94.

[Farmsfulltime]

I think if we all took care of our deer on our land each of us, instead of being worrying about weather the deer will be shot by the neighbor , in other words manage your herd on your land with harvest and food ect. LandDr is right in my opinion if the tags are out there and the neighbors want to fill fine . If the land carries the deer they wont leave , Im in area 225 plenty of deer here. Winter had no effect at all here they spent all winter in unpicked corn fields staying fat. I have been here 28 years I think the deer population is the highest its ever been here Dnr had intensive here for eight plus years, look at harvest levels across the area less than two average per hunter that actually hunts or registers deer, Most people I see complain about deer population are more concerned about what the neighbor is doing than what they can do , Yes it does cost big, big money to feed them in farm country. don't expect your farming neighbors to pay to feed 40 deer per square mile and you hunt for a few days per year do your part if you want them on your place its a free country invest in your sport